Reply From HARMAN technology Limited Re True IR Film.

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I apologize for being blunt.

It has nothing to do with being blunt, Noel. It has everything to do with yet another example of trying to prove the truth of a proposition by using reverse inference. That can't happen.

It's the logical equivalent of claiming that the Antarctic glaciers melted and millions of people worldwide were driven from their homes and drowned in the ensuing floods, all because Johnny's mom drove him to school last Thursday in a gasoline-burning automobile. Had she made him walk to school, those damned glaciers would still be there.

One can successfully argue upward from the many specific instances to a single generalized conclusion. But one can't reverse that direction and argue downward that the generalized conclusion is the root cause proof of any one of the specific instances. That's what you are trying to do. That's why your cause-and-effect lines don't meet.

All companies need to make a profit. We all know that. We are not ignorant. But telling me "companies need to make a profit" tells me absolutely nothing about the feasibility of manufacture of the IR film in question. And implying that as the primary reason for the discontinuance of that IR film is a blatant attempt at reverse inference.

What you are saying is that companies need to make a profit, Efke couldn't make that profit by manufacturing IR film, so Efke went out of business.

As if there were no other aggravating circumstances. Except that there were. Read (there was a url link here which no longer exists) by someone with intimate knowledge of the Efke crash-and-burn. No mention whatsoever of IR film as the specific aggravating circumstance.

And still, none of the above addresses the base question posed by Nathan earlier, and subsequently echoed by me.

Ken
 
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And in defense of Ken's slightly testy response...

:smile:

I just get frustrated when these threads seem to produce the sentiment "It's hard, and therefore IT CAN NEVER BE DONE BY ANYONE EVER AND YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF IDIOTS WHO THINK PRODUCTS JUST HAPPEN BY MAGIC!!1!!one!!". OK, I exaggerate a little, but really only a little.

It's worse even than that. This sentiment is usually expressed regarding things that have already been successfully done in the past. Given that context, how people can, with a straight face, logically claim absolute impossibility today, is maddeningly beyond me. (Especially when that message is delivered under cover of authority.)

:sad:

Ken
 

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Well, it's not like we were asked to pick a price; I think most of us assumed they were charging what they needed to! (And in defense of Ken's slightly testy response, I'm pretty sure most of us were already aware that the company needed to make a profit. I also suspect they didn't last for 65 years without noticing that themselves.

We do know that to bring an emulsion to market similar to Efke 100, he and Adox had to evaluate the price, and CHS II 100 ended up being quite a bit more expensive than its ancestor---but not outlandishly so, and we outside observers necessarily don't know how much of the cost increase came from where.

If he turned up with an Adox IR820 with a price similarly scaled up relative to the Efke version, I think plenty of people would be excited---but "plenty" is defined in terms of the market for infrared film, which of course is small.

-NT

I think the your 1st assumption was the problem in shrinking market and a deep recession the little guys were bound to suffer given their local market was hard hit and currency was shifting and they may have had EEC standards to deal with.

Lots of our light factory estates are ghost towns.

But a major problem to an antique coating machine probably a death blow anyway.

I note there was a comment about their QA earlier and repeated web gossip can do a lotta damage to a small guy. All my purchases were perfect, ISO was good, etc.

They may have had a large market to develop the IR film for.

Id try Adox if I were you but probably too late even restarting production with a new coater and the same staff might have killed the IR film some of the chemicals may have been contrabanded as well.

Making film is a black art...
 

Photo Engineer

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I just get frustrated when these threads seem to produce the sentiment "It's hard, and therefore IT CAN NEVER BE DONE BY ANYONE EVER AND YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF IDIOTS WHO THINK PRODUCTS JUST HAPPEN BY MAGIC!!1!!one!!". OK, I exaggerate a little, but really only a little.

-NT

Interesting statement in the face of my post, and rather "blunt" if I may say so. :D

But, we have seen many many manufacturing operations and have seen the pricing on many things from soup to nuts so to speak, but not film. Interesting that so many seem to have opinions here on something they have never done, never seen done and never studied in depth due to the lack of textbooks.

There are texts and courses explaining how to make automobiles, paint, carpeting and a variety of other every day objects, but none on analog film and paper making. (except for one two minor texts) Yet, you offer your comment with emphasis. Well, I know a bit about the EFKE coating operation and a bit about what is going on in the industry. Don't discount my comments, please.

PE
 

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:smile:



It's worse even than that. This sentiment is usually expressed regarding things that have already been successfully done in the past. Given that context, how people can, with a straight face, logically claim absolute impossibility today, is maddeningly beyond me. (Especially when that message is delivered under cover of authority.)

:sad:

Ken
HiKen

Eastmann coated film in 19th century knowing he was going to corner an enormous market by bringing film photography to the masses, he was repeating an experiment done by a third party, to commercialize it.

Doing a new film type cause of contrabanded material on a different machine with different people is still sufficiently difficult that you are going to need several attempts.

Each try is expensive and potential sales volume pitifully small and decreasing. These two make the task impractical not impossible...

The impossible people took over an operating Polariod factory but their 1st product was not a shadow of Polariods and their current product still is a lesser thing. But the kids think it is magic.

They knew that there was a niche market ie available cameras and the c41 labs were dropping like they had the black death.

Far IR is too impractical to borrow money for. Crowd funding might be possible if enough people are rich. But it would be risky.

You would have to put your wallet where your mouth is.

Basically we have killed a supplier and we need to resuscitate him but we have waited too long for the CPR to work, that is my take, but ask Adox they may even have tbe IPR already.

Noel
 

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Yet, you offer your comment with emphasis. Well, I know a bit about the EFKE coating operation and a bit about what is going on in the industry. Don't discount my comments, please.

I appreciate your patience and I plead guilty to a little bit of rhetorical venting. :smile: Actually, your post didn't paint with nearly so broad a brush as that---I read it basically to say "experiments are expensive", which is a perfectly reasonable and relevant statement.

But obviously, whatever the obstacles were, Efke *were* able to climb over them at one point, and it's not like the knowledge of how they did it died with the coating machine. Some posts, partly including your own, seem to assume that it should be obvious to everyone that nothing can be salvaged from those mortal remains---that an Adox or a Ferrania, or I suppose some future "IRmpossible Project", self-evidently *can't* pick up the recipe that Efke were using and try to run with it.

And I agree with Ken that the arguments for that proposition are not in evidence; that it would be technically hard we can all grant, that specific scenarios like Ilford "SFX 820" are out we can grant, and that some amount of up-front R&D costs would pose a feasibility risk we can grant. But new emulsions do happen, including from small operations like Adox---why is it so putatively obvious that IR sensitivity specifically presents insurmountable challenges, not just for Ilford but for all possible actors?

-NT
 

ntenny

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Basically we have killed a supplier

How do you conclude "we"? Personally, I bought a bunch of Efke stuff at the prices they were charging for it; if those prices killed the supplier, I think it counts more as a suicide.

It's a shame---I would have paid significantly more for some of those products, and I think the market interest in their final runs of material suggests others would have too.

-NT
 

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The 'we' was cause I bought 100 or more cassettes really cheap and did not worry that it was close to production cost until they had passed away.

My appreciation is you did the same hence 'we'.

Have you looked at Ilfords SFX price and spectral response?
 

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The 'we' was cause I bought 100 or more cassettes really cheap and did not worry that it was close to production cost until they had passed away.

My appreciation is you did the same hence 'we'.

Have you looked at Ilfords SFX price and spectral response?

And if you had "worried" you'd have done what, sent them a check for some extra money without being asked?

To the extent the demise could be blamed on the price being too low Nathan is right, it was more of a suicide.
 

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The 'we' was cause I bought 100 or more cassettes really cheap and did not worry that it was close to production cost until they had passed away.

But what's the alternative? Send donations? I'm not trying to be obstinate or facetious here, I just don't understand how you rationalize blaming the customer when the supplier underprices.

Have you looked at Ilfords SFX price and spectral response?

I haven't looked at the price lately, but the spectral response poops out much lower than the Efke film did. See the compared curves at http://www.digitaltruth.com/products/product_tests/infrared_film_010.php, for instance.

Rollei reaches higher, but as compared to the Efke film, it does it with a very different curve within the IR range and a much lower "cliff" around 780 nm. I've shot the two side by side through an 89B and found them very different; the Rollei film is a stop or two faster but looks less "IR-y".

-NT
 

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Here are some comments addressing the previous posts:

1. IR sensitizing dyes are pretty much out of production. To order a special batch (say 1 Kg) it would cost on the order of $40,000 to make. You would use that at the approximate rate of 100 mg for every 108 grams of Silver you use, or about 300 mg / Sq Ft (sorry for the units, but that is what we used). The dye will go bad in about 1 year as will the film, so the entire batch must be used up in that time or sold, or you suffer some consequences.

2. IR film requires a green light "hole" in its sensitivity or the use of far IR sensors for scanning for defects. EK, Ilford and Fuji did one of these, but EFKE was limited. IDK what they used, but it was likely the green light "hole" so they could use a green safelight (very dim) for this production.

3. Most complaints here about film defects were about EFKE products (not rebranded - I assume that the people who got those products set a higher standard in their contract).

4. I have posted an example here of a scan of a 16x20 sheet of EFKE film showing regular coating bands due to chatter in the coating drive train or emulsion delivery system(s). This would be difficult to see in 35mm, but just visible on a 120 roll or LF film. This nonuniformity would cause just barely visible defects in negatives shot on such film and IMHO would render the result close to non-usable. Of course, remember that 35 mm was the bulk of their production and thus few might see this defect. Other defects included frilling, pepper grain and a whole host of problems that were posted here, but I have now forgotten.

They underpriced their film, and it was marginal in quality. They made the best stuff for rebranding IMHO.

PE
 

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Here are some comments addressing the previous posts: (...)

Thanks. I did the back-of-the-napkin numbers on your dye estimates, and it sounds like that alone would account for several dollars of material costs per roll of film ($40 per 3.3 sq ft of film)---enough to put a significant bump in the price all by itself. Any insight into whether Efke were already running into that problem, or were they the last customer standing? (IIRC, the price of the IR film did spike a bit late in production, and maybe that was part of the reason.)

-NT
 

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Honeywell, the supplier of virtually all sensitizing dyes in Europe, ceased production of all dyes about 2 years ago. This was reported on APUG. IDK the extent of their customer list, but I suspect it left a lot of companies scrambling. IDK. I do know that the US price of dyes has been the subject of several threads here, as the price skyrockets to hundreds of dollars per gram.

PE
 

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Honeywell, the supplier of virtually all sensitizing dyes in Europe, ceased production of all dyes about 2 years ago. This was reported on APUG. IDK the extent of their customer list, but I suspect it left a lot of companies scrambling. IDK. I do know that the US price of dyes has been the subject of several threads here, as the price skyrockets to hundreds of dollars per gram.

PE

So does Harman/Ilford make their own dyes or source them elsewhere? IIRC Simon did say that Ilford could "easily" make a true IR film; the doubt, which was born out on investigation, was whether it would be economically viable and realistically marketable at a fair profit.
 
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IIRC Simon did say that Ilford could "easily" make a true IR film; the doubt, which was born out on investigation, was whether it would be economically viable and realistically marketable at a fair profit.

From the (there was a url link here which no longer exists) by Simon in this very thread (emphasis mine):

"In relation to R&D, we have previously to 2000 produced a number of emulsion models in relation to a true IR film, whilst significant development work would be required to update those models in relation to current raw material availability since originally worked on, it would be possible to produce a film should a R&D programme be progressed.

"The main negative issue is in relation to our own automated emulsion preparation systems that aid 100% batch to batch consistency, this depends on a 'minimum' make that can be coated and / or stored dependant on coated volumes. With an IR film this process control system could not be used as immediate coating is required for an IR emulsion to control levels of base fog which are critical.

"Therefore coated volumes produced would be uneconomical against the investment required, in relation to the size of the worldwide market, even allowing for our ability to coat 'small' volumes.

"Secondary, to have any hope of reaching a commercially viable coated volume it would also mean that the EXTENDED Red film ILFORD SFX would need to be withdrawn if a true IR film was to be embarked upon. This would go against our stated market position where NO ILFORD Photo product in relation to our monochrome ranges will be withdrawn. ILFORD SFX has a very loyal following, and has unique attributes in relation to architectural photography that cannot be replicated with a full IR film."

This is why I have come to so respect Harman. The real answer is, sure, it can be done. We can do it. In fact, we already have a number of models we could begin work from if we decided to do it. But, regrettably, we're not going to do it. And here's precisely why.

Followed by a set of no-BS, straight-up reasons that make perfect sense, even to those who desperately want the product. And, don't forget, a willingness to expend company resources to investigate those reasons. Resources that won't be made up by sales of the product in question.

Ken
 

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I don't know, but I seem to recall that there were quality control issues with Efke films. Possibly because they didn't have the IR equipment for quality control.

It wasn't just IR, the last batch of 127 100R had the "EFKEitis" rice grain speckles all over it, (IIRC caused by static in the coating machine?) but given the choice between that and no IR at all, I would choose the Rice grains.

Your bad English reads this:

You give the impression that it is Maco who makes Rerapan when they don't have anything to do with it.

Yes, I used google to translate the page into English and the rough translation led me to the wrong understanding, I apologize.

HiKen

Eastmann coated film in 19th century knowing he was going to corner an enormous market by bringing film photography to the masses, he was repeating an experiment done by a third party, to commercialize it.

Doing a new film type cause of contrabanded material on a different machine with different people is still sufficiently difficult that you are going to need several attempts.

Each try is expensive and potential sales volume pitifully small and decreasing. These two make the task impractical not impossible...

The impossible people took over an operating Polariod factory but their 1st product was not a shadow of Polariods and their current product still is a lesser thing. But the kids think it is magic.

They knew that there was a niche market ie available cameras and the c41 labs were dropping like they had the black death.

Far IR is too impractical to borrow money for. Crowd funding might be possible if enough people are rich. But it would be risky.

You would have to put your wallet where your mouth is.

Basically we have killed a supplier and we need to resuscitate him but we have waited too long for the CPR to work, that is my take, but ask Adox they may even have tbe IPR already.

Noel

I do wish some film producers would take the "impossible sales model" of selling inferior film stating that it's inferior, and saying this is it so far, if you buy this, we will make improvements. Instead of scrapping whole batches, I know this sounds counter-intuitive but for "impossible" emulsions like IR, I think selling a faulty IR "Lomo" film would still be better than throwing it out completely, even if it's lower priced, better to make some money than a total loss, and as long as you state the quality ahead if time, expectations would be set properly.

From the (there was a url link here which no longer exists) by Simon in this very thread (emphasis mine):

"In relation to R&D, we have previously to 2000 produced a number of emulsion models in relation to a true IR film, whilst significant development work would be required to update those models in relation to current raw material availability since originally worked on, it would be possible to produce a film should a R&D programme be progressed.

"The main negative issue is in relation to our own automated emulsion preparation systems that aid 100% batch to batch consistency, this depends on a 'minimum' make that can be coated and / or stored dependant on coated volumes. With an IR film this process control system could not be used as immediate coating is required for an IR emulsion to control levels of base fog which are critical.

"Therefore coated volumes produced would be uneconomical against the investment required, in relation to the size of the worldwide market, even allowing for our ability to coat 'small' volumes.

"Secondary, to have any hope of reaching a commercially viable coated volume it would also mean that the EXTENDED Red film ILFORD SFX would need to be withdrawn if a true IR film was to be embarked upon. This would go against our stated market position where NO ILFORD Photo product in relation to our monochrome ranges will be withdrawn. ILFORD SFX has a very loyal following, and has unique attributes in relation to architectural photography that cannot be replicated with a full IR film."

This is why I have come to so respect Harman. The real answer is, sure, it can be done. We can do it. In fact, we already have a number of models we could begin work from if we decided to do it. But, regrettably, we're not going to do it. And here's precisely why.

Followed by a set of no-BS, straight-up reasons that make perfect sense, even to those who desperately want the product. And, don't forget, a willingness to expend company resources to investigate those reasons. Resources that won't be made up by sales of the product in question.

Ken

You're right *sigh*

(Except about the global warming comment, it is that cars fault! Hah!).
 

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From the (there was a url link here which no longer exists) by Simon in this very thread (emphasis mine):

"In relation to R&D, we have previously to 2000 produced a number of emulsion models in relation to a true IR film, whilst significant development work would be required to update those models in relation to current raw material availability since originally worked on, it would be possible to produce a film should a R&D programme be progressed.

"The main negative issue is in relation to our own automated emulsion preparation systems that aid 100% batch to batch consistency, this depends on a 'minimum' make that can be coated and / or stored dependant on coated volumes. With an IR film this process control system could not be used as immediate coating is required for an IR emulsion to control levels of base fog which are critical.

"Therefore coated volumes produced would be uneconomical against the investment required, in relation to the size of the worldwide market, even allowing for our ability to coat 'small' volumes.

"Secondary, to have any hope of reaching a commercially viable coated volume it would also mean that the EXTENDED Red film ILFORD SFX would need to be withdrawn if a true IR film was to be embarked upon. This would go against our stated market position where NO ILFORD Photo product in relation to our monochrome ranges will be withdrawn. ILFORD SFX has a very loyal following, and has unique attributes in relation to architectural photography that cannot be replicated with a full IR film."

This is why I have come to so respect Harman. The real answer is, sure, it can be done. We can do it. In fact, we already have a number of models we could begin work from if we decided to do it. But, regrettably, we're not going to do it. And here's precisely why.

Followed by a set of no-BS, straight-up reasons that make perfect sense, even to those who desperately want the product. And, don't forget, a willingness to expend company resources to investigate those reasons. Resources that won't be made up by sales of the product in question.

Ken

Thanks, I hadn't re-read the initial post since the thread resurrection. I was recalling his comment that started it - we asked for it, he seemed surprised but said, basically, "we could sure do it, not sure if it would make sense though, I'll bring it up and get back to you" and then he did.

And I agree with you. Today's Harman is a straight up operation as far as I can see. Top notch products, wide variety within their niche, realistic prices, excellent availability. There's really nothing not to like about them except that they don't make something you want (like IR or color or whatever) (or maybe for our friends in the UK that they can import Ilford products from the US cheaper than buying them at home. I understand why that's annoying maybe even infuriating, but I doubt the reasons are simple and certainly don't believe the effect could be intentional.)

I like Ilford and I'm slowly converting to almost all Ilford for my black and white.
 

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Maybe Ilford can make COLOR IR? :munch:

Are you planning any helicopter rides over a southeast Asian jungle looking for guerrillas? Color infrared has no consumer use, and Asia is the new America, if "the business of America is business" is a true quote. Color infrared was invented for a purpose, strictly of military worth. With todays' industrial capacity in this country today, even black and white infrared is a high improbability.
 

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I think, Tom, that remark of Stone's was what we technically refer to as "a joke."

I'm not even sure he was aware of the old Ektachrome Infrared.
 

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I think, Tom, that remark of Stone's was what we technically refer to as "a joke."

I'm not even sure he was aware of the old Ektachrome Infrared.

Oh. Didn't think of that. In '76 I was a clerk in a camera store. We kept a whole row of it on the Kodak Film rack. Damn... what was I?--18. 19 maybe?
 

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I think, Tom, that remark of Stone's was what we technically refer to as "a joke."

I'm not even sure he was aware of the old Ektachrome Infrared.

My helicopter must have flown over Toms head :wink:

Yes actually shot a roll of it in Maine and sent it to Praus to develop, it came back blank, I asked him and he said often the transparencies that are very old just don't work, sadly, tonight as a matter of fact, I went to grab that roll for re-rolling and realized it was E-4.... DOH!! neither of us caught that sadly.... I saw ektachrome and just assumed E-6, and you know what they about assuming...

Wish I could have seen how it came out, the base is clean and clear, no fog.
 

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And an egg landed on it with a big plop. Good shot, Stone.:smile:
 
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