Respooling bulk film rolls - several questions

[cannotShootStraight]

Hello everyone,

I wasn't aware until recently that 35mm film is also sold in large rolls with several 100ft.
It is a pretty interesting idea to buy such large rolls and then respool them onto 35mm canisters.
I took a look at several YouTube videos where this process is explained but I am left with some questions.

First of all, what bothers me a little bit is that the beginning and the end of each roll is wasted because this part is exposed to light, at least with the respooling machines I've seen.
Is there a way to at least not waste the end of the roll? Which machine is the best for this job?

Second, I am not sure what the better option for canisters is.
Either the reusable, generic black ones or previously used canisters where the new film is attached to the ending that still sticks out of the can?
I've heard the generic black ones aren't totally light safe? On the other hand, I don't have any empty film canisters because the lab throws them away and I only get the developed film.

Third, how do I get the correct DX codes on the can? Unfortunately, my Nikon F75 only reads ISO from the DX code of the can and I can't set it myself.

Fourth, what happens if I have spooled to little film on the can and I have less than 36 frames?
Does my Nikon F75 recognize this? Will it rip the film apart? Do I have to encode this as DX code as well?

Do you guys have experience with respooling from 100ft rolls? Would you say the process is worth the money you saved?

I will probably go easy for my first bulk roll and purchase something like Fomapan 400.

 

[mgb74]

The waste at the beginning of the roll happens with any film, bulk loaded or not. You can avoid the waste at the end of the roll by attaching the film to the canister in complete dark (which somewhat negates the value of the bulk loader) or choosing a loader with a felt trap. The issue is not just wasting the last 1-2 frames, it's remembering not to shoot the last 1-2 frames.

Most cameras will default to iso 100 if no dx coding. If you're using iso 100 film, you're set. If not, you can find dx stickers. Your camera will stop at the end of the roll regardless of length.

 

[koraks]

Welcome to Photrio!

First of all, what bothers me a little bit is that the beginning and the end of each roll is wasted because this part is exposed to light, at least with the respooling machines I've seen.
Is there a way to at least not waste the end of the roll? Which machine is the best for this job?

I generally don't worry about the final few centimeters because that bit is left on the core/spindle anyway and won't be exposed as a frame by the camera. To prevent losing the final frame of a roll, I tape the spindle/core to the tiny bit that sticks out of my bulk loader (generic Watson egg-shape type), then turn off the lights in my darkroom, open the gate on the bulk loader and spool the roll. Then I close the gate and turn on the lights again, and snip off the film for the next round, leaving only about 2cm sticking out of the bulk loader's gate.

I understand the more expensive smaller square loaders (originally AP Bobqinquick I think?) waste a little less film, but I've never used one of those.

On the other hand, I don't have any empty film canisters because the lab throws them away and I only get the developed film.

So your lab is likely to have a big box of cassettes that they're throwing out every other week or so. Ask them to give you a couple of dozen to play with. Or post an ad here on the forum.
Hint: The FujiFilm Superia cassettes from the period 2000-2014 work very well for reuse. Kodak's are a lot more difficult to open without warping the cap.

Third, how do I get the correct DX codes on the can?

You can kludge something with tin foil and painter's tape. See e.g. here: https://www.instructables.com/DIY-film-DX-code-labels/ Or a variety of other online resources. I always just use cassettes with a film speed equal or close to the film's speed, and cameras that allow manual ISO override. A final option is to just accept the 'wrong' ISO and use the exposure compensation on your camera to work around it. Or of course set exposure manually altogether.

Fourth, what happens if I have spooled to little film on the can and I have less than 36 frames?
Does my Nikon F75 recognize this? Will it rip the film apart? Do I have to encode this as DX code as well?

Most modern cameras wont rip your film. They will just rewind when there's too much friction on the film advance motor, assuming that the roll is prematurely finished. And yes, you can accomodate for short roll lengths in the DX code. There are tables online with DX codes that you can create your own custom DX with for whatever ISO + no. of frames you're rolling.

Do you guys have experience with respooling from 100ft rolls? Would you say the process is worth the money you saved?

Yes. And it depends. You don't save all that much on B&W film. On color film it's a different story if you're willing to use Kodak Vision3 film instead of regular C41 film. That can save you lots, potentially. For B&W, it may be useful to be able to test small film strips for exposure/development/camera testing etc. It's flexible.

I will probably go easy for my first bulk roll and purchase something like Fomapan 400.

Sure. You can always upgrade, fortunately.

 

[lamerko]

I gave up on using the bulk loader. For several reasons... I wind the film by hand in total darkness - it's easy and quick with a little advance preparation. I use standard cartridges left over from photo labs. Since I don't use DX encoded cameras, I usually don't care what cartridge I use. You can find an original one with the same code as your photo film.
Foma have 30 and 50 meter bulk rolls. Avoid the 50 meter ones - most bulk loaders won't be able to use them. Two days ago I received my 50m roll directly from Foma - I was surprised that it arrived in a 400ft metal box. In principle, no problem, but with this lack of space in the refrigerators...

So your lab is likely to have a big box of cassettes that they're throwing out every other week or so. Ask them to give you a couple of dozen to play with. Or post an ad here on the forum.
Hint: The FujiFilm Superia cassettes from the period 2000-2014 work very well for reuse. Kodak's are a lot more difficult to open without warping the cap.

To be honest, I don't understand this preference for Fujifilm cartridges. All cartridges work perfectly for me as long as there is a protruding leader to catch the film on.
I have taken whole boxes of cassettes from various places - only a few are unusable. Very often the leader is not seen sticking out, but he is there, at the exit. With a slight turn of the roller, it is displayed. Out of a hundred cartridges used, only 4-5 are unsalvageable.

 

[blee1996]

Bulk loading can be scary for the first time, but quite doable once you get used to it. Just make sure the bulk loader is light tight, and there is no possibility of scratches along the film transport path.

For first timer, just make a short roll (e.g. 12 frames) and test right away. Then you know if your loader and process are all good. Then I typically bulk roll 10-20 rolls, depending on how many empty cassette I have at hand that matches the ISO DX coding.

Since I started developing all my film by myself, I collected a sizable bag of used commercial cassettes and sort them according to ISO. As long as you leave enough film leader, all cassettes have been working well for me.

Don't worry, just do it!

 

[cannotShootStraight]

I wind the film by hand in total darkness

So how exactly are you doing this? I imagine, first attach the new film to the protruding one by tape and then turning the roll inside the cartridge?
But how do you know how many frames you have already loaded and when to stop?

Out of a hundred cartridges used, only 4-5 are unsalvageable.

Okay, that sounds good. 10 cartridges with protruding film cost around 14€, I guess that's fair enough.

Don't worry, just do it!

Thank you! I am still unsure whether to use a bulk film loader or do it by hand how lamerko suggested.

 

[lamerko]

So how exactly are you doing this? I imagine, first attach the new film to the protruding one by tape and then turning the roll inside the cartridge?
But how do you know how many frames you have already loaded and when to stop?

Yes exactly. I use such a crank (example link from eBay). For the frames - I usually do 26-29 full turns. I stop spinning early if it starts to tighten. With 29 turns you can get over 41 shots, usually 27-28 turns are enough for 36 shots.
In order to make my work easier, I prepare in advance in the light - I stick pieces of tape to the leader in the light.

Okay, that sounds good. 10 cartridges with protruding film cost around 14€, I guess that's fair enough.

Look for more ads - for a similar amount you can get a larger number - about 100.

 

[abruzzi]

bulk loading made sense for me because I didn't want 36 exposure rolls, and the cost of 24 exposure rolls (and the lack of shorter rolls) made little sense economically. One thing worth pointing out--I don't know how many labs will develop home spooled rolls, so It really makes the most sense if you're developing at home.

 

[MattKing]

When you are considering this, it is important you understand the differences between film that is designed for motion picture use and film that is designed for still cameras.
Some films are sold in 100 foot rolls specifically for still film use. Examples are the very expensive Kodak black and white offerings, and the more reasonably priced black and white Ilford and Foma and Arista and other offerings.
Anything that comes in bulk rolls designed for motion picture use will lack frame numbers. The shortest lengths normally available for motion picture film is 200 feet - twice the length that will easily fit into most loaders. Some films start at 400 feet.
Historically, it used to be relatively easy to buy "short ends" - essentially left over shorter lengths sold by movie productions who couldn't use the last bits of film - but they are hard to find now.
The only film (that I am familiar with ) that is otherwise identical in the motion picture bulk rolls vs. still fill comparison is Ektachrome 100D.
None of the Kodak or Fuji colour negative still films are available in bulk rolls.
The Kodak motion picture (Vision) colour negative films differ in two other main ways:
1) they incorporate remjet as an anti-halation measure - a backing material that makes them incompatible with standard C41 processing, unless it is removed before processing. Even then, they are actually designed to give lower contrast, and be processed in a similar but different process (ECN-2). With remjet removed, if processed in C41 they give colour images with a colour response that is usable and interesting for some, but not optimal; or
2) in some cases, producers (eg Cinestill) are selling the Vision film modified by removing the remjet before sale. That makes them easily developed in standard C41, but the halation performance is sub-optimal, and there are the same concerns about colour response.
There are a very few specialized labs who will process your still film length Vision films in proper ECN chemistry and deal appropriately with the remjet, but you will sill end up with lower contrast negatives.
There is also one Kodak black and white motion picture film available in 200 and 400 and 1000 foot lengths - 5222/ Double X. In addition to lacking frame numbers, it is technically designed for a motion picture film developer, but many people obtain very satisfactory results developing it in normal still film developers.
Hope this helps.

 

[cannotShootStraight]

Thank you Matt!
I am kinda fascinated that one can buy 400ft worth of film directly from Kodak. But I am also scared by respooling it myself because as unexperienced as I am I might waste the film by an accidental light leak.
I decided to go easy first and try respooling Kodak Double X 16mm to a MEC 16SB I recently bought.
As far as I know this black and white negative film can be developed as usual b&w negatives?

 

[MattKing]

As far as I know this black and white negative film can be developed as usual b&w negatives?

Correct. Technically, it is optimized for development in D96 and to a slightly lower contrast, but practically it seems to work very well when developed like still films.
Based on what I've seen from others, it seems to resemble older Tri-X.

 

[Radost]

XX looks great in Xtol 1:1

 

[Mr Flibble]

To reduce the loss of the last frames on a roll when using a Watson 100 loader, I do the same thing as Koraks:
With as little film protruding from the loader as possible, attach the spool to the film, seal the cassette, but don't seat it in the loader yet.
Turn of the lights/put it in a change bag and open the light trap on the loader, then seat the cassette in the loader, ready for loading.
Turn the lights back on and load as many frames as desired.

I find the AP Bobinquick style loaders are setup to be a little more economical in this way. With less loss at the start/end of the film strip.

 

[Radost]

To reduce the loss of the last frames on a roll when using a Watson 100 loader, I do the same thing as Koraks:
With as little film protruding from the loader as possible, attach the spool to the film, seal the cassette, but don't seat it in the loader yet.
Turn of the lights/put it in a change bag and open the light trap on the loader, then seat the cassette in the loader, ready for loading.
Turn the lights back on and load as many frames as desired.

I find the AP Bobinquick style loaders are setup to be a little more economical in this way. With less loss at the start/end of the film strip.

AP Bobinquick are so much better IMHO.
And since I got a film end cutter I don’t waist time to bulk load and tape.
AP cassettes are very good and cheap. They work with my film end cutter and the time I save is 100% worth it!

 

[YoIaMoNwater]

I think one important thing everyone isn't mentioning is to make sure your bulk loader is in the correct position (e.g. closing and opening the light seal) when cutting and loading the film into the canister. I have an old Watson type and I always double if not sometimes triple check to make sure it's in the correct position so you don't end up exposing the entire bulk roll of film to unwanted light.

Bulk loading is definitely something that sounds more daunting and the more you do it the more comfortable you'll be!

 

[koraks]

I have an old Watson type and I always double if not sometimes triple check to make sure it's in the correct position so you don't end up exposing the entire bulk roll of film to unwanted light.

Conveniently, it has a hardware protection against opening the lid if the film gate is opened. At least, both of my Watson-type loaders (from different brands & vintages) have this. I assume they all do, unless the little lug is broken off or deliberately removed by a previous owner.

 

[Radost]

I think one important thing everyone isn't mentioning is to make sure your bulk loader is in the correct position (e.g. closing and opening the light seal) when cutting and loading the film into the canister. I have an old Watson type and I always double if not sometimes triple check to make sure it's in the correct position so you don't end up exposing the entire bulk roll of film to unwanted light.

Bulk loading is definitely something that sounds more daunting and the more you do it the more comfortable you'll be!

And thus AP bobinquick has only one way of operation. Impossible to light leak or do it wrong.

 

[JerseyDoug]

And thus AP bobinquick has only one way of operation. Impossible to light leak or do it wrong.

Only if you are loading compatible cassettes. The Bobinquick can not close Leica FILCA or IXMOO cassettes or Nikon cassettes, making it unusable for that application except with the loader in a changing bag.