Questions: Two 120 Rolls On One Patterson Reel

[Certain Exposures]

Hello everyone.

I have a few questions for those of you that often develop two 120 rolls at once on a single Patterson reel:

0. Do you use inversion, the twiddle stick, or a processor of some kind?

1. Do you tape the rolls together or do you just insert one after the other? Has your approach changed over time?

2. Have you observed uneven development, incomplete development, or other any other flaws thanks to doing this?

3. How often, if ever, has one roll of film covered frames on another roll on the same reel? Was it a disaster for you?

4. Did you change any of your stop or wash times to compensate for the additional film?



My answers:

0. I use a processor most of the time. I invert otherwise.

1. I tape them. The process of taping them in the dark can be annoying, though.

2. No, with one caveat. I have observed strange results on a few frames. They're all from the same camera. My theory is that I may have a lens defect on that particular camera body. I'm planning to make a post later to ask some questions.

3. This only happened once when I avoided using tape to join the two rolls. Strangely, the negatives were fine. I am hesitant to go back to skipping tape, though.

4. I have not. However, I wonder if I should.

 

[AnselMortensen]

0. Inversion.

1. I leave the factory tape on the film, it helps keep the film from sliding around in the reel.

2. No. No.

3. Never. N/A.

4. No.

 

[mshchem]

I haven't done this in decades. I found it very difficult. IIRC I had the best luck by getting the first one the reel, winding it in a bit hen starting the second, but the films end to end and applying a bit of tape to splice the to films together.
Personally I would pick up a different reel, like an AP, or better go Jobo. I love Paterson but Jobo is much easier for what you are doing.

 

[MattKing]

I do it regularly, using the AP version of reels that fit the Paterson tanks.
I don't use tape, other than folding over the existing tape to stiffen the leading edge of the film before loading. I load and advance the first roll as far as it can go into the reel. For the last part of that, I just push the film along, using the flat part of my fingernail on the edge of the film. It moves easily, and I can easily feel when it reaches the end. After that I load and advance the second roll only as far as necessary to clear the ball bearings. That leaves a decent gap between the rolls.
I use the following agitation regime:
1) continuous reversing rotary agitation for the first 30 seconds in the developer;
2) inversion agitation of 5 seconds every 30 seconds for the rest of the development time;
3) continuous reversing rotary agitation for the rest of the procedures.
If I use continuous reversing rotary agitation for the rest of the development time, the films seem to move a lot within the reels, and are vulnerable to ending up overlapping each other. I guess they must be slipperier when in the developer, because using the rotary agitation for the rest of the procedure doesn't result in issues with overlapping. I could elect to use all rotary agitation for single reel rolls, and the aforesaid mixture for dual roll reels, but I prefer to standardize on a single approach.
Using the specified regime, I get the same results as doing single rolls. I use replenished XTol as a developer, and in order to maintain consistency, I always use a full litre of developer in my 1 litre capacity tank. As the other steps in the procedure are done with my tank rotating on its side, I am comfortable using a smaller amount of those other chemicals - 600 ml works well.
I don't possess the necessary two handed dexterity to be able to reliably tape the two rolls together.
My two 120 reel Paterson Super System IV tank works great on a Beseler rotary agitator.
I don't modify any times in the rest of the procedure, although I obviously calculate capacity and replenishment numbers based on the number of films developed.

 

[gorbas]

In Movie film processing labs more than 40 years ago, I learned this trick.
Just staple it.
This kind of stapler has very handy shape to connect 2 rolls of 120 film and uses a bit smaller staples than regular, 10mm wide.
Usually I leave paper tape on the film, with clipped corners, to go first then I staple back part to back part.
You will feel a bit more resistance while moving film with usual Paterson twist until stapled film pass the balls in channels, at beginning.
Don't force anything, just gentle moves.
Twist reel normally until whole film is in. Never had any issues.
I use this way when developing shorter pieces of 35mm on the same reel too.

 

[YoIaMoNwater]

In Movie film processing labs more than 40 years ago, I learned this trick.
Just staple it.
This kind of stapler has very handy shape to connect 2 rolls of 120 film and uses a bit smaller staples than regular, 10mm wide.
Usually I leave paper tape on the film, with clipped corners, to go first then I staple back part to back part.
You will feel a bit more resistance while moving film with usual Paterson twist until stapled film pass the balls in channels, at beginning.
Don't force anything, just gentle moves.
Twist reel normally until whole film is in. Never had any issues.
I use this way when developing shorter pieces of 35mm on the same reel too.
View attachment 412728

This is a great idea and I'll try it when there's time.

I've done the tape method and its a pain in the ass to get both films' edges to align in the dark. I used a AP reel but removed the ball bearings because it was scratching my film after black and white reversal processes.

One thing I noticed when loading two 120 films with tape is that after processing, a lot of the sticky residues from the tape gets inside the grooves of the reels. So just clean them with running hot water and dish detergent and they'll be fine.

 

[tcolgate]

Stapling is genius!
The first two times I tried taping two together it worked really well. The next half dozen times it didnt and eventually I gave up. The stress and fiddling usually ended up with me buckling somethign end ended up with the fingernail things.

 

[Donald Qualls]

0. Do you use inversion, the twiddle stick, or a processor of some kind?

I've done both, I prefer inversion though I don't know that it makes a lot of difference in a process that isn't very sensitive to agitation.

1. Do you tape the rolls together or do you just insert one after the other?

I've done it both ways; some types of tape come off in developer, leading to problems, but without tape, the film can overlap, causing problems. I've only done it in Paterson (compatible) equipment; with a Jobo reel this is a moot question, as they have a tab that separates the rolls. With the *right* tape, the tape stays on and the film behaves as it should. I've also used a short piece clipped from the plastic binder's clip strip, but found that made the end of the roll too thick for the next roll to wind over it.

I haven't noticed any problems with the development other than loose tape or overlapping ends as noted above. No additional time is needed as long as there's enough solution for the area of film (and there should be, since 2x120 is about the same developer volume as 2x135-36).

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've done the tape method and its a pain in the ass to get both films' edges to align in the dark.

When I'm taping I wind the end of the first roll about as half turn past the entry, then start the second roll and catch it up. This keeps everything aligned, but makes it hard to apply enough pressure to make the tape secure and liquid-proof...

 

[David R Williams]

I do it regularly, using the AP version of reels that fit the Paterson tanks.
I don't use tape, other than folding over the existing tape to stiffen the leading edge of the film before loading. I load and advance the first roll as far as it can go into the reel. For the last part of that, I just push the film along, using the flat part of my fingernail on the edge of the film. It moves easily, and I can easily feel when it reaches the end. After that I load and advance the second roll only as far as necessary to clear the ball bearings. That leaves a decent gap between the rolls.
I use the following agitation regime:
1) continuous reversing rotary agitation for the first 30 seconds in the developer;
2) inversion agitation of 5 seconds every 30 seconds for the rest of the development time;
3) continuous reversing rotary agitation for the rest of the procedures.
If I use continuous reversing rotary agitation for the rest of the development time, the films seem to move a lot within the reels, and are vulnerable to ending up overlapping each other. I guess they must be slipperier when in the developer, because using the rotary agitation for the rest of the procedure doesn't result in issues with overlapping. I could elect to use all rotary agitation for single reel rolls, and the aforesaid mixture for dual roll reels, but I prefer to standardize on a single approach.
Using the specified regime, I get the same results as doing single rolls. I use replenished XTol as a developer, and in order to maintain consistency, I always use a full litre of developer in my 1 litre capacity tank. As the other steps in the procedure are done with my tank rotating on its side, I am comfortable using a smaller amount of those other chemicals - 600 ml works well.
I don't possess the necessary two handed dexterity to be able to reliably tape the two rolls together.
My two 120 reel Paterson Super System IV tank works great on a Beseler rotary agitator.
I don't modify any times in the rest of the procedure, although I obviously calculate capacity and replenishment numbers based on the number of films developed.

I do exactly what Matt does. With exactly the same equipment and results as the larger feed flanges on the AP reels are MUCH easier to load with 120 film than the original Paterson reels.

 

[gorbas]

One thing I noticed when loading two 120 films with tape is that after processing, a lot of the sticky residues from the tape gets inside the grooves of the reels. So just clean them with running hot water and dish detergent and they'll be fine.

Hi Yola, interesting! I never noticed that. So far I used Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, Foma and ORWO 120 films. I did not close examine recently kind of tape they used to secure film to the paper tape, but when I looked at it long time ago, it was not kind of same tape as "post stamp" - activated by the moisture. If you leave tape on the top of the first film and staple 2nd, you then can cut out remains of 2nd tape on the film.

 

[gorbas]

Stapling is genius!
The first two times I tried taping two together it worked really well. The next half dozen times it didnt and eventually I gave up. The stress and fiddling usually ended up with me buckling somethign end ended up with the fingernail things.

Thank you Tcolgate!