Resurgence?

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aldevo

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I agree with you, Keith.
The "trouble" for the industry is now that people are so used to make photo's for free that they expect prints for unrealistic prices aswell.
If you just want photo's to put onto the internet then a compact or cell-phone will do.
It is like in the day's of 110, Disk and 126: the quality does not matter as long as we have something to remember.....
It is like a sine-wave: the upcomming and demise of a format; some formats like 35mm, 120/220 and 4x5/8x10 seem to be unaffected by it.

For serious photography I believe analogue will be here to stay: digital can not handle everything.

Just the other day an 18 year old showed his new self made 8x10 camera on the Large Format Forum: hart-warming and beautifull made.
Getting our youngsters interested in analogue and it's posibilities will be the greatest chalenge for us.

Peter

If we've hit a longer-term tipping point in the global economy then I think discretionary consumables like film or printer inks are going to have a tough time of it. This is going to hurt any medium where the output is a reflection print; and that means digital as well as analog.

You might, however, see new analog film cameras offered after dedicated digital film cameras are no longer available.

Encroachment by smart phones, a transition to frame capture from video and a decline in disposable income around the world could really catalyze that process, too.
 

Sirius Glass

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I'm starting to here people ask for simple cell phones that do nothing but make calls and last ten years.

I have a cell phone that is only a phone. Never had one with a computer or a digisnap. I have mine set to not accept text messages. KISS!

Steve
 

Sirius Glass

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It's ironic to see how old farts become "digitalibans" and we, the young "peeps", defend the film medium.
/quote]


I learned an new word today => digitalibans

Steve
 

archphoto

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Cell-phones, cellulars, mobieltjes........
I have one in Holland: speech and txt only, in Brazil the same, although my txt on my cellular is pretty useless: my portugese is not so good
and in Holland I don't need txt on my mobieltje, the ones that want to talk to me give me a call, the ones that want to write to me send me a mail: just to keep things simple........

Peter
 

keithwms

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What, you don't smsen on your mobieltje, Peter?! I *hate* long phone conversations and felt really relieved by how widespread texting is in the Netherlands! An amusing thing about dutch is that people in the south around R'dam will text w8ff to say "wait a minute" or kweetniej to say "I don't know"... but then they go to the bother of typing neeuh to say "no" or ookeej to say "ok." Texting always put a big smile on my face over there.

Anyway, on the subject of film-derived output and the (re)entry of digital users into the film market: I am very disappointed by the continuing high price of the higher-end dedicated film scanners, and the lack of new products in that sector. E.g. the Nikons haven't budged one iota, and apparently some are not available at all. At the same time, the prices of used dedicated scanners has remained high and the used scanners have become quite scarce. This is not good at all for anyone wishing to go from digital -> film. It's basically killing that off IMHO. Too bad because newbies to film really need feedback over the web and some convenient way to see what they're getting without having to learn darkroom techniques or shell out big bucks for professional scans.
 

glockman99

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The sad thing here is that many, if not most, of the major camera "names" no-longer have a professional-grade film camera in their current line-up. When I read that Nikon no-longer makes a professional film camera, it made my grip on my FA, F4HPs, and F4s tighten-up somewhat.

Also, as far as 35mm film goes, I cannot find a roll of 35mm Kodak Gold 200 in a 36 exposure roll, without having to go to mail-order. Having to shoot a wedding today, with only 24 exposure rolls isn't something I look forward to.
 

mikebarger

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Hey, while uptown today a guy was asking where he could buy 8 track tapes!! What's old is new again.

Think I'll open a camera shop. :smile:

Mike
 

Prest_400

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Amen.

That is what our buddies need to know.

My $80 N90s with some 400nc can compete nicely with any digicam.

I'll have to do that. I've got 3 experience with 3 friends about photography.
I once had an opportunity that I let it go. A friend of mine said "how nice are those canon reflex" I could have told him that there were great film canons around, but I wasn't in the mood. I could have won a prize with one of my photos that I presented, and a boring landscape photo with just a mini lake and nothing interesting won. I think that I must keep myself far from the snapshooters competitions :rolleyes: The judges were teachers that are nothing more than snapshooters, not art teachers.
Months ago (jan) I had a long conversation with a classmate and he seemed curious about. "Those cameras with big flash bulbs must be expensive"; it started with a "how did you know that doing a pinhole with your hand and seeing through without glasses, eliminates the blurriness", I told him things about apertures and such, and he asked me how did I know that, but we had any talk that touched photography since them.
I got a third one that has heard anything about film that I know. But "the compact is fine for me". His father likes and still shoots film, but just kodak gold and such.
So I've got a pair of problems. 1-Getting the interest into photography and 2-Some are lazy and don't want to exploit their skills.

I agree with the cellphone thing. I'm a weird person among the ones of my age, because I rarely use my cellphone. The one I have has a "mobile webcam" (not camera, look at the quality) but never used it. For 5 calls a year, I don't need anything better.
 

GJA

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Hey, while uptown today a guy was asking where he could buy 8 track tapes!! What's old is new again.

Think I'll open a camera shop. :smile:

Mike

Im perpetually looking for albums on vinyl, and there has been a resurgence there too. It started much longer ago (probably before the take off of digital cameras) however and is slightly different than the film vs digital with regards to mobility, not a generally a problem with film.
 

mikebarger

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My reel to reel gets played at least a couple times a week. It doesn't have an arm strap for jogging though.

Mike
 

Cropline

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......
I believe it's curiosity.....

Took a trip to Rocky Mtn. Ntl. Park last year.After getting my pictures and returning to my vehicle, a young, 21ish Navy seal saw my film camera and started really asking questions.Told him I could get really good 16x20's and if larger wall prints were desired, good 20x30" prints were possible from 35mm.He was amazed that a 35mm FILM camera could do that well.Said he would have to give film a try.
 

aldevo

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I have a cell phone that is only a phone. Never had one with a computer or a digisnap. I have mine set to not accept text messages. KISS!

Steve

You ain't kidding.

True story...

A friend of mine works in the professional services division of a software company that (like many) isn't doing terribly well. One of their clients builds military hardware and their premises are extremely locked-down from a security standpoint

Among four people who could have been chosen to work with the client, my friend got the nod because he happened to have a cell phone on him that day which was NOT outfitted with a camera. The client does not allow any cameras on their premises and the company needed to be able to keep in touch with the consultant in the field.

The other three were laid off the next day.

KISS, indeed.
 
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winjeel

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Wow, I make one small, seemingly insignificant post, and twelve hours and a good night sleep later, 35 interesting replies are made.

One of the best/broadest ways to look for decline or resurgence is in market prices and their trends. I watch these things to try to divine what's a good deal and when to buy/sell.

....

I agree with this point of view, but also, I think the sure sign would be that one of the big makers release a new film camera. Me, personally, I'd be thrilled if a Minolta 7 or 9 was re-released (Sony Alpha 7f ???) But to do that, I'd guess that'd call for quite a bit of retooling of their factories, something that would be more of a long term commitment, than to experiment or satisfy a short term craving.

But to help them (big companies) along a bit, could we consider a count, a survey. My original observation was purely subjective, can we consider a more objective survey?

In any case, I'd be completely shocked if Sony Ericsonn or Nokia made a mobile phone with inbuilt film camera. :tongue: Not sure I'd want to buy that.
 
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glockman99

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I shot a wedding today (using my Nikon F3HP & Nikon F4s), and out of maybe 25 people with cameras, I was the ONLY one there using film...ALL the others were digital P&S cameras...Not EVEN a DSLR in the bunch.

So much for a resurgence in film & film cameras...At-least not today, and not in Aberdeen.:sad:.
 

BetterSense

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I am very disappointed by the continuing high price of the higher-end dedicated film scanners, and the lack of new products in that sector. E.g. the Nikons haven't budged one iota, and apparently some are not available at all. At the same time, the prices of used dedicated scanners has remained high and the used scanners have become quite scarce. This is not good at all for anyone wishing to go from digital -> film. It's basically killing that off IMHO. Too bad because newbies to film really need feedback over the web and some convenient way to see what they're getting without having to learn darkroom techniques or shell out big bucks for professional scans.

I too think that this is what is killing film. If it was easier to get top-notch scans from film, more people would use it. As it stands, there is a "scanning hole" where it's expensive and difficult to get digital files that do justice to the image quality that we know film is capable of, and as long as this continues, people will just use digital cameras to get the files they need. I believe this is a deliberate marketing move by the big players in the photography industry to sell more digital cameras.

A long time ago it used to be difficult to get prints from digital cameras, because all the minilabs were set up for film. You had to make the prints yourself and be technically savvy with computers.

Right now if you want good digital files from film you have to either pay a good sum for a poor-quality photo CD from the minilab, pay several dollars per frame for professional scans, or pay hundreds for a film scanner (if you can find one) and do it yourself laboriously.

We have all seen how easy it has become to get prints from digital...take your memory card to walmart and walk out with prints. This same kind of ease needs to arise for getting digital files from film, and it hasn't yet, and I don't know if it ever will, because there seems to be no financial incentive for the big companies of photography to make it to happen.
 
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The sad thing here is that many, if not most, of the major camera "names" no-longer have a professional-grade film camera in their current line-up. When I read that Nikon no-longer makes a professional film camera, it made my grip on my FA, F4HPs, and F4s tighten-up somewhat.

I'm pretty sure Nikon still makes the F6! I hope I'm not just out-of-date on this...
 

clayne

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I shot a wedding today (using my Nikon F3HP & Nikon F4s), and out of maybe 25 people with cameras, I was the ONLY one there using film...ALL the others were digital P&S cameras...Not EVEN a DSLR in the bunch.

So much for a resurgence in film & film cameras...At-least not today, and not in Aberdeen.:sad:.

The sheep use what the herders tell them to eat. You're dealing with non-photographers who want happy-snap bullshit that will rot away on a phone until it's chucked into a trashcan where it will eventually end up as lead dust in China.

Me cynical? Nah.
 

hoffy

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Interesting thread.

Time to don the flame suit.....

First things first, the my personal opinion is that there is only a resurgence for Film at a high end amateur level only.

In my area, to have a Pro shoot film is very rare now. I only know of one and funny enough, he actually ended up selling his Nikon D3 to buy more film gear! For the rest, there is a perceived thought that working in Photoshop is far more efficient then doing it the old way. Also interesting to note, that the guy I know who still shoots film at a pro level does it Because its easier. His arguement is that with the right film choice he can achieve 95% of what he wants in camera. He sends his films away to a pro lab, they develop and provides proof. For anything else that requires a level of creativeness (selective colouring etc (YUKKK)), he scans and does it in PS. I know of other pros who call him crazy. He just thinks its the smart way of doing things.

OK, now to the bit that requires some flame proof clothing.

For the main resurgence into film at the high end amateur level, you can thank the sudden craze of the affordable Digital SLR camera.

When I began my photography hobby 20 years ago, I learnt a few things by reading a couple books and doing a course at a community college. And that's about it. I understood the relation between shutter, apertuer and film speed and not much else. And that is how it stayed for around 15 years.

About 4 years ago, I bought my first digital SLR....this quickly relegated the film cameras to a zip lock bag and a packet of silicon (why sell them, they were worth nothing). The beauty of a DSLR was that it was far easier to get the results online, share with one of the many communities online. I learnt 5 times more about exposure, composition and general photography within 6 months of owning a DSLR then I had in the previous 15 years. Instead of becoming a SLR owner, I became what I would call a photographer. AND I LOVED IT!!

But with most things, you need to try different things. Out of interest, I got the film cameras out and the rest is history. Last month I didn't shoot a single digital frame. The month before, the only time I shot digital was for a sports event that I was commissioned to do. (I won't talk about this month....the digital is getting a bit more of a workout)

OK, this is my story alone, hardly a resurgence. BUT, I am not the only one. I know of at least half a dozen photography friends (I.E., in my local area) who are doing exactly the same thing. I also know of a few online communities where there are constantly new threads about "Which film camera", "Thinking about getting into film", etc (I know there are a few members from Dyxum here who know what I am on about).

Film will never be mainstream. Its impossible to think that it will.


Yes, I can see the lack of new hardware becoming a problem (I second the thought above. I really wish someone like Sony would make a Film SLR, that is manual focus but took Minolta AF lenses), but as long as companies such as Ilford still make materials, there will always be an interest at the high amateur level.
 

perkeleellinen

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I shot a wedding today (using my Nikon F3HP & Nikon F4s), and out of maybe 25 people with cameras, I was the ONLY one there using film...ALL the others were digital P&S cameras...Not EVEN a DSLR in the bunch.

So much for a resurgence in film & film cameras...At-least not today, and not in Aberdeen.:sad:.

I shot a wedding last weekend (Nikon FM2), my grandmother had her film P&S, I saw two oldish digi P&S cameras and loads and loads of camera phones.

A guy came up to me and asked 'why film', I said there was no quantitative difference at 5"x7" and besides look how small and simple this camera is.
 

Cropline

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I shot a wedding today (using my Nikon F3HP & Nikon F4s), and out of maybe 25 people with cameras, I was the ONLY one there using film...ALL the others were digital P&S cameras...Not EVEN a DSLR in the bunch.

So much for a resurgence in film & film cameras...At-least not today, and not in Aberdeen.:sad:.

I really believe digital P&S cameras are what is hurting the non pro film market,most.They're cheaper than their dslr counterparts,make decent snapshots to 8x10's and you get instant viewing.Plus,they're easily transportable. This,to me, is the main reason film selection and ISO choices have dropped considerably at traditional outlets.
 

markbarendt

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How do we create a resurgence?

So, where do we go from here?

I believe that the root driver toward digital is the general lack of quality expected or needed in the end use of most images; most shots simply don't justify a lot of work (or the end user simply will or can not pay).

I believe this is the same driver that helped photography unseat painting many years ago. The masses may want quality stuff but they don't need lots of quality when they just want something to share and don't think they can afford better.

Tacky is okay when it's your baby you are showing off.

I believe the second driver is peer pressure. Nobody wants to be left behind or left out of the conversation.

The big topics at the camera club I'm in all end up in PS. Fix it in PS is the norm and camera work is reduced to a wild and loose 9-frames-per-second in auto bracket with matrix metering shot in raw so it's fixable spray and pray style.

Nothing wrong with being social around a common interest but most of these people came to the club to get better at photography.

My question is are we focused around photography or looking for magic bullets?

I don't think people in general understand how much easier it is to get better quality from disposable box cameras or $20 P&S 35's; than it is from cheap P&S digitals.

My local Wal-Mart does a fine job for day-to-day snaps this way.

Send that same disposable camera to somebody like Richard Photo lab for processing and you have effectively used a 40mp camera and you get truly professional quality work with exposure and color corrected frame-by-frame.

Invest in a used Olympus, Nikon or Canon and you really have something.

My thought is that we can encourage a resurgence in film use simply by using film ourselves and educating our buddies and acquaintances when they ask.
 

Excalibur2

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Well I haven't left film because what I mainly use a 35mm camera for, haven't found a reason to go digital.
But I do have an old 5mp Sony digital P&S which can be handier than a bulky slr at times, and is far superior to a film zoom P&S, and s/h doesn't cost much more.
 

elekm

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Digital for the consumer is good enough. It gives them instant gratification, and lord knows we're all about instant gratification today. There's no patience or desire to wait an hour or a day to see your photos.

And with mobile phones, the Web and handheld devices and electronic picture frames, quality is secondary. Just getting a photo -- any photo -- is sufficient.

I don't think any newspaper today shoots film. Well, maybe a few here and there or for a special project.

Here's some irony:

A few years back, I was the pack mule for a Sports Illustrated photographer at a football game. They had four or five guys around the stadium, and each photographer shot every play. In all, each photographer probably shot 400 to 500 photos -- RAW + JPG.

At the end of the game, it was faster to have some guy drive from Pittsburgh to New York City with all of the memory cards than to try to transmit 2,500+ photos (RAW+JPG ... roughly 5,000 images) via FTP or whatever.

Getting back to the original argument, I think there has been some natural curiousity about film among younger photographers. Whether curiousity turns into a longer passion or commitment isn't known.

Film is a different experience. And we all know that there are strong positions on both sides of the film-digital fence.
 

Leighgion

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I am shooting more and more film, but I do not believe in the Great Film Resurgence many dream of.

When you look at things objectively, digital photography just offers too much convenience for the masses to give up now that they've tasted it. Argue all you want about film's tangible and intangible advantages, but the simple fact is that all those little conveniences matter and people are willing to give up considerable amounts of other qualities for them. Ordinary folks don't want to fumble around with loading film, carrying film, rewinding film, running out of film, buying enough film and handling negatives. To be fair, why should they want to deal with all that? Most aren't aiming to be artists. They just want some memories, and often don't particularly care of they last a few years, much less beyond their lifetime.

While digital mania has ebbed and digital reality set in, the reality is that digital did not become unseated or even lose ground. It's just that now, you're no longer as ripe a target for ridicule if you admit you shoot film. People are nearly all unfailingly polite to me when they find out I'm "still" using film, even when it's clear they're baffled. I had an amusing moment a couple weeks ago when a 28-year-old asked if she could see the picture I just shot -- with my Mamiya 645 Super. I flipped the camera around and explained that no, I was shooting film. She was obviously a bit disoriented, slightly embarrassed and made no further comment or inquiry.

Roughly half the time I'm politely asked why I choose to shoot film and I get polite attention for whatever explanation I give, but that's been the extent of it. I don't think a single person I've had that conversation with has decided they're going to pick up a film camera, whether for the first time or again, if they weren't already shooting film.

All that said, I don't believe in film doom. The way I look at it, no medium that offers a genuinely unique outlet for artistic expression ever dies. As long as we as a culture are interested in art, artists will always look for the widest array of tools to practice their crafts. Any film resurgence is, and will be, in that realm.
 
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