Reusing XTOL

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 6, 2017

Rotary processing will exhaust developers faster due to the aeration that happens as the developer is sloshed around. You may end up needing more replenishment volume as a result, or it may be a situation where you'd be better off using Xtol 1+1 one-shot.
As always, testing is in place. I do 5x7 sheets in a Unicolor drum on a motor base, and I have used diluted Xtol as well as the replenished soup, but didn't do enough of it to see the long term effect on replenishment. My normal replenishment rate worked fine for a few runs with no change in developer activity.
If you do try it, then please post your findings. I think most of what Kodak publishes regarding replenishment is for deep tank, which would have much lower oxidation rates. You may be in for some trial-and-error in doing this with rotary tubes. That's all I have to offer based on my experience.

MattKing · Feb 6, 2017

I wouldn't be surprised if Maris' experience with tray developing (90 ml per roll: post #44 in this thread) would provide a good place to start with rotary processing.

KPtheamateur · Mar 11, 2023

I feel like 6 years on from the last comment is an OK time to hijack this thread. Hello, XTOL users!

I've just started using XTOL, done half a dozen rolls in it and it's quickly become a go-to developer for me.

A couple of days ago I was developing a roll of 120 late at night while very tired, and instead of pouring the 500ml of used developer out of the dev tank into the used dev bottle for taking down to the tip, I poured it back into the bottle containing 500 ml of lovely fresh working solution I'd just made up.

Does this mean I've just lost the rest of the working solution? or can I get another roll out of it? What do more experienced heads than mine reckon?

Anon Ymous · Mar 11, 2023

Let me get this straight, you had 1l of Xtol stock, used 500ml (undiluted) of it and poured it back into the bottle, right? This 1l of stock solution can be reused for up to 15 rolls of 135, or 120 film, with extended times at specific intervals. Look it up at the Xtol datasheet.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 11, 2023

1kgcoffee said:
Whipped up a batch of 5L and developed my first roll of film today (stock solution, 6x6). VERY happy with the results looking under the loupe, it has a 3d pop it.

I'm a little confused though... trying to understand how long I can reuse the solution for? I made two containers, one 3L which will be the working solution, and another 2L which will be the replenisher. After using 1/2L today, I poured it back into the working solution.

Question time:
1. How much and how often do I have to replenish.. assuming 1 roll of 120 or 2 rolls of 135 per use?
2. How long is the solution good for.
3. If I want to try diluted 1:1 or 1:2, do I throw out that solution or can it also be reused with the addition of replenisher and how much?
4. Going to try d76 soon as well. Do the same rules apply?

-thanks in advance,
1kgcoffee

Note: for best

1kgcoffee said:
Whipped up a batch of 5L and developed my first roll of film today (stock solution, 6x6). VERY happy with the results looking under the loupe, it has a 3d pop it.

I'm a little confused though... trying to understand how long I can reuse the solution for? I made two containers, one 3L which will be the working solution, and another 2L which will be the replenisher. After using 1/2L today, I poured it back into the working solution.

Question time:
1. How much and how often do I have to replenish.. assuming 1 roll of 120 or 2 rolls of 135 per use?
2. How long is the solution good for.
3. If I want to try diluted 1:1 or 1:2, do I throw out that solution or can it also be reused with the addition of replenisher and how much?
4. Going to try d76 soon as well. Do the same rules apply?

-thanks in advance,
1kgcoffee

Note: for best and most repeatable results, I use all film developers one-shot! Replenishing is guesswork

koraks · Mar 11, 2023

KPtheamateur said:
Does this mean I've just lost the rest of the working solution?

If it's now a 1000ml volume consisting of 500ml used for one roll and 500ml virgin developer, I'd just ignore the little mishap and use the 1000ml as if it was freshly mixed. Honestly, you're not going to tell the difference unless perhaps you systematically perform densitometry and are running a very tightly controlled operation. If, however, this is a typical amateur home darkroom situation, don't sweat it and continue on your merry ways!

Yes, I also like to use my developers one shot for optimal consistency / lowest risk of mishaps just like Ralph above, but in your place, I wouldn't hesitate to do as I suggested above.

bernard_L · Mar 11, 2023

A few questions to experienced users and proponents of replenished Xtol.

1. Indeed, as stated earlier in this thread, the times for seasoned Xtol are close to those for 1+1diluted. From Kodak publication J-109; 400TX
Table 3 (seasoned, large tank) 8½ @ 20°C
Table 1 (1+1, small tank) 9 @ 20°C
Table 1 (F.S., small tank) 7 @ 20°C
1a. Yes, 8½ is closer to 9 than it is to 7. But, Table 3 is for large tank with nitrogen burst at 10s intervals, versus inversions every 30s for small tank processing.
1b. First time use in replenished regime. You are effectively using stock developer. Replenishing is only an intention, but your film does not know your intention. So the proper time should be 7min, not 8½, which is 21% over.

2. I typically shoot ~12 films/year. (digression: I don't take pride in the number of roll I shoot, and before pressing the button, I ask: am I likely take to the time in the darkroom to enlarge that frame, if it turns out as good as I now fantasize).
Sooo: how long can I expect to keep my Xtol in good shape stored in a wine bladder? Storing the working solution in a 2.5litre chemistry-style glass bottle, there remains 2.5 litre replenisher in the wine bladder; at 80ml/film, that is good for 31 films, 2½ years at my assumed shooting rate.

3. Compared with my long-time baseline -- D-76 1+1 -- what benefit would you claim for replenished Xtol? I mix from scratch, one litre at a time. If that matters, I shoot FP4 in 35mm, and Neopan400 (fridge) in MF.

Thank you

aparat · Mar 11, 2023

bernard_L said:
3. Compared with my long-time baseline -- D-76 1+1 -- what benefit would you claim for replenished Xtol? I mix from scratch, one litre at a time. If that matters, I shoot FP4 in 35mm, and Neopan400 (fridge) in MF.

Thank you

I cannot speak to your other questions, but given your volume and the fact that you mix fresh D-76 from scratch when needed, you already have a fantastic all-rounder. I would recommend that you switch to XTOL only if you're unhappy with D76, unless, of course, you're just curious about how XTOL works.

I am a relative newcomer to replenished XTOL and I think it's a great developer. I am still trying to work out the best process with it to match and/or exceed the results I'd been getting with home-brew D-76 for years.

It all comes down to details, and whether or not these details matter enough to you. Here are a few curve families comparing Delta 100 in different conventional developers. As you can see, the details vary, but the overall picture is similar across the board. What is my recommendation? If you already have all the ingredients, try ID-68 (considered to be interchangeable with Microphen). You're going to get excellent performance, with some speed increase. You should probably use it 1+1 because otherwise development times are going to be very short. All the plots below are with rotary processing.

delta100 by Nick Mazur, on Flickr

delta100D76 by Nick Mazur, on Flickr

delta100_id68 by Nick Mazur, on Flickr

delta100_F76 by Nick Mazur, on Flickr

Duceman · Mar 11, 2023

MattKing said:
One of the really big advantages of using replenished X-Tol is that it permits you to always develop at room temperature. Just measure the developer temperature, and adjust developing time accordingly.

You've mentioned this several times in just as many threads. However, with respect to the bolded above, is there some chart or table indicating what to adjust developing time to with respect to temperature? Otherwise, how does one know how to "adjust developing time accordingly"?

Anon Ymous · Mar 11, 2023

@bernard_L If you are shooting that little, there's no point in buying Xtol and even less so to use it replenished. D76 is an excellent developer and Xtol is slightly better, not a day and night difference. If you are willing to scratch mix some Xtol from the patent, then you can try it, but I'd just use it one shot (1+1 is fine). By the way, fresh Xtol has a speed advantage compared to D76, but replenished Xtol doesn't reach the same film speed, there's a little penalty.

Ian C · Mar 11, 2023

Regarding post #59

I assume that the "adjust developing time accordingly" question is with regard to temperature and not due to replenishment. I expect that replenished developer would obey the same temperature/time relationship as does fresh developer.

The small tank temperature/time chart for X-Tol with various films is given on page 6 of the Kodak Alaris J-109 PDF. It also gives charts for rotary processing, large tanks, sheet films in trays and other combinations in the document.

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/J-109_Feb_2018.pdf

MattKing · Mar 11, 2023

Duceman said:
You've mentioned this several times in just as many threads. However, with respect to the bolded above, is there some chart or table indicating what to adjust developing time to with respect to temperature? Otherwise, how does one know how to "adjust developing time accordingly"?

In addition to the datasheet that Ian C references, there are the really excellent Kodak Black and White Darkroom Dataguides, including the Develoipment dials therein. This is from the 1980 version:

I've determined the "Development Numbers" that work for me. You can reverse engineer those from your favourite development time and temperature results and/or the datasheets.
The Dataguides have lots of out of date information in them, due to products - such as all the wonderful Kodak paper samples - that are no longer available. But there is lots of interesting and useful info too.

Sirius Glass · Mar 11, 2023

KPtheamateur said:
I feel like 6 years on from the last comment is an OK time to hijack this thread. Hello, XTOL users!

I've just started using XTOL, done half a dozen rolls in it and it's quickly become a go-to developer for me.

A couple of days ago I was developing a roll of 120 late at night while very tired, and instead of pouring the 500ml of used developer out of the dev tank into the used dev bottle for taking down to the tip, I poured it back into the bottle containing 500 ml of lovely fresh working solution I'd just made up.

Does this mean I've just lost the rest of the working solution? or can I get another roll out of it? What do more experienced heads than mine reckon?

Just continue using the bottle. Either

Adjust the time following the instructions
OR start using the replenishment method by adding 70ml per roll. <=== This is what I do.

Duceman · Mar 11, 2023

Ian C said:
Regarding post #59

I assume that the "adjust developing time accordingly" question is with regard to temperature and not due to replenishment.

Not really, because MattKing has said the advantage of using XTOL-R is that it can simply be used at "room temperature" and "adjust development times accordingly."

MattKing said:
I've determined the "Development Numbers" that work for me. You can reverse engineer those from your favourite development time and temperature results and/or the datasheets.

So, this isn't something that would be exclusive to XTOL-R, as even regular XTOL (or whatever developer that you're using) could be used at whatever temp, and just adjust development time accordingly? Also, if I'm reading your comment correctly, it would require experimentation at each different temperature to determine optimal development time for one's particular taste?

Sirius Glass · Mar 11, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
Note: for best

Note: for best and most repeatable results, I use all film developers one-shot! Replenishing is guesswork

NOT AT ALL GUESS WORK!
Just add 70ml stock solution to the one liter bottle. Pour off some from the bottle, add the 70ml and then use the poured off to top off the bottle. From then on add the 70ml per roll to the partially emptied bottle and top off from the tank and discard the excess. I have used this method and kept the replenished XTOL for years before replacing. Do not waste the developer as one shot. Besides replenished XTOL has finer grain, better tonality and is more forgiving, just use the replenishment times.

Duceman · Mar 11, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
Note: for best and most repeatable results, I use all film developers one-shot! Replenishing is guesswork

This is essentially the same conclusion that I'm (slowly) coming to.

MattKing · Mar 11, 2023

Duceman said:
Not really, because MattKing has said the advantage of using XTOL-R is that it can simply be used at "room temperature" and "adjust development times accordingly."

So, this isn't something that would be exclusive to XTOL-R, as even regular XTOL (or whatever developer that you're using) could be used at whatever temp, and just adjust development time accordingly? Also, if I'm reading your comment correctly, it would require experimentation at each different temperature to determine optimal development time for one's particular taste?

Yes - all films and developers - at least the standard films and non-staining developers that I have experience with.
No, you don't need to do more experimentation with combinations that you are already familiar with.
You arrive at a single time and temperature combination that you like for each film and developer that you use regularly. The datasheet information is fine for that, but you might have fine-tuned that as well.
You use that time ands temperature combination to reverse engineer the Development number for that combination - just align your already determined time and temperature numbers, and the arrow on the wheel points to that number. I find "38" works well for me for X-Tol-R and T-Max 400 and T-Max 100 as well.
Then you use that Development number from then on with that combination.

Steven Lee · Mar 11, 2023

@bernard_L The only reason to replenish Xtol is to save money. At 12 rolls per year you're clearly not going to save much by replenishing. However, replenishing comes at a cost: your results will never be as consistent as one-shot, and there's a slight speed loss.

Steven Lee · Mar 11, 2023

Duceman said:
Not really, because MattKing has said the advantage of using XTOL-R is that it can simply be used at "room temperature" and "adjust development times accordingly."

This has nothing to do with Xtol-R. Most developers have temperature compensation tables that allow you to adjust the development time to ambient room temperature. Very easy. But Xtol-R is less convenient in that regard because there are no useful published times for it for any temperature because every Xtol-R bottle out there is unique in its activity level. This means you're pretty much on your own:

You have to dial in your own development times paired to your replenishment volume which varies over time
You have to dial in your own temperature compensation

Basically it's simply more work to get the same quality as datasheet instructions for 1+1, and it's never as consistent as 1+1 one shot.

MattKing · Mar 12, 2023

Steven Lee said:
Basically it's simply more work to get the same quality as datasheet instructions for 1+1, and it's never as consistent as 1+1 one shot.

On this, we disagree.

KPtheamateur · Mar 13, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
Let me get this straight, you had 1l of Xtol stock, used 500ml (undiluted) of it and poured it back into the bottle, right? This 1l of stock solution can be reused for up to 15 rolls of 135, or 120 film, with extended times at specific intervals. Look it up at the Xtol datasheet.

No, sorry if that wasn't clear. I made up 1l of working solution (1+1), used half to dev a roll of 120 and then poured the now-used half back into the rest of the working solution.

So I now have 1l of working solution comprising 500ml fresh and 500ml used.

I usually use XTOL as a one-shot so I was asking if I'd basically just ruined the working solution.

KPtheamateur · Mar 13, 2023

koraks said:
If it's now a 1000ml volume consisting of 500ml used for one roll and 500ml virgin developer, I'd just ignore the little mishap and use the 1000ml as if it was freshly mixed. Honestly, you're not going to tell the difference unless perhaps you systematically perform densitometry and are running a very tightly controlled operation. If, however, this is a typical amateur home darkroom situation, don't sweat it and continue on your merry ways!

Yes, I also like to use my developers one shot for optimal consistency / lowest risk of mishaps just like Ralph above, but in your place, I wouldn't hesitate to do as I suggested above.

Thanks! I think I'll use it for another roll then scrap it. I definitely am not running a tightly controlled operation or using a densitometer. Strictly amateur home darkroom, but I also didn't want to have a totally unusable roll. Probably just run my next pinhole through it and use a fresh batch for anything critical.

MattKing · Mar 13, 2023

KPtheamateur said:
No, sorry if that wasn't clear. I made up 1l of working solution (1+1), used half to dev a roll of 120 and then poured the now-used half back into the rest of the working solution.

So I now have 1l of working solution comprising 500ml fresh and 500ml used.

I usually use XTOL as a one-shot so I was asking if I'd basically just ruined the working solution.

The 1 + 1 working solution will not keep well.
Whether or not you poured some used 1 + 1 working solution back in with the unused 1 + 1 working solution, you shouldn't expect to get consistency unless the 1 + 1 working solution is used promptly after dilution.

mshchem · Mar 13, 2023

Download XTOL extensive instructions J-109 from https://125px.com/techdocs/kodak/

Everything you need know about XTOL. Diluted developer use immediately. Follow the manufacturer instructions, perfect results

bernard_L · Mar 13, 2023

@ aparat, Anon Ymous, Steven Lee
Thank you for your responses. Saves me the time for running after yet another silver bullet. Tme better spent improving my printing skill.

Reusing XTOL

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