RA-4 Color Development Process Question

MEB · Aug 1, 2016

Writing this here as my first post since I couldn't get a good information online about this. I started getting into the RA-4 color print process with color negatives printed with my Beseler 67S on Aristacolor photosensitive paper. Good thing is that I got it to work well with the right Y/M channels - but unfortunately I found out that the RA-4 developer mix decomposed very quickly within my development tray in only a few hours of usage at room temperature. The following day I got magenta looking borders instead of white frames around the color prints (and there was no light leak, otherwise the frame would be blueish, not magenta-red!). I am aware that using drums might be a better idea here for the print development, but they are not standard for my 11x14" paper size - and they still would oxidize within the drum, too. My question is - do you have any experience with such RA-4 process and advice how to handle the developer better? Does the magenta cast come from decomposed RA-4 developer mix? The RA-4 chemicals are quite expensive, so slopping the developer after a day is no good option.

Photo Engineer · Aug 1, 2016

I usually make one good test strip of each negative, usually 3 or 4 and then I make the final prints and run them in the tray.

I use RA-RT Developer Replenisher at 20C for 1 minute, blix for 2 minutes, wash until the red color is gone from the wash water and then dry.

I have no idea where the stain / fog is coming from.

PE

MEB · Aug 1, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
I usually make one good test strip of each negative, usually 3 or 4 and then I make the final prints and run them in the tray.

I use RA-RT Developer Replenisher at 20C for 1 minute, blix for 2 minutes, wash until the red color is gone from the wash water and then dry.

I have no idea where the stain / fog is coming from.

PE

I did more or less the same - it worked perfectly the first day when I used the RA-4 chemicals, but the following day - after I had the chemicals stored in closed cans over night - the issue with the magenta borders instead of white ones appeared. I was able to see in the dark that the magenta stains formed in the developer not in the blix. I suspect some developer or sensitizer decomposed by using it in the open tray for approx. 4 hours.

How long does your RA-4 developer and blix last after using them in open trays?

Photo Engineer · Aug 1, 2016

Cans? What do you mean? I use no cans. Metals can contaminate solutions.

If you use them in open trays, you generally can store them overnight in tightly capped full plastic or glass containers, but no longer. Fresh, they can keep for 3 - 6 months.

PE

Stephen Weston · Aug 2, 2016

Hi guys

Not wishing to highjack the thread but you seem to be talking about RA4 at room temperature. I know there use to be kits around that work that way but had the impression that they have been discontinued. Are there still kits available?

Darko Pozar · Aug 2, 2016

I used the RA4 process in a dip and dunk system. I processed my papers ay 35 Celsius/95 Fahrenheit with no issues. My experience was that because there was a low surface area
of the exposed chemical in the dunk tanks I would experience less oxidation; hence the developer would remain active with replenishment for longer.
However, I found I would get a Magenta stain if the chemistry was cooler.
When I ended the session, a floating lid was sufficient to preserve the chemistry.

Nodda Duma · Aug 2, 2016

Stephen Weston said:
Hi guys

Not wishing to highjack the thread but you seem to be talking about RA4 at room temperature. I know there use to be kits around that work that way but had the impression that they have been discontinued. Are there still kits available?

RA-RT developer/replenisher can be used successfully at 70C and above. I've done this myself as well after reading a post or two about it in the APUG archives.

MEB · Aug 2, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Cans? What do you mean? I use no cans. Metals can contaminate solutions.

If you use them in open trays, you generally can store them overnight in tightly capped full plastic or glass containers, but no longer. Fresh, they can keep for 3 - 6 months.

PE

I referred to plastic can(ister)s. Thanks for confirming my observation that the chemicals are fairly unstable. I had the developer and blix stored over night in plastic cans, but they were not filled to the top (I used a 1 Ga plastic can for 2 liters of solution). I guess that the process is then not feasible enough for me to continue. Well, at least it was a good experience!

MEB · Aug 2, 2016

Darko Pozar said:
I used the RA4 process in a dip and dunk system. I processed my papers ay 35 Celsius/95 Fahrenheit with no issues. My experience was that because there was a low surface area
of the exposed chemical in the dunk tanks I would experience less oxidation; hence the developer would remain active with replenishment for longer.
However, I found I would get a Magenta stain if the chemistry was cooler.
When I ended the session, a floating lid was sufficient to preserve the chemistry.

Interesting - I used regular RA-4 chemicals at about 23-24 deg C and just adjusted the development times. It worked perfectly fine the first time I used the fresh developer package, but I suffered from the magenta stain the next day under the same temperature conditions. I also read the advice to use a plastic wrap foil on top of the developer in the tray to reduce the active surface area and to lower oxidation in air. I will try this the next time (I still have original RA-4 developer stock solution in separate flasks which give another 2 liters)

mnemosyne · Aug 2, 2016

MEB said:
I referred to plastic can(ister)s. Thanks for confirming my observation that the chemicals are fairly unstable. I had the developer and blix stored over night in plastic cans, but they were not filled to the top (I used a 1 Ga plastic can for 2 liters of solution). I guess that the process is then not feasible enough for me to continue. Well, at least it was a good experience!

When developing in trays, use the larger and more economical kits from Kodak or Fuji instead of the smaller and relatively expensive amateur kits from Tetenal etc. This gives considerable savings. Also, when working for several days in a row, you could try to at least partially replace the working solution with fresh one at the beginning of each session and see how it works out. More points that will influence the life expectancy of your solutons:

make sure you store the solutions in fully filled and tightly sealed containers (wine bags are ideal!)
avoid cross contamination of solutions, which can happen very easily when working with open trays in the dark. A tiny splash of Blix or Stop is all that's needed to ruin the developer

The thing is that RA-4 was not developed for use in open trays or even in rotary drums. The chemistry will keep weeks, or even longer, and be very economical when handled properly and used in a RT processor and the solutions are replenished at least on a daily basis. However, in open trays and rotary drums, the solution are much more susceptible to oxidization. This is why Kodak suggests to use the solutions one-shot in rotary drums and for a maximum of a couple of hours (IIRC) in open trays.

Rudeofus · Aug 2, 2016

The key advantage of RA-4 drum processing is not reduced oxidation - the opposite is true - but that you can do it with very little process chemistry. In my experience PPD based developers rise in pH over time, so if you get red stain, you could try adding small amounts of Acetic Acid to your CD.

MEB · Aug 2, 2016

mnemosyne said:
When developing in trays, use the larger and more economical kits from Kodak or Fuji instead of the smaller and relatively expensive amateur kits from Tetenal etc. This gives considerable savings. Also, when working for several days in a row, you could try to at least partially replace the working solution with fresh one at the beginning of each session and see how it works out. More points that will influence the life expectancy of your solutons:

make sure you store the solutions in fully filled and tightly sealed containers (wine bags are ideal!)

avoid cross contamination of solutions, which can happen very easily when working with open trays in the dark. A tiny splash of Blix or Stop is all that's needed to ruin the developer

The thing is that RA-4 was not developed for use in open trays or even in rotary drums. The chemistry will keep weeks, or even longer, and be very economical when handled properly and used in a RT processor and the solutions are replenished at least on a daily basis. However, in open trays and rotary drums, the solution are much more susceptible to oxidization. This is why Kodak suggests to use the solutions one-shot in rotary drums and for a maximum of a couple of hours (IIRC) in open trays.

I can exclude cross-contamination in the developer. I am using large generic plastic trays which fit 11x14" paper formats. I am using a stop bath between developer and blix. At this point I am not willing to make an additional investment in equipment just for the RA-4 process with drums or rotary drums.

MEB · Aug 2, 2016

Rudeofus said:
The key advantage of RA-4 drum processing is not reduced oxidation - the opposite is true - but that you can do it with very little process chemistry. In my experience PPD based developers rise in pH over time, so if you get red stain, you could try adding small amounts of Acetic Acid to your CD.

Good advice, please just explain the used acronyms for PPD (?) and CD (chemical developer?)

bvy · Aug 2, 2016

I buy the ten liter kits from Kodak, mix it all at once, and store it in 18 or so 600ml plastic bottles filled to capacity. It sounds like a lot, but it shouldn't require you to sacrifice living space.

Next I purchased several 120ml glass bottles (sold as 4oz.) with polyseal lids from Specialty Glass. When I print color, I decant a 600ml bottle into 5 of these bottles. The small glass bottles come to temperature (95F) quickly and easily in a water bath.

I use drums and develop one shot, although if I'm printing test sheets, I'll reuse the developer several times in the same session. It's generally not good more than 24 hours once used, but it will keep for months unused in the larger 600ml bottles or smaller glass bottles.

I wouldn't bother with trays unless you have a large space with good ventilation and a foolproof workflow. You should have no problem finding an 11x14 drum. The Unicolor drum will process 1 11x14 sheet or 2 8x10's and requires just 120ml of developer.

Wayne · Aug 2, 2016

Nodda Duma said:
RA-RT developer/replenisher can be used successfully at 70C and above. I've done this myself as well after reading a post or two about it in the APUG archives.

You mean 70 F of course.

Wayne · Aug 2, 2016

MEB said:
Good advice, please just explain the used acronyms for PPD (?) and CD (chemical developer?)

para-Phenylenediamine
Color Developer, loosely, although CD prefix (CD3, CD4) is also used specificically to refer to specific color developing agents with long tongue-tangling names

MEB · Aug 2, 2016

bvy said:
I buy the ten liter kits from Kodak, mix it all at once, and store it in 18 or so 600ml plastic bottles filled to capacity. It sounds like a lot, but it shouldn't require you to sacrifice living space.

Next I purchased several 120ml glass bottles (sold as 4oz.) with polyseal lids from Specialty Glass. When I print color, I decant a 600ml bottle into 5 of these bottles. The small glass bottles come to temperature (95F) quickly and easily in a water bath.

I use drums and develop one shot, although if I'm printing test sheets, I'll reuse the developer several times in the same session. It's generally not good more than 24 hours once used, but it will keep for months unused in the larger 600ml bottles or smaller glass bottles.

I wouldn't bother with trays unless you have a large space with good ventilation and a foolproof workflow. You should have no problem finding an 11x14 drum. The Unicolor drum will process 1 11x14 sheet or 2 8x10's and requires just 120ml of developer.

Very good advice indeed....yep, probably this is the way to go by using such drum and 120 ml glass bottles with the developer. I assume you do the same for the blix (120 ml of blix usage in the drum afterwards?)

mklw1954 · Aug 2, 2016

Like bvy, I use the Kodak Ektacolor RA-4 chemicals to make 10 liters (no starter), one-shot and a drum and roller base. I found Cibrachrome drums to be best with respect to good friction ends that don't leak. 11x14 drums are available.

The developer can be made up all at one time but the blix should be made up as needed as it degrades more quickly. I use 1 liter plain seltzer water bottles for the developer and blix solutions. A shorter session is 7 prints at 70ml per 8x10 print and storage of the remaining 0.5 liter developer and blix in 8 oz. plastic spring water bottles, to be used the next night. A longer session is 14 8x10 prints that will use the entire 1 liter solutions. Or 7 11x14 prints will use the entire 1 liter solutions.

bvy · Aug 2, 2016

MEB said:
Very good advice indeed....yep, probably this is the way to go by using such drum and 120 ml glass bottles with the developer. I assume you do the same for the blix (120 ml of blix usage in the drum afterwards?)

I prepare smaller portions of blix at a time (500 or 600ml) and use it for several weeks. I bring the entire bottle to temperature in a water bath. Since I reuse it, there's no need to be so precise -- just make sure you pour in at least 120ml.

Also, I add a vinegar stop and rinse between developer and blix to insure even development.

DREW WILEY · Aug 2, 2016

I would never re-use RA4 chem that's been in a tray. In fact, I would never use it in a tray to begin with. You can replenish it if you want to bother with that kind of monitoring. Most labs have automated machinery which largely does that for them. But RA/RT chem is cheap enough, so I use it one-shot in drums, and only mix up enough for a daily session. Better safe than sorry.

MEB · Aug 2, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
I would never re-use RA4 chem that's been in a tray. In fact, I would never use it in a tray to begin with. You can replenish it if you want to bother with that kind of monitoring. Most labs have automated machinery which largely does that for them. But RA/RT chem is cheap enough, so I use it one-shot in drums, and only mix up enough for a daily session. Better safe than sorry.

I agree that doing this in a tray was not a good idea - I figured this now! I consider doing the drum method which bvy above suggested. But I didn't find RA chemistry cheap - Freestyle offers the RA-4 pack to make up to 4 liters for $40.....so you think twice to start with this process including cost for paper.

Photo Engineer · Aug 2, 2016

Guys, I have done color print processing in trays since the '50s!!!!! (P122 back then) and have had no problems except for aerial oxidation. I use them today at 20C (70F).

PE

DREW WILEY · Aug 2, 2016

I don't like the health risks of BLIX in open trays. Sure, I probably got sensitized to amines etc back when I was working with industrial coatings rather than via darkroom work per se, though it could also have been due to all the Ciba work I did. But I figure it is an inherent risk regardless, and do know photo lab owners that couldn't even enter their own labs at a certain point in time due to sensitization. The less in the air the better.

MEB · Aug 2, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
I don't like the health risks of BLIX in open trays. Sure, I probably got sensitized to amines etc back when I was working with industrial coatings rather than via darkroom work per se, though it could also have been due to all the Ciba work I did. But I figure it is an inherent risk regardless, and do know photo lab owners that couldn't even enter their own labs at a certain point in time due to sensitization. The less in the air the better.

The way I see it, Blix predominantly contains FeEDTA complex and (NH4)2S2O3 (= ammonium thiosulfate). The bleach effect comes from the FeEDTA - a very stable coordination compound, one of the most stable iron(III) complexes. It is not a volatile compound - you might get some ammonium thiosulfate smell, but even this compound is not toxic either - at least not if inhaled constantly over a long period of time. Nevertheless, I agree that it is better to do also this within the drum due its fast decomposition rate in the Blix mix.

DREW WILEY · Aug 2, 2016

It has nothing to do with "smell". When someone becomes sensitized to something, it only takes extremely small amounts to restart the problem.
Yeah, one could formulate their own brew, but with the potential risk of even more overall exposure. I suspect the offending agents in standard
Kodak RA/RT concentrates are basically special additives supplementary to the primary working ingredients, probably having preservative qualities. But those kinds of extra ingredients might very well be what makes the Kodak version, or its direct clones, more reliable than generic formulations.
At least in my experience, it has become my standard of dependability.

RA-4 Color Development Process Question

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