fully developed a scrap if exposed film and bleached it as normal. After the 2 bleach steps and clearing bath, the film was still opaque and yellow, and when put in developer again it turns almost completely black. This is even after mixing up a bit of fresh bleach.
I believe you're talking about Copper bleach here. Looks like the first step (negative silver image to silver chloride) worked but the second one (clearing of silver chloride) didn't. Check your Ammonia. It needs to be at least 2% and reasonably fresh.
Try a more regular, dependable bleach.Ferric chloride, actually.
Ferric chloride, actually. Not copper. And I used a bit of ammonia straight from the bottle, should be 10%, but might be a bit less now. Smelled fucking awful so I know it’s still good..
Try a more regular, dependable bleach.
Let's see if we can diagnose this. Today I tried the same test as you and I got good results. Let's see... this is what I did:
Exposure: I exposed the film to room lights and held the film close to a lightbulb.
1st Developer: Paper developer with a strong dilution (Eco Pro 1+4) for 10 full minutes.
I am 100% sure that this is way overkill, but I really wanted to make sure that 100% of the silver was developed. The easiest way for the test to fail is if the initial development is insufficient.\\
Stop Bath: 2 minutes.
Bleach: Ferric chloride with water in a 1+1 ratio for 5 minutes.
Sodium Sulfite Bath: 2 minutes. ---- Causes a red powdery substance. The liquid gets quite "dirty".
Ammonia Bath: 2 minutes. ---- This might have been the stage when the film turned transparent, but I'm not sure. I couldn't get a good look at the film when it was inside the sulfite bath.
Wash: 2 minutes under the faucet. I actually scrubbed the film with my (gloved) fingers.
2nd Developer: I just put the film back in the same developer for another 3 minutes.
Did not see any development at all. The film stayed just as clear as when it came out of the ammonia bath.
Stop Bath: 2 minutes.
Fixer: 2 minutes.
Do any of these steps look different from what you did?
If you apply some sensible work practices, you end up with some chromium (III) or metallic manganese, neither of which are major concerns either way, and some sulfate. Not so pretty if you use kilos of the stuff, but the few grams you need to process a box of film...well. Let's not exaggerate. If you want to steer clear of the dichromate, which I can very well imagine, permanganate is in my view a perfectly reasonable alternative. It's sold to combat fungal infections in Koi fish and to disinfect water in survival situations, to name a few. Again, not nice if you dump a kilo into a nearby stream. In small amounts, just not much of a concern. I honestly don't see the problem with sulfuric acid if people use hydroxide to make their developer concentrate without batting an eye, or glacial acetic acid to mix a stop bath. Risk perception and management in home darkroom situations can be a really funny, irrational affair much of the time.After the potassium dichromate and permanganate bleaches, the next most "regular" bleach uses sulfuric acid.
After the 2 bleach steps and clearing bath, the film was still opaque and yellow, and when put in developer again it turns almost completely black.
Right. The ammonia isn't dissolving the rehalogenated (and exposed) silver. See my edit above -- warmer, longer bath time, or stronger ammonia are the things to try. Make sure you have only pure sodium chloride as the halide donor in the bleach bath, no bromide or iodide (I don't know how much trouble the tiny amount of iodide in table salt would cause, but use kosher or non-iodized if that's your source of additional chloride. You might also check that fixer will dissolve the yellow halide, just to be sure it isn't some other silver compound that's developable, but not soluble in ammonium hydroxide.
There shouldn’t be any bromine or iodine in there at all.
Is this circuit board etching solution, or lab grade ferric chloride? Etching solution might have stuff in it to make it work better on copper...
Is this circuit board etching solution, or lab grade ferric chloride? Etching solution might have stuff in it to make it work better on copper...
It’s this stuff.
I have been doing the clearing bath after the ammonia. I also use Dektol 1+3 for about 3-4 minutes.
Are you guys doing all of this in room light by chance? I have been because I didn’t think it mattered for this test?
So, my bleach is literally just ferric chloride 1:1 with water. Give me a minute and I can show you the bottle of ferric chloride. There shouldn’t be any bromine or iodine in there at all.
Are you guys using tap or distilled or deionized water for the bleach and clear baths? Tap water has chloride ions that affects the bleaching ability: https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PBR/pbr.html
Also just re-reading it again, ferric chloride... so you probably have free chloride ions that's causing all these issues. Where did you guys read that this is a useful bleach for black and white reversal?
This is the point. It’s a regal bleach meant to turn Ag into AGgCl. Putting clouded ions in solution is the entire point.Also just re-reading it again, ferric chloride... so you probably have free chloride ions that's causing all these issues. Where did you guys read that this is a useful bleach for black and white reversal?
This is after both bleach steps and the clearing bath.Q: What did the film look like after the ammonia bath? It should be clear. Like... absolutely clear. Just the film base. When I held my film to the light it was obvious that the 2nd developer wasn't going to do anything and I just put it int he developer to confirm.
I just used the 1 gallon container of ammonia you can get from Ace Hardware.Q: What are you using for the ammonia bath? I used the regular ammonia cleaner from Walmart. The house brand. No dilution at all.
This is after both bleach steps and the clearing bath.
I think you forgot to attach the photo.
I mean, the photo I shared previously was after the bleach and clear baths.
If you apply some sensible work practices, you end up with some chromium (III) or metallic manganese, neither of which are major concerns either way, and some sulfate. Not so pretty if you use kilos of the stuff, but the few grams you need to process a box of film...well. Let's not exaggerate. If you want to steer clear of the dichromate, which I can very well imagine, permanganate is in my view a perfectly reasonable alternative. It's sold to combat fungal infections in Koi fish and to disinfect water in survival situations, to name a few. Again, not nice if you dump a kilo into a nearby stream. In small amounts, just not much of a concern. I honestly don't see the problem with sulfuric acid if people use hydroxide to make their developer concentrate without batting an eye, or glacial acetic acid to mix a stop bath. Risk perception and management in home darkroom situations can be a really funny, irrational affair much of the time.
And if one wants to avoid handlng Sulphuric Acid directly when making the bleach, Sodium Bisulphate crystals can be used as a substitute.
There is nothing wrong with experimenting with chemistries for film reversal. No-one is breaking any rules if they want to experiment with using citric acid, or ammonium chloride, both of which were done by @relistan in the copper sulfate thread, or sulfamic acid, or ferric chloride, both of which I suggested in the first post of this thread. I obtained chemistry to do several of these types of bleach and I will enjoy experimenting with them at my leisure. I grabbed the ferric chloride only because that's what MCB18 chose and I wanted to see if I had the same problems.
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