RA-4 Color Development Process Question

[Photo Engineer]

The blix is quite harmless but the developer contains di-ethyl-hydroxyl amine oxalate which can cause problems with some people. The RA/RT chemistry is no different than other chemistry for RA4 processing except for concentration so that when diluted it makes the proper working solution and can be replenished.

PE

 

[DREW WILEY]

You call it harmless, but I can't tolerate even have a drop of it sitting around in my darkroom sink. But you already know my strategy. I load up the
drums in the darkroom and push the processor cart outdoors, where the actual development is done. The ingredients are mixed in under a moveable gooseneck power vent that feeds into my main exhaust ducting, rather than into the general fume hood over the sink.

 

[MEB]

It has nothing to do with "smell". When someone becomes sensitized to something, it only takes extremely small amounts to restart the problem.
Yeah, one could formulate their own brew, but with the potential risk of even more overall exposure. I suspect the offending agents in standard
Kodak RA/RT concentrates are basically special additives supplementary to the primary working ingredients, probably having preservative qualities. But those kinds of extra ingredients might very well be what makes the Kodak version, or its direct clones, more reliable than generic formulations.
At least in my experience, it has become my standard of dependability.

A bit off the original topic, but you can normally avoid to be sensitized to chemicals by using proper PPE which includes nitrile gloves and safety glasses for example, also avoiding spills on the skin. I normally always wear gloves when doing any kind of development works and plastic safety glasses. A well ventilated room is important, too.

 

[RPC]

Hi guys

Not wishing to highjack the thread but you seem to be talking about RA4 at room temperature. I know there use to be kits around that work that way but had the impression that they have been discontinued. Are there still kits available?

I don't believe the kits are still available but they were expensive and did not give the best results. The Kodak RA-RT Developer/Replenisher mentioned earlier is reasonably priced and gives excellent results and can be used at typical room temperatures (68-75F) and higher, and so can the Kodak RA-4 Bleach-Fix. I use them in trays, which I much prefer to the hassle of drums.

I have had no problems re-using the developer once or twice, unlike the OP. If fresh, it can be stored when well sealed in glass or good plastic for many months.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Health issues aside, a drum processor takes up a helluva lot less real estate than a sink line of 30x40 inch (plus) trays, and uses far less cumulative chemical volume.

 

[RPC]

I use to use a drum, but found I could make about as many prints developing with trays before the chemistry expired as with a drum using small amounts of the developer one shot. That is with the Kodak chemistry, I don't know about others.

 

[Nodda Duma]

You mean 70 F of course.

Yes thank you

 

[mshchem]

Guys, I have done color print processing in trays since the '50s!!!!! (P122 back then) and have had no problems except for aerial oxidation. I use them today at 20C (70F).

PE

I still use Kodak rapid color processor model 11. It's fast and nothing to wash when you're done. With the fancy Thomas safelights, I can get around fine.
I have a heater for mine (95F), I usually develop for around a minute, seems to develop to completion in about 45 seconds so if I go over time I don't get worried. I've always used a stop bath, quick 20 second or so, then blix 1 min. Final wash with running water (95 F, mixing valve).

So, question is how long does it take to fully develop, and blix in a tray at 20 F.?? Model 11 is from fiber base CP-5 days. Can I process at room temp?

I also have a nice Jobo, but for 11 x 14 on down I use the Model 11. So much less to clean up.

Best Regards, Mike

P.S. For me nothing is as easy and cheap as RA-4. Inkjet printers stink, and then there's the whole scanning fun.

 

[Stephen Weston]

I don't believe the kits are still available but they were expensive and did not give the best results. The Kodak RA-RT Developer/Replenisher mentioned earlier is reasonably priced and gives excellent results and can be used at typical room temperatures (68-75F) and higher, and so can the Kodak RA-4 Bleach-Fix. I use them in trays, which I much prefer to the hassle of drums.

I have had no problems re-using the developer once or twice, unlike the OP. If fresh, it can be stored when well sealed in glass or good plastic for many months.

Thanks. I haven't done any colour work for a long time but might give it a go again at some point.

 

[BMbikerider]

I have been developing C41 film and making prints from the negatives for the past 26 years so I think I can speak with a degree of experience. (I'm still learning though.) I have always used Kodak Ektacolour 20 ltr kits for my RA4 developer and the equivalent for the blix. (With a stop bath used in between) I have always used a 12"x16" NOVA deep-tank processor for the dev, stop and blix stages and have never EVER experienced the developer 'going off even when I don't change the developer for several months. I only do that to clean out the tanks of any accumulated sludge. Actually the stop bath section is usually the worst.

At the end of the session the chemicals are replenished at a ratio of 10cc per every 80sq ins of paper (a 10"x8" sheet) so on and so forth. Sometimes if the carry over from one bath to another is greater, I just replenish up to the mark on the tank. I then replace the floating lids which reduces the exposed area of the chemicals to virtually nil. But I also cover the top of the processor with plastic film (called cling film in UK)

These NOVA processors in the size I use take just under 2 litres of chemical each and when I make up a new batch of chemicals I also make enough to give me a few sessions with spare chemicals for replenishment.
It makes no difference if you over replenish but does if you don't replenish at all.

All pre-mixed developer is stored in 500cc bottles and when needed, decanted out into 100cc bottles for use after each session. Stay away from plastic containers, no matter how thick the walls are they will allow oxygen to permeate in the developer. Like one other reply metal containers, even stainless steel is best not used.

As for chemical decomposition, I think there is more risk of the liquid concentrates decomposing before the diluted solutions are expired.

I have also found that with C41 developer, mixing all the concentrate and again storing them in glass bottles (500cc and 100cc) ready to use when needed, means I can expect to be able to finish the whole quantity before it 'goes off'

 

[MEB]

I have been developing C41 film and making prints from the negatives for the past 26 years so I think I can speak with a degree of experience. (I'm still learning though.) I have always used Kodak Ektacolour 20 ltr kits for my RA4 developer and the equivalent for the blix. (With a stop bath used in between) I have always used a 12"x16" NOVA deep-tank processor for the dev, stop and blix stages and have never EVER experienced the developer 'going off even when I don't change the developer for several months. I only do that to clean out the tanks of any accumulated sludge. Actually the stop bath section is usually the worst.

At the end of the session the chemicals are replenished at a ratio of 10cc per every 80sq ins of paper (a 10"x8" sheet) so on and so forth. Sometimes if the carry over from one bath to another is greater, I just replenish up to the mark on the tank. I then replace the floating lids which reduces the exposed area of the chemicals to virtually nil. But I also cover the top of the processor with plastic film (called cling film in UK)

These NOVA processors in the size I use take just under 2 litres of chemical each and when I make up a new batch of chemicals I also make enough to give me a few sessions with spare chemicals for replenishment.
It makes no difference if you over replenish but does if you don't replenish at all.

All pre-mixed developer is stored in 500cc bottles and when needed, decanted out into 100cc bottles for use after each session. Stay away from plastic containers, no matter how thick the walls are they will allow oxygen to permeate in the developer. Like one other reply metal containers, even stainless steel is best not used.

As for chemical decomposition, I think there is more risk of the liquid concentrates decomposing before the diluted solutions are expired.

I have also found that with C41 developer, mixing all the concentrate and again storing them in glass bottles (500cc and 100cc) ready to use when needed, means I can expect to be able to finish the whole quantity before it 'goes off'

Thanks for sharing your experience - regarding my initial post, do you think the developer was still okay even after usage in an open tray for > 5 hours, and the magenta cast just came from a change in pH as discussed earlier? The RA-4 manual mentions that the developer won't last in an open tray for more than 4 hours of usage.

Interesting part here in this discussion is that there are very contradicting reports how the RA-4 developer can be used. I bought the Arista RA-4 developer kit - it might also depend which RA-4 developer (and Blix) are used. I have no experience with the original Kodak RA-4 chemicals.

To store the chemicals in glass containers makes sense, I am going to do this from now on as I do it with my C-41 chemicals for color film development.

 

[MEB]

I still use Kodak rapid color processor model 11. It's fast and nothing to wash when you're done. With the fancy Thomas safelights, I can get around fine.
I have a heater for mine (95F), I usually develop for around a minute, seems to develop to completion in about 45 seconds so if I go over time I don't get worried. I've always used a stop bath, quick 20 second or so, then blix 1 min. Final wash with running water (95 F, mixing valve).

So, question is how long does it take to fully develop, and blix in a tray at 20 F.?? Model 11 is from fiber base CP-5 days. Can I process at room temp?

I also have a nice Jobo, but for 11 x 14 on down I use the Model 11. So much less to clean up.

Best Regards, Mike

P.S. For me nothing is as easy and cheap as RA-4. Inkjet printers stink, and then there's the whole scanning fun.

I just started doing print developments with the RA-4 process, but I also did it first in unheated solutions at 75F (which was the room temperature at this time). I had my prints fully developed in the developer bath for 100 seconds, then moved into the stop bath for 30 seconds. I left it in the Blix bath for another 150 seconds.

 

[MEB]

Question: I just bought an Unicolor drum for my 11x14" print developments. How do you guys use this drum with approx. 130 ml of developer solution? Just adding the solution and shaking it for the needed time depending on the temperature? Can the solution spill out of the drum while doing this (I only see on the picture that it has an opening lid to fill and empty the tank, so I am wondering)?

 

[mnemosyne]

Question: I just bought an Unicolor drum for my 11x14" print developments. How do you guys use this drum with approx. 130 ml of developer solution? Just adding the solution and shaking it for the needed time depending on the temperature? Can the solution spill out of the drum while doing this (I only see on the picture that it has an opening lid to fill and empty the tank, so I am wondering)?

Don't stir or shake, but roll (rotate), with a change of direction every now and then. There are manual roller bases avaialable (Jobo) or it should not be do difficult to build your own. Some people simply roll the drum on a table. But you have to do it in a way that keeps the drum level, so the solution is not flowing to one end of the drum only, which would lead to uneven development. IDK the Unicolor drums but the Jobo drums are sealed with a cap, so nothing should spill. They have a small beaker-like container inside the lid into which you pour the solution while the drum is in upright position. Then you put on the cap. As soon as you lay down the drum in horizontal position, the solution flows into the drum proper and gets into contact with the paper.

Check the Kodak pdf on RA-4 drum processing, it contains valuable information.

 

[MEB]

Don't stir or shake, but roll (rotate), with a change of direction every now and then. There are manual roller bases avaialable (Jobo) or it should not be do difficult to build your own. Some people simply roll the drum on a table. But you have to do it in a way that keeps the drum level, so the solution is not flowing to one end of the drum only, which would lead to uneven development. IDK the Unicolor drums but the Jobo drums are sealed with a cap, so nothing should spill. They have a small beaker-like container inside the lid into which you pour the solution while the drum is in upright position. Then you put on the cap. As soon as you lay down the drum in horizontal position, the solution flows into the drum proper and gets into contact with the paper.

Check the Kodak pdf on RA-4 drum processing, it contains valuable information.

Thanks for the info and referring to the Kodak paper. Does anybody have information how to handle the Unicolor drum? I suspect as shown in the Kodak paper that the handling of the drum has to be done in the dark (meaning that the open lid can let in light in opposite to film development bins)?

 

[bvy]

Question: I just bought an Unicolor drum for my 11x14" print developments. How do you guys use this drum with approx. 130 ml of developer solution? Just adding the solution and shaking it for the needed time depending on the temperature? Can the solution spill out of the drum while doing this (I only see on the picture that it has an opening lid to fill and empty the tank, so I am wondering)?

The Unicolor drums have two flat edges on either side that serve both as a stand for pouring in the chemicals, and a stop for rolling it to and fro. When you pour in the chemicals in the amounts prescribed by the manufacturer (120ml for an 11x14 drum), theoretically, the developer shouldn't come in contact with the print while the drum is upright/in the pour position. Once you start rolling it, keep it level and in motion.

This will get you started, but you'll find that it gets tedious quick. Look for a Unicolor motor base and you'll be much happier.

 

[bvy]

Thanks for the info and referring to the Kodak paper. Does anybody have information how to handle the Unicolor drum? I suspect as shown in the Kodak paper that the handling of the drum has to be done in the dark (meaning that the open lid can let in light in opposite to film development bins)?

Yes, load it in complete darkness. They can leak if the O-ring in the lid is worn or not situated right. I've had slow drips with chemicals but never a light leak.

I have the Unicolor instruction somewhere. Required reading, I think. I'll try to post them later (I'm not at home).

 

[MEB]

Yes, load it in complete darkness. They can leak if the O-ring in the lid is worn or not situated right. I've had slow drips with chemicals but never a light leak.

I have the Unicolor instruction somewhere. Required reading, I think. I'll try to post them later (I'm not at home).

Thanks, fantastic, this would be great!

 

[BMbikerider]

Thanks for sharing your experience - regarding my initial post, do you think the developer was still okay even after usage in an open tray for > 5 hours, and the magenta cast just came from a change in pH as discussed earlier? The RA-4 manual mentions that the developer won't last in an open tray for more than 4 hours of usage.

Interesting part here in this discussion is that there are very contradicting reports how the RA-4 developer can be used. I bought the Arista RA-4 developer kit - it might also depend which RA-4 developer (and Blix) are used. I have no experience with the original Kodak RA-4 chemicals.

To store the chemicals in glass containers makes sense, I am going to do this from now on as I do it with my C-41 chemicals for color film development.

I cannot say because I have never use an open tray to dev RA4. but I am thinking along the lines of cross contamination between the dev and blix before the developing stage that will produce odd discoloration. I think, like B&W development if an exhausted or oxidised developer is used you simply loose contrast and density. But you may have to consider that the 3 colour layers in RA4 paper may develop at different speeds and the magenta one develops quicker than the others. Put simply I don't know except to say I would never do RA4 in an open dish - there are just too many things that can go wrong.

I'm just thinking that Magenta colouration is also possible with exposure to light but not from the enlarger, does the discolouration extend into both the edges (borders) and the subject?

 

[MEB]

I cannot say because I have never use an open tray to dev RA4. but I am thinking along the lines of cross contamination between the dev and blix before the developing stage that will produce odd discoloration. I think, like B&W development if an exhausted or oxidised developer is used you simply loose contrast and density. But you may have to consider that the 3 colour layers in RA4 paper may develop at different speeds and the magenta one develops quicker than the others. Put simply I don't know except to say I would never do RA4 in an open dish - there are just too many things that can go wrong.

I'm just thinking that Magenta colouration is also possible with exposure to light but not from the enlarger, does the discolouration extend into both the edges (borders) and the subject?

Exposure to light gives a bluish not a magenta cast. The print itself looked perfectly fine, the magenta cast did not extend inside the print itself. Just the white frame around the image was pink. I could see in the tray (it was fairly dark but I was still able to see the development) that the cast developed in the development tray, not in the stop or in the Blix bath. I did not have this issue at all when I used the developer fresh the first day. It only happened after storing it in a bottle over night, adding it into the cleaned tray the next morning. I can also exclude undesired exposure to light when using the paper under my enlarger.

 

[mnemosyne]

Exposure to light gives a bluish not a magenta cast.

Who told you this? It is wrong. I have experienced these pink/magenta borders just a couple of days ago, when I managed to fog a couple of sheets by leaving the paper safe open and switching on LED light in the DR. Where did you get your paper from? Is it fresh material from a sealed box, in other words, can you rule out that the box/bag has been opened by someone (e.g., previous owner) and the paper got partially fogged?

　I could see in the tray (it was fairly dark but I was still able to see the development) that the cast developed in the development tray, not in the stop or in the Blix bath. I did not have this issue at all when I used the developer fresh the first day. It only happened after storing it in a bottle over night, adding it into the cleaned tray the next morning. I can also exclude undesired exposure to light when using the paper under my enlarger.

You are telling us that you could see the paper in the tray and in the same paragraph telling us you can rule out undesired exposure? If you had any light at all in you "dark"room and it was so bright that you could make out the picture or the paper in the tray, then you definitely HAD "undesired expsoure".

RA4 paper has to be handled in total darkness. Absolute, total darkness. RA4 paper is very sensitive and the only form of safelight that is allowable, is a very, very dim sodium vapour safelight. See the Kodak instructions. If anything, nowadays' papers are even faster then the papers in the days when the Kodak pdf was written. And btw, you should have put it face down in the tray in the first place. I am not saying this is 100% the reason for your pink border problem, but it is something you have to address, because it will compromise image quality.

 

[MEB]

Who told you this? It is wrong. I have experienced these pink/magenta borders just a couple of days ago, when I managed to fog a couple of sheets by leaving the paper safe open and switching on LED light in the DR. Where did you get your paper from? Is it fresh material from a sealed box, in other words, can you rule out that the box/bag has been opened by someone (e.g., previous owner) and the paper got partially fogged?



You are telling us that you could see the paper in the tray and in the same paragraph telling us you can rule out undesired exposure? If you had any light at all in you "dakroom" and it was so bright that you could make out the picture or the paper in the tray than you definitely HAD "undesired expsoure".

RA4 paper has to be handled in total darkness, I repeat, absolute, total darkness. RA4 paper is very sensitive and the only form of safelight that is allowable, is a very, very dim sodium vapour safelight. See the Kodak instructions. If anything nowadays papers are even faster then the papers in the days when the Kodak pdf was written. And btw, you should have put it face down in the tray in the first place. I am not saying this is 100% the reason for your pink border problem, but it is something you have to address, because it will compromise image quality.

I disagree. I used a totally new box of paper, brand new. Only opened it in the pitch dark in my dry darkroom where I do the enlarging. Always closed the box after taking one paper out of there. Fogging of the paper would affect the whole print which didn't happen in my case.
Some very small amount of light is creeping into my ventilated bathroom where I do all the wet processing. As I pointed out, under the exact same conditions I had my papers developed perfectly fine the first time when I used the developer. After my eyes adjusted to the low amount of light, I could see that the borders didn't stay white in the developer bath but turned slightly greyish (which was later the magenta cast). I believe more it had to do with the pH change when I used the developer solution the next day as another poster described above. And to make it clear: even with the magenta casts on the white borders, the print itself turned out perfectly fine. And I tested this twice with a bit colder filter ratio applied on my enlarger and then a second print with a bit warmer cast. Both prints displayed this difference very well but the magenta color cast on the white border was always the same. Didn't happen at all the first day I used the developer exactly the same way.

 

[MattKing]

Exposure to light gives a bluish not a magenta cast.

Only if the light is predominantly yellow.
If it is predominantly green (some fluorescent lights, some LEDs) the cast will be magenta.
Do you have a watch with an illuminated face?

 

[darkroommike]

Guys, I have done color print processing in trays since the '50s!!!!! (P122 back then) and have had no problems except for aerial oxidation. I use them today at 20C (70F).

PE

And RA-4 is the easiest Kodak color process to use in trays ever. If you do 8x10's in 8x10 trays you can process about 20 8x10's per quart/liter with little or no color shift per print. That's about half the chemicals per print that a drum requires (3oz. per 8x10). I used to buy gallon kits and put the mixed developer into 4 quart bottles, the blix went into a gallon jug.

BTW I did a test years ago that Mitchell or Nadler (1975 so I'm a bit hazy who made the suggestion) recommended and painted my color printing easel black, light was reflecting onto the back of my paper from the yellow easel and made a difference in color balance.

 

[darkroommike]

RA4 paper has to be handled in total darkness. Absolute, total darkness. RA4 paper is very sensitive and the only form of safelight that is allowable, is a very, very dim sodium vapour safelight. See the Kodak instructions. If anything, nowadays' papers are even faster then the papers in the days when the Kodak pdf was written. And btw, you should have put it face down in the tray in the first place. I am not saying this is 100% the reason for your pink border problem, but it is something you have to address, because it will compromise image quality.

I have successfully used a #10 (very dark) a #13 better and a Thomas safelight (wowser what a difference!). Put the print upside down in the tray and you risk scratches and airbells, print goes in face up. Safelight is NOT bright enough to judge the print (use time instead) but is bright enough that you can find the print to remove it from the tray.