Returning to film

[Jim Noel]

It seems to me that almost every day I read a post from someone who is "Returning to film" after a hiatus to that other stuff. Also I read a good many that are coming into film for the first time, particularly Large Format.

As far as I am concerned, this is always wonderful news. I hope we all accept them with open arms and minds even if their questions might seem a little bit foolish to us. After all, there are not as many good opportunities to learn this craft as there once were.

I wonder if anyone has attempted to keep a count of these people. It might be important information to pass along to our suppliers.

Jim

 

[Roger Hicks]

It seems to me that almost every day I read a post from someone who is "Returning to film" after a hiatus to that other stuff. Also I read a good many that are coming into film for the first time, particularly Large Format.

As far as I am concerned, this is always wonderful news. I hope we all accept them with open arms and minds even if their questions might seem a little bit foolish to us. After all, there are not as many good opportunities to learn this craft as there once were.

I wonder if anyone has attempted to keep a count of these people. It might be important information to pass along to our suppliers.

Jim

Dear Jim,

The trouble is, it's all anecdotal. What people SAY they do, and what they ACTUALLY do, can vary quite widely.

The suppliers find out when people vote with their wallets (or credit cards). The real problem is book (and to a lesser extent magazine) publishers, where you all too often encounter the reaction, "My mind is made up, do not confuse me with the facts." They have considerable power to persuade the ignorant that film is dead...

Cheers,

R.

 

[copake_ham]

Regardless of whether new members/subscribers are returning to film or just discovering APUG, I wonder if Sean could arrange a way for them to receive a "welcome wagon" kind of e-mail from each of the Sponsors?

This would be a way for the Sponsors to "get a foot in the door" regarding supplies and also give them a small reward for helping to support the site.

Sean, any interest in this idea?

 

[PatTrent]

It seems to me that almost every day I read a post from someone who is "Returning to film" after a hiatus to that other stuff. Also I read a good many that are coming into film for the first time, particularly Large Format.

As far as I am concerned, this is always wonderful news. I hope we all accept them with open arms and minds even if their questions might seem a little bit foolish to us. After all, there are not as many good opportunities to learn this craft as there once were.

I wonder if anyone has attempted to keep a count of these people. It might be important information to pass along to our suppliers.

Jim

I'm with you 100% on that. We were all beginners once, and helping them is the right thing to do. Besides, every new (or continuing) analog photog is more assurance that we all will continue to be able to buy film, paper, and whatnot. You were correct in both of your statements.

Pat

 

[bob01721]

"... I wonder if Sean could arrange a way for them to receive a 'welcome wagon' kind of e-mail from each of the Sponsors...?"

I'd be afraid that some might see it as an onslaught of "junk email."

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Perhaps a single email with a list of sponsors, their general product lines, and apug-related discounts (if any) they offer. Make it clear in the email that it is a one-time email.

 

[copake_ham]

Or, re-thinking my thought, PM's from the Sponsors?

That would solve the spam issue.

 

[srs5694]

Regardless of whether new members/subscribers are returning to film or just discovering APUG, I wonder if Sean could arrange a way for them to receive a "welcome wagon" kind of e-mail from each of the Sponsors?

My advice: do not do this!!!!!!!!!! It'd be spam, plain and simple. Just because you think it's in a good cause doesn't mean it's not spam; it'd be unsolicited commercial e-mail, which always qualifies as spam. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but the truly harsh reality is the amount of spam out there. You shouldn't add to the volume. On a note of self-interest for APUG and its sponsors, even if only a small number of recipients would consider such e-mail spam and report it, the result could easily be APUG or its sponsors getting listed on blackhole lists, in spam filtering software's lists of spam domains, and so on. Getting that mess cleaned up would be quite tedious for those involved. It might also give us film users a bad reputation among those who fight spam professionally or on a volunteer basis.

 

[Stephanie Brim]

Today I was reading one of the industry rags that we get at the pharmacy minilab. Picture Business, I think it was. The editor said something about 2007 being the last year anyone should hear anything about the fate of film photography. Something about it already being dead...

I do believe we have 16,000 or so people here who would say that's a rather stupid assumption on his part.

 

[srs5694]

Or, re-thinking my thought, PM's from the Sponsors?

It's not technically e-mail, but it could easily be perceived in the same category. People who join APUG see the sponsors' ads whenever they log in; they don't need more ads cluttering their PMs. No matter your intent in suggesting this, these messages will be perceived as ads by at least some people.

IMHO, the only way something remotely like this would make sense would be if new APUG subscribers got some sort of discount from one or more sponsors. In that case, it'd probably make more sense to include mention of this discount during the sign-up process rather than in a PM, and certainly not in an e-mail.

I know you're just trying to suggest something friendly and helpful, but spam is a big problem, and anything that carries the faintest hint of that odor makes some people (including me) react very negatively.

 

[PatTrent]

My advice: do not do this!!!!!!!!!! It'd be spam, plain and simple. Just because you think it's in a good cause doesn't mean it's not spam; it'd be unsolicited commercial e-mail, which always qualifies as spam. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but the truly harsh reality is the amount of spam out there. You shouldn't add to the volume. On a note of self-interest for APUG and its sponsors, even if only a small number of recipients would consider such e-mail spam and report it, the result could easily be APUG or its sponsors getting listed on blackhole lists, in spam filtering software's lists of spam domains, and so on. Getting that mess cleaned up would be quite tedious for those involved. It might also give us film users a bad reputation among those who fight spam professionally or on a volunteer basis.

I agree that APUG doesn't want to get into being accused of spamming. Perhaps a way to handle this is to have a general forum message or announcement inviting those who are returning to film or just getting started in film to *request* information from APUG, which would be a list of offers from sponsors, etc. That might work, although it will take a lot of someone's time. Ahem!

Pat

 

[Jonathan Brewer]

'I do believe we have 16,000 or so people here who would say that's a rather stupid assumption on his part.'...............

................Yes, I'll never understand why anyone who is an artist doesn't root for the survival of any particular art form that others want to pursue. My ancestors, my family heritage was all on film, I have images of my ancestors on my website in the 'heirlooms' section which are in excess of a 100yrs old.

I'm a member of the Chinese site Paowang, and these great folks love film, use a lot of it, apprecitate it, and appreciate the folks who shoot with it.


I don't worry about the predictions of the death of film, I applaud those that shoot film, paint, sculpt, write poetry, ..............anything that satisfies them and gives them pleasure, and helps them to employ skill in the creation of something that inspires.

I think some of these folks who keep declaring film dead would 'rue the day' if film ever did die, where they couldn't go back if they wanted to, and didn't have a choice, there's a choice now, which is the most important thing.

 

[copake_ham]

It's not technically e-mail, but it could easily be perceived in the same category. People who join APUG see the sponsors' ads whenever they log in; they don't need more ads cluttering their PMs. No matter your intent in suggesting this, these messages will be perceived as ads by at least some people.

IMHO, the only way something remotely like this would make sense would be if new APUG subscribers got some sort of discount from one or more sponsors. In that case, it'd probably make more sense to include mention of this discount during the sign-up process rather than in a PM, and certainly not in an e-mail.

I know you're just trying to suggest something friendly and helpful, but spam is a big problem, and anything that carries the faintest hint of that odor makes some people (including me) react very negatively.

Oh please, I read your first reaction which was already after I posted my revised idea.

The reality is that a PM is like an intra-net corporate e-mail. It would be inside the system! In reality, as the site exists today, any member can PM another member - so any Sponsor could do as I had suggested. My thought was to simply automate this capability as a one-off whenever some newbie registerd on the site!

But that's okay - your "auto reaction" has probably accomplished its deed of killing this attempt to forge a stronger bond between all of us and the Sponsors of the site. If I were one, I'd run for the hills after your posts.

I apologize for trying to "think outside the box" and give up this idea to the narrow, paranoid mindset that prefers we remain well-alienated from each other until we've killed off all concept of community!

 

[Jonathan Brewer]

In fact, if any of you folks want to enjoy a sense of 'community' stretching from here to Bejing(did I spell that right?), go here http://paowang.com/photo/ you don't have to speak Chinese, just click behind the camera icon to start seeing images, the folks on this site shoot with everything, many love film, many particularly like Ilford HP5.

 

[Jonathan Brewer]

For those of you who go to this website, you'll see that the Chinese love photography, I don't know how many members make up Paowang, but Bozeman, the moderator of Paowang was gracious enough to give me upload privileges, and I've had over 4500 views of the 12 images I've uploaded to this site.

There's no telling how many sites there are like Paowang, but I'd say there's a fairly strong element in China that likes film.

I was the first American to join the site, they've given me the nickname
老乔 'Old tall', and I've been able to communicate with the english speaking members and have had my responses translated for everybody else.

Extremely warm and friendly folks, and they're using up a lot of film.

 

[srs5694]

Oh please, I read your first reaction which was already after I posted my revised idea.

I began writing my first post before you posted your second one. Because you raised a new matter in the second post, I thought a second reply was in order.[/QUOTE]

The reality is that a PM is like an intra-net corporate e-mail. It would be inside the system!

This is irrelevant. A PM is very much like an e-mail to the recipient, in that it requires effort to retrieve, unlike the inline ads that are already on APUG. Advertising via either e-mail or PM is not a good idea.

But that's okay - your "auto reaction" has probably accomplished its deed of killing this attempt to forge a stronger bond between all of us and the Sponsors of the site. If I were one, I'd run for the hills after your posts.

Think about it: You join a site and the first thing that happens is you get PMs on the site from its sponsors, presumably containing subtle or not-so-subtle hints that you should shop at these places. Stepping back from whatever warm fuzzy feelings you may have about APUG's sponsors, this sounds a lot like advertising, not "forg[ing] a stronger bond." If sponsors want to forge stronger bonds, they can participate in the group, as many in fact do.

As for your "run for the hills" comment, if that means that sponsors are less likely to engage in spamming, then great. (For the record, I don't mean to imply that any APUG sponsor engages in spamming; to the best of my knowledge none do.) If you mean sponsors will flee APUG, then I don't think so; I find it hard to believe that many businesses can't accept the notion that somebody might object to an unsolicited commercial PM.

I apologize for trying to "think outside the box" and give up this idea to the narrow, paranoid mindset that prefers we remain well-alienated from each other until we've killed off all concept of community!

I take exception to the notion that objecting to spam and spam-ish PMs is "narrow," "paranoid," or "kill off all concept of community." I'm all for a sense of community, but I disagree that a "welcome message" from sponsors, which would inevitably have commercial overtones, would contribute to this.

 

[MattKing]

I think a welcome PM from "management", explaining the history and purpose of APUG, highlighting the support APUG receives from sponsors, directing people to the links to the sponsors and explaining the benefits many of us enjoy because of the sponsors, would both be understood by new members/subscribers, and serve a similar purpose.

All that could be interwoven into a discussion about site etiquette and suggestions for maximizing the benefit of APUG.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that sponsors are encouraged to participate in the forums here.

I never get the sense when I am on photonet or other similar sites that there is any great sense of teamwork between those sites and those who choose to advertise there. APUG seems different, and IMHO it wouldn't hurt to stress the difference.

Matt

 

[kjsphoto]

I am a sponsor here and Sean really works with you and I try to keep active in the forums also. This sire really is different as sponsors are encouraged to get involved.

Kev

 

[Woolliscroft]

The suppliers find out when people vote with their wallets (or credit cards). The real problem is book (and to a lesser extent magazine) publishers, where you all too often encounter the reaction, "My mind is made up, do not confuse me with the facts." They have considerable power to persuade the ignorant that film is dead...

Cheers,

R.

Yes, there is way too much of this. My father phoned me all worried just before Christmas. He had taken some film in for processing and was told that he would have to buy a digital camera soon because "they were going to stop making film after this year" (who "they" were wasn't specified). I get the same from a lot of my students. Photography is fundamental in archaeological recording and for obvious reasons true archival permanance is vital: something digits have yet to prove they can do, which is why so many of us still use film (especially B&W), but the students keep being told by shops that film is dead and they can have digital or nothing.

David.

 

[kjsphoto]

I am getting so sick of these liars. They should be sued or threatened with a lawsuit for out right lying to the public just to earn profits from digital sales. It is just inexcusable and a disgusting business practice..

 

[Justin Cormack]

Perhaps a single email with a list of sponsors, their general product lines, and apug-related discounts (if any) they offer. Make it clear in the email that it is a one-time email.

Dont use email - it is too spammy. But now there are lots of sponsors there are plenty people dont know and at least a few pages classifying them by what they do would be nice.

 

[Uncle Bill]

Perhaps a single email with a list of sponsors, their general product lines, and apug-related discounts (if any) they offer. Make it clear in the email that it is a one-time email.

I think the message crafted properly would not be alienating. I would prefer the PM as opposed to the email for issues of spam.

I would go along the lines of on behalf of........ welcome to world of APUG. We are all very passionate about this medium and welcome you. I would make clear do not be afraid to ask questions.

I would not use the welcome PM as chance as a direct sell the products/services of the sponsors, I would use it as means of creating awarness.

If anything I would do individual features on the sponsors, their product lines, how long they have been in business, when they came on board as a sponsor of APUG and any special pricing/deals for APUG members if they exist.

I do think a welcoming PM would be a good thing considering the size of the community now.

Bill

 

[Alex Bishop-Thorpe]

I got my copy of Camera magazine today in the mail, I got a subscription from my older sister for my birthday. When I started reading it was a pretty well balanced publication, then the next issue the editor's note was about the people complaining they didn't cover enough about film, and the response that there wasn't anything to cover. Then the next issue had basically nothing film related, and today's issue has an article about how film maybe isn't dead but sure looks it, and how people can buy a fine second hand SLR if they want.
I'm getting a subscription to Emulsion, urf.

On that note, maybe we should have a pre-prepared print out about the facts of film to shove in peoples faces the next time we see someone proclaiming film is dead.

EDIT: In, you know...a polite way.

 

[copake_ham]

Yes, there is way too much of this. My father phoned me all worried just before Christmas. He had taken some film in for processing and was told that he would have to buy a digital camera soon because "they were going to stop making film after this year" (who "they" were wasn't specified). I get the same from a lot of my students. Photography is fundamental in archaeological recording and for obvious reasons true archival permanance is vital: something digits have yet to prove they can do, which is why so many of us still use film (especially B&W), but the students keep being told by shops that film is dead and they can have digital or nothing.

David.

Unfortunately, ill-informed (or dishonest) sales reps parrot what they read in the trade mags. And it's likely the trade mags are parroting what their advertisers (e.g. the digi-gear makers) are telling them to say. Remember: "He who pays the piper calls the tune."

Sadly, I don't think there's an effective way to counteract such a concerted effort - at least not by an affinity group like APUG.

 

[srs5694]

Unfortunately, ill-informed (or dishonest) sales reps parrot what they read in the trade mags.

There's also the fact that salespeople want to sell what their store has. This is particularly true when they're on commission -- the salesperson will get a heckuva lot more money out of a $1,000 DSLR sale than out of the sale of $10 worth of film! Dishonesty can be a big factor, too. This wasn't a camera-related issue, but many moons ago I had a salesperson refuse to accept a return of defective audio tapes. He justified this by saying that the then-current issue of Consumer Reports had top-rated that brand. I checked, and they hadn't. (If I'd had my wits about me, I'd have called him on it right there -- the current issue was the April issue, which was devoted entirely to automobiles.) I never shopped at that store again. At least today we've got the Internet, so we can get even pretty obscure materials within a day or so (if we pay for overnight shipping) via Internet retailers, so we're not held hostage to local stores' inventories.