Question: Has there been any discussions regarding photographing children?

[Larryc001]

Seems like I’ve generated a bit of a storm here. To summarize, it helps if you look non-threatening. It helps if you ask first. It helps if you have a female an/or a dog with you. At the first sight of trouble, grab your gear and get the hell out. Cops are not helpful. Law and rights be damned, no one wins a fight with an angry and protective mama bear when it comes to her cubs. Do not disregard signs on private property (malls, restaurants, etc.) I would not recommend following the advice to “sneak” pictures with your cellphone. This could result in more than a long talk with the cops if you are caught. Plus if you have to sneak pictures, perhaps you shouldn’t be doing it in the first place. As far as posting kids pictures on here or anywhere else, you are getting into very dark territory. In my business, no model release means no posting, sale or display. Even have to blur out faces of bystanders. Talks is cheap, but you only need to be sued or arrested once. And how does one answer the question “what are you going to do with the pictures?” And so on. Maybe it’s just wise to not photograph kids, period.

 

[Cholentpot]

The problem is they stop taking their meds.

And they're worse coming down than going on. Go read about the recent studies about chemical imbalance. Whoops. We got that wrong too.

If you believe that you're either not paying attention or living in a bubble.

Violent crimes are way down in the past 25 years. We've had a bump since 2020 but we've not reached the levels of the 70's.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/ I'm not gonna dig for you but the numbers don't lie.

 

[GRHazelton]

Do you find that after security at the mall reads that, they let you go ahead and photograph customers and their children?

So far I haven't had to use Bert Krages' Photographers Rights, Whether or not Mall Security would BOTHER to read it is another matter.

 

[guangong]

If you believe that you're either not paying attention or living in a bubble.

Ditto!
Also, I have no idea what leaded gasoline has to do with violence!

 

[MattKing]

As a moderator, I'm shaking my head at all the places this thread has been.
But I'll take my moderator's hat off to say: children are a source of joy for so many people, and they make for wonderful photos. The suspicion that has arose around the desire of photographers to take photos of children for perfectly positive and healthy reasons is a tragedy.

 

[GRHazelton]

Ditto!
Also, I have no idea what leaded gasoline has to do with violence!

Leaded gasoline releases lead into the environment. Lead is highly toxic to humans, IRRC it affects brain development and thus may well affect one's self control. BTW again, IRRC, lead is very difficult to remove from one's body.

 

[Larryc001]

As a moderator, I'm shaking my head at all the places this thread has been.
But I'll take my moderator's hat off to say: children are a source of joy for so many people, and they make for wonderful photos. The suspicion that has arose around the desire of photographers to take photos of children for perfectly positive and healthy reasons is a tragedy.

Matt I do agree in part with your post. My question was more related to the difficulty photographers face when doing this. Some good points have been raised. Things are no longer what they used to be. There is a big risk in doing pictures of kids not related. The risk is no longer just being told to take a hike. It could result in an ambulance ride, loss of equipment, or worse. I have published several books filled with pictures of my grandchildren, but I don’t think I would do that today. I am sure my daughters were uncomfortable with it even then, and now would probably not permit it.

 

[Cholentpot]

Ditto!
Also, I have no idea what leaded gasoline has to do with violence!

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/ Just for you ol' buddy 'ol pal.

Leaded gasoline releases lead into the environment. Lead is highly toxic to humans, IRRC it affects brain development and thus may well affect one's self control. BTW again, IRRC, lead is very difficult to remove from one's body.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkn...ricas-violent-crime-epidemic/?sh=7340084112c4

That old Ethyl sure was a wonder invention.

 

[Larryc001]

I really don’t see what leaded gasoline has to do with this thread, or for that matter with this forum.

 

[GRHazelton]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/ Just for you ol' buddy 'ol pal.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkn...ricas-violent-crime-epidemic/?sh=7340084112c4

That old Ethyl sure was a wonder invention.

Thanks for taking the time to verify my recollections!

 

[Cholentpot]

I really don’t see what leaded gasoline has to do with this thread, or for that matter with this forum.

A perceived uptick in violent society has led to people being more protective in public. I postulated that society is less violent than ever and backed it up with data and the reason why society is less violent today then in the past.

 

[Helge]

One interesting thing to ponder: Does this recent trend mean that candid “non concentual” photos taken of children, and people in general, in “the past” including masterpieces like the aforementioned ones by HCB, are now evil and wrong? Should they be canceled? How? And from what cutoff date?

 

[Steven Lee]

This is pretty simple. Discussing societal norms on photrio is not going to help making better photos.

Your actionable item here is to conform to these societal norms or not. Being a conformist is safe and requires no effort. However, anything truly great only comes from crossing the boundaries and showing a middle finger to someone or something. Yes, this means risking a fistfight with a moron father in a park.

This is true not just with photography but with everything. However, you have to be selective with your non-conformism, because if you stop following the rules on everything you'll quickly end up in jail or dead. When it comes to photography, I choose to conform. I ask people's permission, I avoid kids altogether, etc. My results are shit of course, but I am lucky to have bigger passions to reserve my middle finger for.

 

[Helge]

This is pretty simple. Discussing societal norms on photrio is not going to help making better photos.

Your actionable item here is to conform to these societal norms or not. Being a conformist is safe and requires no effort. However, anything truly great only comes from crossing the boundaries and showing a middle finger to someone or something. Yes, this means risking a fistfight with a moron father in a park.

This is true not just with photography but with everything. However, you have to be selective with your non-conformism, because if you stop following the rules on everything you'll quickly end up in jail or dead. When it comes to photography, I choose to conform. I ask people's permission, I avoid kids altogether, etc. My results are shit of course, but I am lucky to have bigger passions to reserve my middle finger for.

That doesn’t sound simple.
It sounds insanely complicated.

 

[Steven Lee]

@Helge Why? I am now blaming myself for poor communication! I meant to say that if you believe that you're missing a perfect image for your portfolio just because a subject is a child, you must make a simple choice: getting an image vs conforming to whatever people currently believe you should conform to.

 

[MattKing]

Most of us will prioritize the fears and concerns of those around us respecting children over the extremely little value of one more photograph in the sea of photography.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Leaded gasoline releases lead into the environment. Lead is highly toxic to humans, IRRC it affects brain development and thus may well affect one's self control. BTW again, IRRC, lead is very difficult to remove from one's body.

In the US lead was removed from gasoline many years ago.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I really don’t see what leaded gasoline has to do with this thread, or for that matter with this forum.

Absolutely nothing.

 

[Sirius Glass]

A perceived uptick in violent society has led to people being more protective in public. I postulated that society is less violent than ever and backed it up with data and the reason why society is less violent today then in the past.

When one takes nothing and uses logic with said nothing, the result is still nothing. There is nothing in you statement nor signs of any lock.

 

[Cholentpot]

In the US lead was removed from gasoline many years ago.

Some time in the 70's. That left the people that were born earlier who had been affected by the fumes to do what they did. The kids born after are less violent in general.

I made the connection of why society in general now does not approve of taking photos of children in the public space. I then stated that I think that society has wrong assumptions about safety in general and backed it up with data but it seems that it's hard to dissuade a lifetime of media influence. So I'll make it simple.

People are afraid of the world because they've been told to be afraid. They'll over shelter their children and lash out at strangers. Statistics and data does not back up this fear.

 

[Steven Lee]

Most of us will prioritize the fears and concerns of those around us respecting children over the extremely little value of one more photograph in the sea of photography.

Some of us prioritize great work over personality faults and mental disorders of those around us. At least that's my hope. I am betting on NB23 doing the right thing

People are afraid of the world because they've been told to be afraid. They'll over shelter their children and lash out at strangers. Statistics and data does not back up this fear.

well said.

 

[MattKing]

Some of us prioritize great work over personality faults and mental disorders of those around us.

Fear for the safety of the children around us is far from a personality fault or mental disorder - even if it is sometimes based on erroneous assumptions.
And the vast majority of photographs of children are not great - even if they are made by photographers who have made great photographs in the past, or will make great photographs in the future - of other subjects.
I am sure that there are specific situations where it is necessary to photograph children to tell very important stories. But I am equally sure that those situations are rare, and in most cases the needs for that photography can be met by first obtaining informed consent from the parents/guardians of those children and, in many cases, the children themselves.
If by "great work" one means nothing more than visually arresting photographs, then I'm sorry but the societal value of those photographs is so little in comparison with the value of privacy and security for children, as to be not worthy of consideration. Take steps to protect those concerns - e.g. obtaining informed consent - and those concerns disappear.

 

[Daniela]

Since the topic of mental illness came up, I need to mention this.

There never were school shootings like we have now. Videos of crimes are readily available today. What we used to just read about we can now see. Some of it is really scary. Nuts are walking around. We used to institutionalize them years ago. So the danger level has escalated; people are scared for their kids and themselves.

Please, let's be careful with the whole "mental illness = violent behavior" idea. While some symptoms of certain mental illnesses do make people more prone to have violent outbursts, other factors need to be present for the risk of violence to actually be higher than for a person without a mental illness. This issue is much more complex, and we are all better served by understanding that mental illness is, above all, about pain, just like any physical illness. And none of us are exempt from experiencing one in the course of our lives. Knowing more about it helps with understanding, and seeking support when needed, either for ourselves or others.

Here's just one article that goes into it a little bit: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2021/04/ce-mental-illness# If you don't feel like reading it, here are the key points:

Key points​

1. The vast majority of violent acts are not due to mental illness, and most people with mental illness are not violent.
2. When people with mental illness do commit violence, it is often due to contextual or background factors such as a history of childhood physical abuse, living in poor and/or dangerous neighborhoods, or using substances.
3. Factors that predict violence in general—antisocial behavior, substance use, and anger issues, for example—also predict violence in individuals with mental illness.

 

[halfaman]

I frequently take pictures of children in the local parks with absolutely no problem. I keep at a distance that doesn’t intrude into their playing space. Often I engage in a conversation with the parents.

I completely agree.

Don't hide, be part of what you are photographing, talk with your subjects (or legal tutors) and give them some sort of contact (phone, email, webpage, IG, twitter...). You may or may not take pictures but will keep you out of problems afterwards.

 

[Don_ih]

And the vast majority of photographs of children are not great - even if they are made by photographers who have made great photographs in the past, or will make great photographs in the future - of other subjects.
I am sure that there are specific situations where it is necessary to photograph children to tell very important stories. But I am equally sure that those situations are rare, ... the societal value of those photographs is so little in comparison with the value of privacy and security for children, as to be not worthy of consideration. Take steps to protect those concerns - e.g. obtaining informed consent - and those concerns disappear.

That's not a compelling argument, since the vast majority of photos are neither great nor of particular social importance. No one is concerned with those photos. The fact is, in order to get great photos and photos of social importance, you may need to disregard the contextual and temporary concerns of the individuals involved. It's more a matter of what you, as a photographer, are trying to do.
Socially important photos tend to remain important when removed from the time and context of the photo. Great photos, one could say, transcend those concerns entirely.
No one ever needed to know Napalm Girl's real name.