Reversal processing of T-grain films

[avortex]

I've returned to my reversal B&W experiments and I'm trying with more caustic developers (ORWO 824) than before (D11, D19,...).
My goal is to achieve good results without the need of any silver halide solvent in the first developer. It's not that I dislike the look that KSCN gives to the slides (it suits some subjects very well), but there's an evident lose of middle tones and density when compared to the same results without the solvent.
I've been very happy with the results obtained with a "classic" B&W film like Ilford FP4+, but T-grain films or similar ones (Delta 100) seem very hard to beat. Even at 24ºC and 20' of processing time I was only able to obtain dark slides.

Is there any particularity with T-grain films that makes them so difficult to process without the need of an halide solvent? Any ideas?

Thanks in advance!

 

[avortex]

I use light fogging. As a second developer, I've tried several ones: D-72, Orwo 824 and Dokumol. All of them work great, but I like specially Dokumol, as I don't have to mix it and gives cooler tones.

 

[mrred]

Tmax is a film engineered to produce great images from a variety of development processes. That's what i think is wrong with it, as far as reversals go. The first dev is developing the light parts of the image to be bleached away and it is a thick emulsion. It's (my opinion) a waste of a great film for this purpose. The thinner (within reason) emulsion films tend to produce great results with less effort.

If you are still intent on using a tmax film, you will need to use a potent and highly concentrated developer....and / or elevated temps to keep the activity up.

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[Athiril]

This is a modification of another formula, I use for reversal processing of most B&W negative films, it's excellent for T-Max 100 and Delta 100

Metol 2g/L
Sodium Sulphite 36g/L
Hydroquinone 5g/L
Sodium Carbonate (anh) 50g/L
Potassium Bromide 4g/L
Sodium Thiosulphate (pentahydrate) 16g/L

T-Max 100 @ 100 8m 30s at 24 degrees celsius, also for Delta 100, the guy I do it for likes it about at 160 with this process.

T-Max 100 @ 200 6m @ 29 degrees celsius

T-Max 100 @ 50 7m 15s @ 24 degrees celsius



I use a 2 min running water wash after development.

For the second developer, I use actually 2. First I follow up with quite warm solution of catechol and sodium carbonate (each dissolved separately in water and mixed together just prior to use), I leave it in for a while to get as much development as possible.

I make sure to follow up with some print developer or rodinal or whatever you have etc, to make sure silver is fully developed, as sometimes I've found what looks fully developed by the catechol to be really thin after fixing.

On Delta 100, with just a normal redeveloper, I get a D-Max of around 2.3 usually, using the above method with the staining developer (highlights stay clear and nice and bright) it goes up to around 2.9 - 3.0 with fresh film.




The problem with omitting a solvent is you'll need some really strong development to take place of the solvent to make sure there is essentially zero developable halide left for the highlights.


Most negative films are hard to process to a reversal without a solvent, only Fomapan R100 is easy in this regard as it needs much weaker development and without a solvent.

I'd recommend making the developer more concentrated - more developing agent, and make the ratio of metol to hydroquinone to raise the contrast level - and perhaps add just a little bit of solvent like 1 or 2g of thiosulphate to help out just a bit.

 

[avortex]

Thanks! I've been thinking of pushing the temperature, but I was afraid that more than 24ºC could be too much...
The developer is really strong, as I've tried with the Orwo 842 "replenisher":

Sodium Sulfite 55g
Phenidone 0,25g
Hydroquinone 20g
Sodium Carbonate 20g
Potassium Bromide 5g
Sodium Hydroxide 10g
Ph Value 11,2

Perhaps, knowing that it's a thick emulsion, I should do a test at 30ºC...

I really want to use T-Max 100 and Delta 100 due to its amazing sharpness and lack of grain. They would be perfect for my stereoscopic slides.

 

[flavio81]

AFAIK, Tmax 100 is recommended by Kodak for use as a reversal film. They used to make a kit to achieve reversal.

 

[avortex]

Sorry, Athiril, I've read your post after publishing my answer to mrred.

Can you believe that I was going to send you a private message asking for the details of your second developer procedure? I was very curious about it after reading your recipe for Fomapan R100
What quantities of Catechol and carbonate do you recommend?

 

[Athiril]

Never had an issue with 29 degrees on the films I've used at that temp, which includes T-Max 100 and Delta 3200 (neg development), HP5+, FP4+, basically all others I've run at 27 degrees regularly in Xtol replenished as negs, haven't had an issue yet with any of them.

I eyeball mine and just put a bit of each in hot water in separate containers and dissolve, I usually filter the carbonate to make sure there's no undissolved specks just in case. Maybe 10g/L carbonate, and 3g/L catechol would be fine, I run them at a higher temp too to give accelerated development times.

edit: I've also done chromium intensifying, and that extra step is not worth it and can give marks and uneven development on the next step regardless of how careful you are for a net of only 0.3 density gain at max, not worth it, you can always rehal bleach and do another staining dev for much greater density gain if you want even higher dmax.

 

[avortex]

Wow! Thanks a lot for all that great info... I'll try the catechol/carbonate route for sure!
I didn't had a clue about chromium intensifying. But...Would you please tell me more about "rehal bleach and do another staining dev"? Anything that will give me higher Dmax is an interesting thing...

 

[Athiril]

Usually just potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide or even sodium chloride for the rehal bleach, this just bleaches the positive silver image back to silver halide, so you can re-develop again, so if you use a staining developer again, you'll build up even more stain adding to dMax even more.

iirc you can substitute potassium dichromate for ferricyanide (might want to test this though). Chromium intensifier is potassium dichromate and hydrochloric acid, which needs re-developing also.

Don't forget to clear properly with the bleaches to avoid bleach staining.


Something I always wanted to try is lowering the hydroquinone to make a low-contrast developer for low-contrast slides and increase exposure for a high tonal range capture, and keep raising dMax through the above method to raise contrast to normal or high but over the extended tonal range.

 

[avortex]

Again, thanks a lot for such an incredible amount of information! Your knowledge amazes me!

The idea of raising progressively the dmax from a low contrast slide would make for an outstanding experiment. Please, let us know about it if you try someday... The results could be mind-blowing!

So the idea about the rehal bleach is, after the redeveloper step, to bath the film in a solution of Potassium Ferricyanide and Potassium Bromide and re-develop again, then fix. What quantites of each?
Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, but you're opening lots of hidden windows in my darkroom

 

[Athiril]

Same as colour formulas for bleaching is fine, though I tend not to mix it up nearly as strong unless I'm keeping and re-using it a few times, 10-15g/L of potassium ferricyanide, and 10g/L potassium bromide is fine, I tend to run it warm so it goes quicker too. I tend to inspect my film in the bleaching stages to see when its done, and then give it a little extra time on top of what looks visually finished.

 

[avortex]

Many many thanks!
Time for a visit to the drugstore this week...
I hope to update this thread with advances in my experiments very soon!

 

[mrred]

Metol 2g/L
Sodium Sulphite 36g/L
Hydroquinone 5g/L
Sodium Carbonate (anh) 50g/L
Potassium Bromide 4g/L
Sodium Thiosulphate (pentahydrate) 16g/L

This developer contains a high amount of solvent. Isn't this the opposite of what the original questioned asked?

 

[mrred]

Metol 2g/L
Sodium Sulphite 36g/L
Hydroquinone 5g/L
Sodium Carbonate (anh) 50g/L
Potassium Bromide 4g/L
Sodium Thiosulphate (pentahydrate) 16g/L

This developer contains a high amount of solvent. Isn't this the opposite of what the original questioned asked? Dektol and D-19 are stronger developers which would give better milage. The high amount of solvent used here just removes much of the emulsion to be developed. What is the gain?

 

[Athiril]

It's just the one reversal developer I use on a semi-regular basis that provides good quality and contrast with T-Max 100 and Delta 100 in a reasonable time frame at a normal pH working range, and reasonable processing time, temperature and concentration close to box speed. So I'd consider it 'standard'. The formula given above is slightly modified from what someone else had found in an issue of Darkroom & Creative Camera Techniques (Mar/Apr 1988), I gave alternative times with higher temps I tested myself, since I have distaste for long processing times. It gives a good looking image.

Iirc, fully developed, like really driven to maximum development by fogging and strong developer, Delta 100 can hit near 5.0 dMax I think last I tested? Which is what you'd have to do to clear the highlights when reversing with no solvent at all (inc sulphite).

To do that at box speed and not many stops over (even then it'd take very strong development) you need very strong developer and long time, and warm temps. Doubly as you'd probably need restrainer to prevent fogging and ending up with actually a light dMax instead.

I'm sure you could experiment and increase the developer concentration in the formula while reducing the solvent down a bit to gain higher dMax, maybe 3.5 or so, and then maybe 4.5 if you include the staining step.

 

[mrred]

I've never tried to stain, that would be interesting.

The chase for a stronger developer is a road I am still on. Most of my attempts have met in falure. Higher temps are not something I can really chase as I don't have a jobo or a piratical setup to do anything other than room temp.

The best film I have used, for building up density without solvent, was Neopan 400. I have lots left, but unavailable otherwise.

 

[Athiril]

I've never tried to stain, that would be interesting.

The chase for a stronger developer is a road I am still on. Most of my attempts have met in falure. Higher temps are not something I can really chase as I don't have a jobo or a piratical setup to do anything other than room temp.

The best film I have used, for building up density without solvent, was Neopan 400. I have lots left, but unavailable otherwise.

You can just mix one up. If you don't have all the chemicals on hand, you can buy some vitamin C and sodium carbonate from a supermarket etc, and add that to whatever developer you have like Rodinal or something etc to make it stronger.

Higher temps I just sit a plastic jug inside a bigger plastic jug with hot water to bring it up to temp, then pre-rinse with some of the left over hot water + cold water before developing.

 

[avortex]

mrred, unless you live in a really cold place, you'd be surprised on how well the temperature can be mantained in a normal processing tank. I do a lot of E-6 at 38ºC on a common Paterson tank (and a Lomo for cine film) and results are always excellent. Just do a pre-bath at your desired temperature and it should be fine.
For the first developer, I'll keep trying the Orwo 842 "Replenisher" without any solvent, but raising the temperature and keeping longer development times. If I can't find good results that way, I'll start adding, as Athiril suggested, a little of solvent (in my case, KSCN) to help a bit.
Also, I find quite interesting his findings on the re-developing stages. That's an outstanding achievement!

 

[Athiril]

KSCN is generally used in much smaller amounts 1-2g/L would be a normal amount iirc, so I might start at 200mg/L for a small amount.

 

[SMBooth]

Bookmarking

 

[mrred]

Avortex, i have used baths before. I am just used to using my motor base and have gotten rather lazy. As far as a second developer, i tend to use iron-out. It has been the best I have seen with building up density.

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[Axle]

You can get a reversal kit for TMax film from Photographer's Formulary: http://www.freestylephoto.biz/010600-Formulary-TMAX-Reversal-Process-Kit

 

[avortex]

As far as a second developer, i tend to use iron-out. It has been the best I have seen with building up density.

The problem with Iron-Out is that it's not available here in Spain. Besides, I believe that it gives some kind of sepia tint, isn't it?

You can get a reversal kit for TMax film from Photographer's Formulary

Thanks for the input, but again, it's very expensive to ship here. Also, that formula is public and easy to prepare at home.
My goal now is trying to get slides without an halide solvent, and that formula incorporates it.
In a few minutes I'll test the processing at a considerably higher temperature. I'll let you know the results!

 

[mrred]

Iron out does react like a sepia if the film is not adequately washed, bleached, cleared and washed in all steps. But there are other chemical-fogging developers that are easy to make.

Stannous Cloride (SnCL) should be easy to get (I got mine from GB) and can be added to any developer to make it fog. The amount depends on the developer but it does work. I bought 500g which should last me quite a while as it tends to be used in small amounts like phenidone.

Look at (there was a url link here which no longer exists)