RA-4 Not getting the results I want..

[Mike Chalmers]

I started this discussion here but things have progressed so I thought it would it clearer to start a new post about the actual issue.

I'm not getting close to the results I am seeking and I've done a good amount of testing and it's driving me a bit crazy.

I've started (at least) to get consistent results and have my system pretty well set, but the issue are my blacks not being dark enough no matter what I do.

I've attached 2 images, one with a test portrait I did with a colour card and one that is just testing enlarger exposure without any negative in the holder (at 10, 20, 30 and 40 seconds at f5.6). As there's no clear difference in the steps, I assume 10seconds is already max exposure.

I thought the issue with the portrait was underdevelopment, but I doubled the dev time and the blacks were no darker. The only difference was a bit of colour shifting and the paper going a bit browny orange, which may have been to the blix which I also doubled the time on.

*The images I've attached I put on top of my darkroom book which has a jet black cover, for reference.

*I've tried using another image but same results. Is there any way this could be due to slightly underdeveloped negatives due to developer not being hot enough?

*My Kodak Ektacolor BLIX part A has condensed in the bottle at the bottom. I have to filter out bits with coffee filter. Could this impact the blacks?

*These are the only chemicals I've used and will be trying new ones soon (but not soon enough).

I did a 2-day course a couple of years back to learn the basics but flying blind since I started my own home printing recently and I'm hitting a wall so any advice would be appreciated.

1. Blacks test. As explained above

2. 8 sec exposure

3. 10 sec exposure

4. 12sec and 14sec exposure

5. On the right is a scan of the negative with auto settings to test - blacks darker but a brighter image. I don't want to be scanning or using hybrid workflow, I just wanted to give an example.

Thanks!

 

[BMbikerider]

Mike as you are in London, do you want to give me a call and I can talk it through with you. I have done over 30 yrs using RA4 so I may be able to help. It is much easier than typing everything back and forward. My number is 07833 705652

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Mike as you are in London, do you want to give me a call and I can talk it through with you. I have done over 30 yrs using RA4 so I may be able to help. It is much easier than typing everything back and forward. My number is 07833 705652

That's really good of you, is tomorrow afternoon any good for you?

 

[koraks]

My Kodak Ektacolor part A has condensed in the bottle at the bottom. I have to filter out bits with coffee filter.

That's obviously not OK. And yes, the developer may just have gone bad on you. Sometimes it's possible to revive a somewhat shoddy developer by adjusting the pH, but results may still not be optimal. Get some fresh stuff.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

That's obviously not OK. And yes, the developer may just have gone bad on you. Sometimes it's possible to revive a somewhat shoddy developer by adjusting the pH, but results may still not be optimal. Get some fresh stuff.

Apologies, I meant to say the Ektacolor BLIX part A.. I *believe* the dev is okay.

Also, the final image is side-by-side with a negative scan if that wasn't clear (I've gone back and edited for clarity).

 

[Patrick Robert James]

If you expose a piece of paper to light then develop it you will know if your developer is bad. Kinda looks to me like your negs are underexposed/underdeveloped, but I am not an expert on RA4.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

If you expose a piece of paper to light then develop it you will know if your developer is bad. Kinda looks to me like your negs are underexposed/underdeveloped, but I am not an expert on RA4.

Patrick, did you see my notes and image #1? This is what I did and I'm still not sure.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Here's another negative I just printed that I know to be exposed and developed correctly. I chose this strip because I know it to be high contrast and I included part of the portra frame for colour reference.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

*I've tried using another image but same results. Is there any way this could be due to slightly underdeveloped negatives due to developer not being hot enough?

RA-4 development time can be extended if running at a lower temperature, eg 2 minutes @ 20ºC etc. I've been doing 1 minute in a Jobo at 35ºC.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The negative scans seem to indicate low contrast.

The blix precipitate should not do this. If any thing, it should increase contrast while decreasing contrast, but that takes a lot of decomposition.

PE

 

[btaylor]

My experience with RA4 is that everything needs to be spot on to get consistent satisfactory results. If there is any question as to the condition of your chemistry throw it out and buy fresh. Buy fresh paper (Fuji or Kodak) from a store that has fresh stock. Keep your tools clean so you don’t have any cross contamination. Process at consistent temperatures. No light leaks from the enlarger or reflections from the wall or your easel. When I have deviated from these rules I wasted a lot of my time and energy. Why are there blue stains on some of the borders?
When you dial it in it will be a lot of fun.

 

[koraks]

Why are there blue stains on some of the borders?

Looks like wet spots on the paper sticking to the scanner platen.

I'd check developer pH to make sure it's at the mark.

As to the developer chemistry; is this a developer that requires a starter? If so, did you add it? Otherwise pH ends up way too high.
Do you reuse (and replenish) the developer or use it one shot?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Looks like wet spots on the paper sticking to the scanner platen.

I'd check developer pH to make sure it's at the mark.

As to the developer chemistry; is this a developer that requires a starter? If so, did you add it? Otherwise pH ends up way too high.
Do you reuse (and replenish) the developer or use it one shot?

I've been running the Tetenal developer without a starter, properly diluted, in a Jobo - an approach which PE has endorsed in the past. I do have starter in stock if needed.

 

[koraks]

I understand Tetanal has two RA4 options on offer: a two-part home version without a starter, and a 'professional' version that can be configured and maintained from several components depending on usage scenario. The former, two-part home version does not require a starter and adding a starter to it will most likely be counterproductive.

OP is using Kodak Ektacolor chemistry it seems, and in that scenario, assuming the RT version is being used (which would be the logical choice for a home setting), the starter is necessary.

The reason why I'm pressing the pH and starter issues is that without starter and at too high pH, prints tend to exhibit drastically reduced dmax and severe color shifts (usually towards magenta). IMO inappropriate use of the starter or not using starter at all is the most likely cause of the problems we are seeing in this thread.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Thanks for all your feedback, I'll try and clarify:

RA-4 development time can be extended if running at a lower temperature, eg 2 minutes @ 20ºC etc. I've been doing 1 minute in a Jobo at 35ºC.

Yes, I made a graph using the recommended times vs. temps in the literature that came with the chemicals but now am working to precise temperature, aiming for consistent results.

The blix precipitate should not do this. If any thing, it should increase contrast while decreasing contrast, but that takes a lot of decomposition.

That's what I thought - I could be wrong but don't think the blix is the cause. although I'm slightly confused by "it should increase contrast while decreasing contrast"

My experience with RA4 is that everything needs to be spot on to get consistent satisfactory results. If there is any question as to the condition of your chemistry throw it out and buy fresh. Buy fresh paper (Fuji or Kodak) from a store that has fresh stock. Keep your tools clean so you don’t have any cross contamination. Process at consistent temperatures. No light leaks from the enlarger or reflections from the wall or your easel. When I have deviated from these rules I wasted a lot of my time and energy. Why are there blue stains on some of the borders?

If there is any question as to the condition of your chemistry throw it out and buy fresh. I'm getting new chemicals soon - different brand and fresh supply, but wanted to run down as many possibilities as I could before then as it would be frustrating to have the same issues. Also, I've had these issues since first opening these chemicals and they were factory sealed so while they might be at fault, I'm not convinced.

Buy fresh paper (Fuji or Kodak) from a store that has fresh stock. I got new paper, same issues across 2 totally different batches from different suppliers and different paper stocks.

Keep your tools clean so you don’t have any cross contamination. I have been very vigilant in cleaning and this is over different sessions using different tools.

Process at consistent temperatures. I've recently begun to do just this.

No light leaks from the enlarger or reflections from the wall or your easel. Now, there is a slight line of light coming from the mixing box, reflecting off the cream wall beside.. I hadn't given this a second thought but I could try some tests today removing any possible light leaks. How likely is this to be a cause of something like my issue?

When I have deviated from these rules I wasted a lot of my time and energy. Thanks for reiterating your rules/system, I'm determined to be vigilant!

Why are there blue stains on some of the borders? As koraks says below, I was a bit quick to scan and some water was at the edge of the print and is on the scanner glass.

Looks like wet spots on the paper sticking to the scanner platen.

Yeah, that's right

As to the developer chemistry; is this a developer that requires a starter? If so, did you add it? Otherwise pH ends up way too high.
Do you reuse (and replenish) the developer or use it one shot?

OP is using Kodak Ektacolor chemistry it seems, and in that scenario, assuming the RT version is being used (which would be the logical choice for a home setting), the starter is necessary.

The reason why I'm pressing the pH and starter issues is that without starter and at too high pH, prints tend to exhibit drastically reduced dmax and severe color shifts (usually towards magenta). IMO inappropriate use of the starter or not using starter at all is the most likely cause of the problems we are seeing in this thread.

Yes using Ektacolor, this version: https://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-developer-4x5l-295-p.asp

In the manual It says it doesn't need starter - for rotary tank processing. I use it as one-shot. If pH is an important thing to watch, I'll get a pH measure - is there a know ideal level / range?

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Okay, update to the above..

I do have Kodak Ektacolor RT (and not RA). From the manual:

"Chemical Mixing To prepare a gallon of developer working solution, mix the 1-gallon size of KODAK EKTACOLOR RA Developer according to the instructions on the package. It does not require starter. If you want to prepare 10 litres of developer working solution, mix the 10-litre size of KODAK EKTACOLOR RA Developer Replenisher RT with KODAK EKTACOLOR RA Developer Starter and water according to the instructions on the starter container. Be sure to use the replenisher and water ratios given for EKTACOLOR RA Developer Replenisher RT."

I think I misunderstood this as I was making a litre at a time. Does this mean RT always requires starter and that's likely what has caused my lifted blacks (and, now you mention it, possible colour shifts)?

I don't think RA is even available in the UK..

 

[Mike Chalmers]

I just don't understand, as I did read previous threads where users were not having the issues I am, and not using starter:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-ra4-rt-lu-replenisher-starter.102328/

 

[pentaxuser]

Mike. I hope that between your pretty comprehensive analysis and actions above and BMbikerider's call you can get to the bottom of this and when you do let us know the cause(s) if you will. At the very least others amongst us will know what to look out for should we ever experience a similar problem

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I just don't understand, as I did read previous threads where users were not having the issues I am, and not using starter:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-ra4-rt-lu-replenisher-starter.102328/

The starter is probably not needed for Jobo processing one-shot (developer - Kodak or Tetenal) but should be used for a tank solution (e.g roller transport processor - my old Thermaphot used over 5L). I may post some photos of the bottles later just to clarify matters. Yellow stain fogging can be caused by over-strong developer, i.e using the Tetenal dev at 1+9 instead of 1+19 for the Jobo one-shot approach. Of course by using that logic mixing the Kodak developer replenisher with the starter plus water to make a "tank solution" equivalent for Jobo work should be okay.

 

[Mike Chalmers]

The starter is probably not needed for Jobo processing one-shot (developer - Kodak or Tetenal) but should be used for a tank solution (e.g roller transport processor - my old Thermaphot used over 5L). I may post some photos of the bottles later just to clarify matters.

Yeah this is what I thought. Furthermore, my understanding is that if anything the blacks and contrast would be increased without starter (though I may be wrong here).

Mike. I hope that between your pretty comprehensive analysis and actions above and BMbikerider's call you can get to the bottom of this and when you do let us know the cause(s) if you will. At the very least others amongst us will know what to look out for should we ever experience a similar problem

Yes I'd be happy to provide the results and solution, if and when I get one!

 

[btaylor]

Regarding reflected light: I have had three problems with it. Light leaks from the carrier area of my Beseler- I rigged up little black curtains around the negative carrier. Stray light from the projected image because it wasn’t masked properly in the glass carrier or I was cropping a larger image. Reflections from the yellow edges of my Speed Ez El which I subsequently painted flat black. Good luck, I think we are all looking forward to your solution!

 

[Mike Chalmers]

Hey guys, what are your thoughts on this? A comment I got from local supplier - who didn't yet know of the blix issue (mentioned above):

"It looks like you just have virtually no d-max, but the blacks are more grey and no blue tint? If this sounds like a reasonable observation (just checking because of variation in computer monitors) you may infact have a blix issue. Possibly silver retention."

If this sounds likely, I might try and mix in more blix concentrate and see where that gets me.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Mike, your confusion is due to my bad error. It should read "increase in contrast with a decrease in color saturation".

As for bad blix? Maybe, but it looks more like underdevelopment to me.

PE

 

[Mike Chalmers]

As for bad blix? Maybe, but it looks more like underdevelopment to me.

If you mean underdevelopment of the print, I tried doubling the dev and blix time (2min at 35degrees) and the black level remained the same as the standard time.

 

[koraks]

Furthermore, my understanding is that if anything the blacks and contrast would be increased without starter (though I may be wrong here).

No. I've run paper through RA4 developer (Fuji) without starter (it does require it) and dmax is lower than it should be with a severe color shift to magenta. pH is much higher than a seasoned tank or started developer would be. Oddly enough, the high pH causes substantial loss of dmax.
pH of a seasoned RA4 developer is generally somewhere between 10.1 and 10.5, but that's quite a large margin; the techsheets of your developer should provide specific information. My Fuji stuff should be at 10.28, but I don't know what it should be for Kodak RT.

As an aside, I don't see how Kodak RT would require no starter if it's used in one type of development tank and a starter in a different kind of vessel. If the documentation says it is so, then I'll remain puzzled, but from a chemical viewpoint it doesn't make sense. The vessel used won't compensate for pH or halide levels.