Replace PPD by CD-3

Removed Account2 · Oct 20, 2010

Looking at the pictures I see a lot of scanner induced noise?
At first it looked like reticulation, especially OUR picture, but then the XTtol looked much the same, until I noticed the are between light ab shadow and the regular littløe stripes along the border.

Would these look better if enlarged the good old way?

Alan Johnson · Oct 20, 2010

OK,thanks PE.
I thought low pH would be good as less emulsion swelling and grain clumping but if not it maybe worthwhile to try again with sodium carbonate addition to bring the pH to about 8.
More work next week.

Erik they certainly would look better if enlarged the good old way as my flatbed resolution is only ~45 lppm.

Removed Account2 · Oct 20, 2010

Oh only 45 lppm, eh!

We should chip in to give you a decent scanner, considering sterling work done here!
Keep up what you're doing its mighty interesting!

Photo Engineer · Oct 20, 2010

Alan Johnson said:
OK,thanks PE.
I thought low pH would be good as less emulsion swelling and grain clumping but if not it maybe worthwhile to try again with sodium carbonate addition to bring the pH to about 8.
More work next week.

Erik they certainly would look better if enlarged the good old way as my flatbed resolution is only ~45 lppm.

There should be no concern over grain clumping. Most developers are designed to work between pH 8 and 11.

PE

Removed Account2 · Oct 20, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
There should be no concern over grain clumping. Most developers are designed to work between pH 8 and 11.

PE

Save for a few amidol-based oldies, maybe? AFAIR some of them worked in an acid solution.....

Photo Engineer · Oct 20, 2010

As I said "most", not all.

The CD based developers in particular are best between 9 and 11 for films.

PE

Removed Account2 · Oct 20, 2010

You provide a lot of solid info, thank you.

dynachrome · Oct 20, 2010

Many years ago I experimented with Agfa Atomal. I think the current A49 developer is either a replacement for it or a successor. It has either PPD or one of the color developer components, I don't remember which. The grain is very fine. There is speed loss. You might just want to try this before you try to make up a developer from scratch.

Photo Engineer · Oct 20, 2010

Unfortunately, a good developer should not lose speed to gain its desired result of finer grain or better sharpness. One can only hope that the final developer optimzes Grain, Sharpness and Speed to the max possible. With PPDs this could be quite rewarding to the adventuresome. This is especially true of their use in B&W processing.

Unfortunately, much of the real data on PPDs is not in any text. This includes Mees, Mees and James and Haist among others.

PE

Gerald C Koch · Oct 21, 2010

dynachrome said:
Many years ago I experimented with Agfa Atomal. I think the current A49 developer is either a replafine cement for it or a successor. It has either PPD or one of the color developer components, I don't remember which. The grain is very fine. There is speed loss. You might just want to try this before you try to make up a developer from scratch.

One of the developing agents in Atomal (the developing agent also called Atomal) was a "chemical orphan" whose only use was as a developing agent. When demand for it disappeared it was no longer produced commercially. The formula for A49 replaces it with one of the color developing agents. So in reality A49 is not Atomal. it is something else.

The problem with fine grain developers is that nothing is free in photography. In order to get fine grain you must lose something else; resolution, speed, tonality, etc.

Removed Account2 · Oct 21, 2010

What was the chemical composition of Atomal, the developing agent? Is it in any way related to whats in todays A49 or has it other close relatives?

Photo Engineer · Oct 21, 2010

Atomal is N-(hydroxy ethyl)-o-amino phenol.

PE

Athiril · Oct 21, 2010

Erik Prestmo said:
Oh only 45 lppm, eh!

We should chip in to give you a decent scanner, considering sterling work done here!
Keep up what you're doing its mighty interesting!

That's extremely generous for a flatbed scanner, I rate mine at 31 lpmm, for my V500... though not a topic for here

I was considering doing a grain comparison on 35mm, can get 157 lp/mm done for grain-peeping purposes.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 22, 2010

Kodak Fine Grain Developer

I dug out my notes on a fine grain CD-3 based developer. The following formula is from a Kodak patent US2193015.

Sodium sulfite 30.0 g
CD-3 5.0 g
Sodium carbonate, monohydrate 35.0 g
Water to make 1 l

Develop 20 min @ 18 C

Photo Engineer · Oct 22, 2010

Jerry;

To be fair, it should be mentioned that Arnold Weissberger was describing color developers in that patent, and even as such the formulas were incomplete. For B&W work that developer solution would be very weak. For color, it would probably be quite foggy and probably not very active.

This is the seminal patent for CD-3, in case anyone is interested. Internally, it was D2W or D2 modified by Weissberger. The technical classification was D109B IIRC.

On a side note, Arnold Weissberger was a personal friend of Einstein, Bohr and a number of other greats from chemistry and physics. I shared an office with his son for years, and Arnold used to drop in to talk with us. His son had an autographed photo of all of the greats from one of the conferences in the 30s in England. It hung on our office wall.

This was one of the great persons in the history of Organic Chemistry and his multi volume set on Organic Synthetic Chemistry was and is the gold standard for Organic Chemists who need to synthesize something from scratch!

PE

Gerald C Koch · Oct 22, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Jerry;

To be fair, it should be mentioned that Arnold Weissberger was describing color developers in that patent,
PE

PE

Just rechecked and the patent specifically says that the formula that I gave is used as a black and white fine-grain developer. It goes on to say that all 3 formulas given can be used for that purpose.

The formula may be incomplete they sometimes do that in patents. However it details just how much carbonate is needed with CD-3 to produce a working B/W developer. I gave the formula as a starting place for a CD-3 based developer.

I am still looking for the formula for the Kodak special developer I mentioned previously.

RobertV · Oct 23, 2010

Atomal is N-(hydroxy ethyl)-o-amino phenol.

Exactly, .... and not available anymore.

When going to ultra fine grain developers try one of these:

And for sure, interesting how it will compare with Xtol (Kodak) /Excel W27 (Foma/Foton).

Removed Account2 · Oct 23, 2010

Gerald C Koch said:
I dug out my notes on a fine grain CD-3 based developer. The following formula is from a Kodak patent US2193015.

Sodium sulfite 30.0 g
CD-3 5.0 g
Sodium carbonate, monohydrate 35.0 g
Water to make 1 l

Develop 20 min @ 18 C

And what I'm going to do this winter is changing CD-3 in this formula with 10g of ascorbic acid, adding 1g KBr per litre to control fog.

Since the carbonate reacts with ascorbic acid, changing it into ascorbate, I'd do as I do with Caffenol, dissolve the carbonate in part of the water, adding ascorbic acid to that solution, watching for a color change, then adding this solution to the sulfite, topping up to 1 litre.

The sodium sulphite should enhance the keeping qualities of the solution, ascorbic acid developers are usually held to be fine grain but lo0w in keeping qualities.

I'm looking for a fine grain developer, that are easy to find the chemicals, I'm perfectly happy with loosing a full stop in ISO, even two...

Erik

RobertV · Oct 23, 2010

I'm looking for a fine grain developer, that are easy to find the chemicals, I'm perfectly happy with loosing a full stop in ISO

Try W665 (Windisch), based on Ortho-Phenylene Diamine (OPD). I did some tests with Fomapan Creative 200 (E.I. 100) and Rollei Pan 25. 777 Panthermic is also possible but this developer is based on Para-Phenylene Diamine (PDD). You have to find out yourself which (modern) emulsions are responding well on these old type ultra fine grain developers.

A modern liquid type is CG-512/RLS. It's working nice in rotary development too at 24C. Very easy in handling, based on Metol and Sodiumsulfite. Most films are reacting very well on this Udo Raffay receipt. Also 1- 1 1/2 F stop speed loss.

Athiril · Oct 23, 2010

I made an Asorbic Acid developer (well asorbate.. ) with no sulphite and no other developing agent, the grain was really really rough, though the film was in bad shape (old high speed film), but Rodinal results were like silk compred to it.

But it was likely due to the high contrast nature, which developed an old foggy high speed film that'd give highlights really close to shadows in density even in high-contrast scenes, this developer managed to stretch a 3-stop range over a large density range.

Removed Account2 · Oct 23, 2010

The trouble for me is that I live out in the sticks in more than one sense - Norway is far off, sparsely populated to boot. Getting any kind of chemicals into the country might or might not be a hassle. I live in a far corner of Norway, out in the sticks, there is NOTHING of this sort around here.

But I can find ordinary chemicals in the country, including sulphite. Thats why I'm looking for specific alternatives to developing agents. If I'm to import CD-2 or CD-3 (which would be a dream over here), I probably need to team up with other afficinados over here and try to get in a substantional amount.

RobertV · Oct 23, 2010

But I can find ordinary chemicals in the country, including sulphite. Thats why I'm looking for specific alternatives to developing agents. If I'm to import CD-2 or CD-3 (which would be a dream over here), I probably need to team up with other afficinados over here and try to get in a substantional amount.

No problem to get it in small amounts from Germany or the Netherlands.

OPD is not really cheap in Photographic grade but also not really expensive. Products like Sodium Carbonate or Sodium Sulfite are really cheap. Sometimes it can be replaced in decahydrate Soda which you can buy at the supermarket. You just have to do the molweight calculation.

RobertV · Oct 23, 2010

Fomapan T200 (E.I. 100) in W665, 9:45 Min. at 20C.
Very fine grain for this iso 200 film which is a combination of cubical and hexagonal halogenide crystals.

Photo Engineer · Oct 23, 2010

Gerald C Koch said:
PE

Just rechecked and the patent specifically says that the formula that I gave is used as a black and white fine-grain developer. It goes on to say that all 3 formulas given can be used for that purpose.

The formula may be incomplete they sometimes do that in patents. However it details just how much carbonate is needed with CD-3 to produce a working B/W developer. I gave the formula as a starting place for a CD-3 based developer.

I am still looking for the formula for the Kodak special developer I mentioned previously.

Jerry;

That formula is only referring to the free base of the developing agent, and it really really is a color developer in that context. The formula will develop a silver image, but that is about it. In fact, 2 of the 3 examples are color. And, if you read the claims, they are directed to color imaging only.

The mention of B&W there is merely to preclude someone else from patenting these types for B&W if later someone found a special property in B&W. Well, they did but didn't patent it. The work remains incomplete.

PE

Gerald C Koch · Oct 23, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Jerry;

The mention of B&W there is merely to preclude someone else from patenting these types for B&W if later someone found a special property in B&W. Well, they did but didn't patent it. The work remains incomplete.

PE

Patent lawyers! Thanks for the information.

Replace PPD by CD-3

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