Questions ... first time printing !

[macgreg]

I have been developing my films on my own for quite sometime and I recently decided to try printing ! Nice, right ?
Well, I have a couple of questions and forgive me in advance if they might be silly ....

1. I will be using 30x40 cm developing trays. How much chemical should I pour in every tray ? Is the volume specific or should I use as much needed to cover the paper and let it "bathe" freely ?
2. When I develop film, I prepare each time only what I need for the development and then I throw them away. I don't develop every day, so keeping them and reusing them isn't going to work. But for the prints, I think I will be doing it more often cause there is a lot to learn so keeping them is crucial. I can reuse the stop bath and the fixer, correct ? How much time can they be preserved, diluted of course ?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I would cover the stop bath and fixer but the solutions should be fine for several days.

Tom

 

[JW PHOTO]

A lot depends on the developer used, but most, actually all as far as I know, will have instructions for "How to develop your film" sheet. I don't know how deep your trays are, but I like at least about 3/4" to 1" or 2cm in mine. Some developers last for a couple of days in trays and other don't last 24hrs.. You can get the developer to last longer in a tray if you lay a piece of plastic wrap directly onto(float it) the developer in the tray so as to seal it. You can reuse your fixer, but you dump your stop bath after your printing session since it's super cheap. Everybody has their own way of doing things, but some of it is pretty basic. I'd just follow the manufactures directions and if you have any questions or problem post them here. Have fun! JW

 

[Rick A]

For 8x10 inch prints(smaller tray than yours) I use one liter of developer. You could probably use the same or more for 11x14 trays. I use Ethol brand LPD developer, and store the diluted (working strength) solution in a full, tightly capped bottle between sessions. This developer keeps for months sometimes between uses with no signs of weakening. I also keep my diluted stop and fix in tightly capped bottles when not in use.

 

[mr rusty]

I find 750ml of developer and stop absolutely fine in both 8x10 and 9x12 - yes its not very deep, but slight tray movement helps. Good compromise between working volume and waste. Rebottled, I find working strength paper developer does actually keep a week at least with no issues I can detect (Ilford multigrade & warmtone). Stop I reuse a few times. Fix I tend to use 1 litre and keep track of how many prints it has been used for. I usually use it up to about 60-70% of Ilfords stated capacity, then start again. I haven't got the space for 2-bath fix, but if you have its the way to go.

 

[bernard_L]

I will be using 30x40 cm developing trays.

30x40cm paper costs >1€($) per sheet, and since

I recently decided to try printing

you seem to be a beginner in that respect (nothing wrong with that) I'd suggest that you start with a smaller size,like 8x10" or 5x7", so you can afford to make mistakes and learn from them.
I'd also suggest that you start with RC multigrade paper pearl or semi-matte, again to learn without undue hassle; then change to fiber when you feel you are ready.

When I develop film, I prepare each time only what I need for the development and then I throw them away.

Definitely you should keep and reuse more than once stop and fix, whether film or paper (but have separate solutions film/paper). Stop bath, if designed well should have an incorporated pH color indicator. Fixer (whether film or paper): when new, measure how long it takes to clear a piece of blank film (should be approx 30s). Replace when that time has doubled or when the manufacturer stated lifetime for the working strength has been reached; always fix film for at least twice the time it takes to clear (you can look at it as soon as it's in the fixer, nothing wrong will happen).

How much chemical should I pour in every tray?

Since I re-use stop and fix, I make up 1 litre, nicely filled bottle (although maybe stop and fix don't oxidize like dev). Film dev is always one-shot (D-76 1:1, HC-110, Rodinal). Paper dev is not expected to last more than one session (1 or maybe 2 days, back to bottle for the night) so I prepare the minimum: 0.5 litre for 18x24cm 1 litre for 30x40cm. I need to check, but unless I would do series produciton of the same print, the pape dev will become stale from air oxidation rather than from paper area.

 

[macgreg]

Thank you for the input, that was fast !!

I am not going to start printing large of course !! I will start with 5x7 , I just want bigger trays for future bigger prints. No need to buy again new ones !!

From what I see, I will have to test how much liquid to use, pouring just water and see how much is need to cover about 2 cm of the tray.
And I can reuse all the chemicals, but I do think that I will be discarding the developer, just to be sure and keep the other 2.

 

[Rick A]

The problem with larger than necessary trays is the developer oxidizes faster, and shortens useful life. Use trays just slightly larger than the print size you are printing.

 

[Xmas]

5x7 is too big get a few boxes of postcard x100 then go to 5x7.

If you can burn and dodge on 5x7 then go large.

Don't try difficult negatives for a long time.

I dont use much developer in a tray cause I tip the tray lay the print face up in dry side and then tip back to flood paper and rock for the full three mins. I don't stop until the three min alarm rings.

Id snatch otherwise.

I set the 3 min timer for fix as well and turn on white light when it rings.

Use rubber gloves if you are not organic chemist, the organic chemists won't need to be told...

 

[macgreg]

Ok, very useful tips, thanks guys.

BTW, what timer do you use when you go to the chemicals ?

 

[Rick A]

I use very cheap digital count down timers purchased from the Dollar store. I set one for developing and a second one for fixing times.

 

[ROL]

Using Photographers Formulary TF4 or TF5 fixers will mean only one tray to keep over until your next session, until exhausted, as your "stop" (e.g., rinse) will then be only water. Covering is a good idea between sessions, if only to reduce odor. Use sufficient working strength chemical to allow prints of any size per tray volume to swim freely, as you have surmised. Most developers, ANSCO 130 being an exception, oxidize quickly enough that they are only optimally active for one printing session. Agitate by sloshing (or posting here on APUG ).

 

[andrew.roos]

Ok, very useful tips, thanks guys.

BTW, what timer do you use when you go to the chemicals ?

For film developing, the excellent free Darkroom Timer android app.
For prints the analog clock on the darkroom wall which has a second hand and an audible tick!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[MattKing]

Don't worry too much about using too much.

Although wasted chemicals aren't great, wasted paper and time are worse.

I use 1 litre for 8x10 trays and 1.89 litres (64 oz) for 11x14 trays. At the end of each session, I either discard the solutions or, if I will be continuing the next day, I calculate how much use I have had of them (using the manufacturer's capacity info) and, if there is still capacity available, I bottle the remaining chemicals, for reuse the next day.

And I too use a clock with a sweep second hand for timing my prints.

 

[macgreg]

Thanks again guys for the help !! I have already started saving money as I am not going to buy large trays for the time being.
I will get 20x25cm trays and learn with smaller papers. i think it's the wisest thing to do. Later, if I have super good photos that would look good in bigger print, I will start printing larger.

I guess that a simple clock will do (that was way too easy !!).

andrew.ross I just got the app you wrote to test it next time I develop, thanks !!

 

[NedL]

For 8x10 inch prints(smaller tray than yours) I use one liter of developer. You could probably use the same or more for 11x14 trays. I use Ethol brand LPD developer, and store the diluted (working strength) solution in a full, tightly capped bottle between sessions. This developer keeps for months sometimes between uses with no signs of weakening. I also keep my diluted stop and fix in tightly capped bottles when not in use.

You are going to have so much fun!

I also use LPD and keep the developer, stop and fix in bottles between printing sessions. I use 500 ml plastic bottles. I replace the stop bath when I replace the fixer, which I use until I'm getting close to the recommendation in the fixer data sheet. I have a little "tally board" and after each printing session I mark how much paper has been fixed. My LPD is replenished, so it is always ready to use, but I use the "tally board" for that too, to know when it is time to replenish.

Before this, I used dektol and kept it in a bottle between uses. I usually replaced the dektol after 3 or 4 days... No big deal, and as others pointed out it is not expensive.

Have fun!

 

[Rick A]

I love LPD, it's economical because of its keeping properties. I also like that you can use different dilutions for cool or warm tones without sacrificing development times.

 

[cliveh]

I would cover the stop bath and fixer but the solutions should be fine for several days.

Tom

Why would you cover these?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Why would you cover these?

To reduce evaporation.

Tom

 

[macgreg]

Well, as for developers I can find Ilford and Agfa Print so I will start with one of them.

 

[Rick A]

I would cover the stop bath and fixer but the solutions should be fine for several days.

Tom

It only takes a few seconds to return solutions to a bottle, less chance of anything happening to them. With anything left out, there's always a chance of an accident like something dropped or bumping the trays, also stops evaporation(which merely covering a tray does not). I recommend a filter funnel to remove debris, IMO helps keep prints cleaner. You would be surprised at what is left in the filter after a printing session.
Now is the time to start developing(pun intended) good DR habits, no shortcuts and practice good housekeeping. Keep good notes and create a routine to reduce the probability of a careless mistake. Label EVERYTHING.

 

[dorff]

Paper developer tells you when it is exhausted. It starts to take longer to see an image! With fresh developer, it should take between 10 and 20 seconds to see your image appear. If it takes longer than a minute to see a proper image, you know it is time for a new batch, as even if it looks okay at first glance, your blacks won't develop to max density. Most MQ/PQ paper developers last many months if you pour it back into a storage bottle. I use 5L PET water bottles, which is more than adequate for me. Ascorbate developers don't last nearly as long, and have to be made up fresh. Expect about two days out of them, and be thankful for anything more than that.

As for fixer, follow the manufacturer's instructions. If you lose track, the easiest way is to use an undeveloped film leader. Usable fixer will clear it, while depleted fixer will only half-clear it or take a long time to clear it completely. There are chemical tests for fixer quality and fixer clearing from the print, but they require raw chemicals. The Darkroom Cookbook describes recipes for them. I find it a bit cumbersome, so for RC paper I do the leader test if I am in doubt. For fibre-based paper and serious work, I keep strictly to the instructions.

As for quantities - I find 2 cm of depth about right. A large tray ankle deep in liquid is not a nice thing to handle, and fixer sloshing out in your darkroom, bathroom or kitchen is NOT what you want! I also find that it is more difficult to lift a piece of paper covered by shallow liquid without causing kinks. This is because one generally has to press it tightly down to the bottom of the tray to get enough liquid over it. In deeper liquid it can rest loosely, which won't create a vacuum effect when you lift it up. So for my 12x16 trays I use about 2,5 litres, and it gets returned to the storage container after a printing session. No matter what I do, I always get fluff/dust into my developing liquids. IDK whether it comes off me or the paper or whether it is just dust falling in. Either way, I filter everything before I store it, and it is surprising how much gunk comes out in the process.

If you share the house with young kids or animals, make sure they can't pull or knock a tray full of developer or fixer off the shelf. I.e. lock the room if you are not going to pour the liquids into bottles. You'll spend days cleaning up first the perpetrator and then the room afterwards. If you touch fixer residue without knowing it, and then handle undeveloped paper, the paper will be ruined. This has happened to me, so I can speak from experience. So clean every square centimeter and keep it clean.

 

[macgreg]

Thanks dorff, very useful post !

 

[macgreg]

I started printing yesterday and I have to say that I;m in love with the process !!

I use Ilford developer and fixer. The fixer is supposed to be able to fix about 80 RC 8x10 papers and I have only printed so far about 5 photos, 5x7. So, if I bottle the fixer it will last quite some time, right ? Same for the stop. I have one from Agfa, says it's indicating stop bath and I think it will change color under the safe light if gone bad. I might keep the developer too and see after how long it will start fading.

If I keep them in air tight bottles, in a dark, dry room, will they last long ? Or should I make new ones after some time, just to be sure ?

 

[Xmas]

If you run out of stop dilute white wine vinegar from kitchen.

When you get to prints with the woooooa factor you need to start using hypo clear.

In forty years...