I apologize for being blunt.
And in defense of Ken's slightly testy response...
I just get frustrated when these threads seem to produce the sentiment "It's hard, and therefore IT CAN NEVER BE DONE BY ANYONE EVER AND YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF IDIOTS WHO THINK PRODUCTS JUST HAPPEN BY MAGIC!!1!!one!!". OK, I exaggerate a little, but really only a little.
Well, it's not like we were asked to pick a price; I think most of us assumed they were charging what they needed to! (And in defense of Ken's slightly testy response, I'm pretty sure most of us were already aware that the company needed to make a profit. I also suspect they didn't last for 65 years without noticing that themselves.
We do know that to bring an emulsion to market similar to Efke 100, he and Adox had to evaluate the price, and CHS II 100 ended up being quite a bit more expensive than its ancestor---but not outlandishly so, and we outside observers necessarily don't know how much of the cost increase came from where.
If he turned up with an Adox IR820 with a price similarly scaled up relative to the Efke version, I think plenty of people would be excited---but "plenty" is defined in terms of the market for infrared film, which of course is small.
-NT
I just get frustrated when these threads seem to produce the sentiment "It's hard, and therefore IT CAN NEVER BE DONE BY ANYONE EVER AND YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF IDIOTS WHO THINK PRODUCTS JUST HAPPEN BY MAGIC!!1!!one!!". OK, I exaggerate a little, but really only a little.
-NT
HiKen
It's worse even than that. This sentiment is usually expressed regarding things that have already been successfully done in the past. Given that context, how people can, with a straight face, logically claim absolute impossibility today, is maddeningly beyond me. (Especially when that message is delivered under cover of authority.)
Ken
Yet, you offer your comment with emphasis. Well, I know a bit about the EFKE coating operation and a bit about what is going on in the industry. Don't discount my comments, please.
Basically we have killed a supplier
The 'we' was cause I bought 100 or more cassettes really cheap and did not worry that it was close to production cost until they had passed away.
My appreciation is you did the same hence 'we'.
Have you looked at Ilfords SFX price and spectral response?
The 'we' was cause I bought 100 or more cassettes really cheap and did not worry that it was close to production cost until they had passed away.
Have you looked at Ilfords SFX price and spectral response?
Here are some comments addressing the previous posts: (...)
Making film is a black art...
Honeywell, the supplier of virtually all sensitizing dyes in Europe, ceased production of all dyes about 2 years ago. This was reported on APUG. IDK the extent of their customer list, but I suspect it left a lot of companies scrambling. IDK. I do know that the US price of dyes has been the subject of several threads here, as the price skyrockets to hundreds of dollars per gram.
PE
IIRC Simon did say that Ilford could "easily" make a true IR film; the doubt, which was born out on investigation, was whether it would be economically viable and realistically marketable at a fair profit.
I don't know, but I seem to recall that there were quality control issues with Efke films. Possibly because they didn't have the IR equipment for quality control.
Your bad English reads this:
You give the impression that it is Maco who makes Rerapan when they don't have anything to do with it.
HiKen
Eastmann coated film in 19th century knowing he was going to corner an enormous market by bringing film photography to the masses, he was repeating an experiment done by a third party, to commercialize it.
Doing a new film type cause of contrabanded material on a different machine with different people is still sufficiently difficult that you are going to need several attempts.
Each try is expensive and potential sales volume pitifully small and decreasing. These two make the task impractical not impossible...
The impossible people took over an operating Polariod factory but their 1st product was not a shadow of Polariods and their current product still is a lesser thing. But the kids think it is magic.
They knew that there was a niche market ie available cameras and the c41 labs were dropping like they had the black death.
Far IR is too impractical to borrow money for. Crowd funding might be possible if enough people are rich. But it would be risky.
You would have to put your wallet where your mouth is.
Basically we have killed a supplier and we need to resuscitate him but we have waited too long for the CPR to work, that is my take, but ask Adox they may even have tbe IPR already.
Noel
From the (there was a url link here which no longer exists) by Simon in this very thread (emphasis mine):
"In relation to R&D, we have previously to 2000 produced a number of emulsion models in relation to a true IR film, whilst significant development work would be required to update those models in relation to current raw material availability since originally worked on, it would be possible to produce a film should a R&D programme be progressed.
"The main negative issue is in relation to our own automated emulsion preparation systems that aid 100% batch to batch consistency, this depends on a 'minimum' make that can be coated and / or stored dependant on coated volumes. With an IR film this process control system could not be used as immediate coating is required for an IR emulsion to control levels of base fog which are critical.
"Therefore coated volumes produced would be uneconomical against the investment required, in relation to the size of the worldwide market, even allowing for our ability to coat 'small' volumes.
"Secondary, to have any hope of reaching a commercially viable coated volume it would also mean that the EXTENDED Red film ILFORD SFX would need to be withdrawn if a true IR film was to be embarked upon. This would go against our stated market position where NO ILFORD Photo product in relation to our monochrome ranges will be withdrawn. ILFORD SFX has a very loyal following, and has unique attributes in relation to architectural photography that cannot be replicated with a full IR film."
This is why I have come to so respect Harman. The real answer is, sure, it can be done. We can do it. In fact, we already have a number of models we could begin work from if we decided to do it. But, regrettably, we're not going to do it. And here's precisely why.
Followed by a set of no-BS, straight-up reasons that make perfect sense, even to those who desperately want the product. And, don't forget, a willingness to expend company resources to investigate those reasons. Resources that won't be made up by sales of the product in question.
Ken
From the (there was a url link here which no longer exists) by Simon in this very thread (emphasis mine):
"In relation to R&D, we have previously to 2000 produced a number of emulsion models in relation to a true IR film, whilst significant development work would be required to update those models in relation to current raw material availability since originally worked on, it would be possible to produce a film should a R&D programme be progressed.
"The main negative issue is in relation to our own automated emulsion preparation systems that aid 100% batch to batch consistency, this depends on a 'minimum' make that can be coated and / or stored dependant on coated volumes. With an IR film this process control system could not be used as immediate coating is required for an IR emulsion to control levels of base fog which are critical.
"Therefore coated volumes produced would be uneconomical against the investment required, in relation to the size of the worldwide market, even allowing for our ability to coat 'small' volumes.
"Secondary, to have any hope of reaching a commercially viable coated volume it would also mean that the EXTENDED Red film ILFORD SFX would need to be withdrawn if a true IR film was to be embarked upon. This would go against our stated market position where NO ILFORD Photo product in relation to our monochrome ranges will be withdrawn. ILFORD SFX has a very loyal following, and has unique attributes in relation to architectural photography that cannot be replicated with a full IR film."
This is why I have come to so respect Harman. The real answer is, sure, it can be done. We can do it. In fact, we already have a number of models we could begin work from if we decided to do it. But, regrettably, we're not going to do it. And here's precisely why.
Followed by a set of no-BS, straight-up reasons that make perfect sense, even to those who desperately want the product. And, don't forget, a willingness to expend company resources to investigate those reasons. Resources that won't be made up by sales of the product in question.
Ken
Maybe Ilford can make COLOR IR? :munch:
I think, Tom, that remark of Stone's was what we technically refer to as "a joke."
I'm not even sure he was aware of the old Ektachrome Infrared.
I think, Tom, that remark of Stone's was what we technically refer to as "a joke."
I'm not even sure he was aware of the old Ektachrome Infrared.
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