Pyrocat HD: I'm loosing patience.

[noseoil]

Steve,

Still not clear to me how the stuff is being used. If you mix one batch, develop one sheet, start over with a second sheet after processing the first, then functionally you are using it twice. Mix once. Develop once. Dump. If you are doing sequential development with one batch, that is the problem. Do both sheets at once, or cut your volume in half and mix the second batch when you are ready for the second sheet. Add "B" to ["A" plus water] which can sit for a little while, if using distilled water. Don't let the mixed solution sit mixed for a while and then develop. tim

 

[photomc]

Hi Lee,
Your 1040 mL Liter, is that for one load of negatives? How many negatives do you do in the 1040? You don't use some, and store the rest do you?

Hi Bruce,
Not Lee, of course, but he and I do pretty much the same process..except I use the Beseler drums. Last weekend I processed 4 - 4x5 sheets, several times, and since the Beseler drums tend to leak if too full, I used 250ml of the 1040 for each round of negatives. When I finish, whatever did not get used - or has sat out very long (over 8 hours - when the color starts to change, I figure it's done), I just toss it. Since it is so cheap, it is safer to toss and mix fresh than risk it on the negatives.

The Pyrocat-HD using now was mixed from raw chemicals from ArtCraft..they can make up a kit for 100ml of stock or 1000ml, and anything in between I would guess. I really do understand how you feel, but got some negatives on Monday that look really nice...hope to print them this weekend. So hang in there, it is worth the effort.

NOTE:Just read Tim's post just above this one and would agree with him about not letting the mixed a+b+water sit very long before using it. Or if you do, make sure you know how long you let it sit before it goes bad.

 

[Steve Hamley]

Steve,

Still not clear to me how the stuff is being used. If you mix one batch, develop one sheet, start over with a second sheet after processing the first, then functionally you are using it twice. Mix once. Develop once. Dump. If you are doing sequential development with one batch, that is the problem. Do both sheets at once, or cut your volume in half and mix the second batch when you are ready for the second sheet. Add "B" to ["A" plus water] which can sit for a little while, if using distilled water. Don't let the mixed solution sit mixed for a while and then develop. tim

Tim,

I work at a national lab that's full of chemists. They tell me that there should be no diference in doing 2 sheets at once versus two sheets in sequence with the same quart of developer in a tray unless the developer is oxidizing in the tray in the 30 minutes it takes to do two sheets in sequence. All that matters is having a sufficient quantity of active chemical to develop the given area of film. If the developer oxidizes to uselessness in 30 minutes in a tray, it's time to switch, although I'm beginning to suspect my stock solutions are just too old.

Here's how I've been using it, step-by-step.

Mix 1 quart Pyrocat HD 2:2:100 from PF liquid using distilled water. Solutions measured using a volute so there's no cross contamination, last batch add 20ml "A" to a rinsed 1-quart bottle, add nearly a full quart distilled water, then add 20 ml "B". 1000 ml total. Shake well, stored in a closed 1-quart container and used within an hour although I typically use it quicker than this.

Put 1 quart developer in an 11x14 tray.
Develop first sheet of 8x10, stop and fix.
Develop second sheet in same 1 quart solution, stop and fix.

So 1 quart should be enough since the recommended volume is 300ml per 8x10 sheet.

Steve

 

[Ole]

I work at a national lab that's full of chemists. They tell me that there should be no diference in doing 2 sheets at once versus two sheets in sequence with the same quart of developer in a tray unless the developer is oxidizing in the tray in the 30 minutes it takes to do two sheets in sequence. All that matters is having a sufficient quantity of active chemical to develop the given area of film. If the developer oxidizes to uselessness in 30 minutes in a tray, it's time to switch, although I'm beginning to suspect my stock solutions are just too old....

Even if I'm a chemist myself, this is a time where you'd have got a better answer from an engineer!

Pyrocat-HD does oxidise in the tray. Not to uselessness, but close.

Developer is not a catalyst. It is consumed in the process. Processing two films in sequence in a highly dilute developer ensures that the second film is souped in developer with less than half the strength that the first one was souped in.

Your chemists are thinking of processes that run to completion - in which case they are correct. But development is rarely carried to completion, so the dynamics of the reaction are important.

You are processing two sheets in two very different developers - no wonder you don't get the same result!

 

[Bruce Osgood]

Hmmmm,
Thanks Mike, another can of worms to work thru..

I have been mixing my working solution at room temperature and refrigerating it to 15-16 degrees C and then let it rise in the temper bath to 20C.

The chilling and the tempering takes time. Next time I will try chilling the distilled water, add Part A, mx, add Part B, mix and use.

I don't mind making up a 1040 liter and using half of it and tossing the other half but I was told 75mL was ample for one sheet. My last failed attempt I used 500 mL for one sheet.

 

[sanking]

Tim,

I work at a national lab that's full of chemists. They tell me that there should be no diference in doing 2 sheets at once versus two sheets in sequence with the same quart of developer in a tray unless the developer is oxidizing in the tray in the 30 minutes it takes to do two sheets in sequence. All that matters is having a sufficient quantity of active chemical to develop the given area of film. If the developer oxidizes to uselessness in 30 minutes in a tray, it's time to switch, although I'm beginning to suspect my stock solutions are just too old.

Here's how I've been using it, step-by-step.

Mix 1 quart Pyrocat HD 2:2:100 from PF liquid using distilled water. Solutions measured using a volute so there's no cross contamination, last batch add 20ml "A" to a rinsed 1-quart bottle, add nearly a full quart distilled water, then add 20 ml "B". 1000 ml total. Shake well, stored in a closed 1-quart container and used within an hour although I typically use it quicker than this.

Put 1 quart developer in an 11x14 tray.
Develop first sheet of 8x10, stop and fix.
Develop second sheet in same 1 quart solution, stop and fix.

So 1 quart should be enough since the recommended volume is 300ml per 8x10 sheet.

Steve

However, your own experience proves they are wrong. If the first sheet developed has the desired contrast and density and you put another one through there and it is thin, what does that tell you?

As others have said, Pyrocat-HD should be used as a one-shot and discard developer. The way you are using it is definitely not the way it was designed toi be used.

The only situation when it may be ok to re-use the developer is with stand development in tubes where the total quanitity of solution is much greater than what would be necessary with plain rotary agitation in tubes or drum. For example, I use about 500ml of Pyrocat of 1:1:100 solution for developing a sheet of 7X17" film with rotary agitation in a tube, but it takes some six to eight liters to fill a tube to the top. In this type of development it is possible to use the developer for a second sheet of film, but you will need to increase develoment time by about 15% for the second sheet.


Sandy

 

[noseoil]

Steve, sorry, I'm just a dumb construction worker. The only experience I have with chemicals ended years ago, although I do a bit of experimentation with a stout once in a while on weekends! tim

 

[Steve Hamley]

Steve, sorry, I'm just a dumb construction worker. The only experience I have with chemicals ended years ago, although I do a bit of experimentation with a stout once in a while on weekends! tim

Tim,

No you're not - I'm broken and you aren't!! The way to find out is to test, which I plan to do this evening. I'm going to do the same test splitting the 1 quart of developer into 2 500ml batches.

Steve

 

[Steve Hamley]

BTW, I thought I had posted a "thank you" for everyone's advice, but in replying to Tim I didn't see it - so let's try that again. Thanks everyone!

Steve

 

[lee]

Bruce,

I make up the 1040 ml RIGHT before I use it. I develop 4 4x5s and 2 5x7s or 1 8x10 then I throw it out. the chemsitry is too cheap to worry about trying to reuse it.

lee\c

 

[Bruce Osgood]

Bruce,

I make up the 1040 ml RIGHT before I use it. I develop 4 4x5s and 2 5x7s or 1 8x10 then I throw it out. the chemsitry is too cheap to worry about trying to reuse it.

lee\c

I agree "the chemsitry is too cheap to worry about trying to reuse it." And I know you and Mike have a temperature problem in Texas also. So what temperature do you use? It can't be room temp because I bought some bags of ice when I was down there.

Also, the 7 negs of various sizes you describe above, are they processed at once, together, in a single drum? Or are "like" negatives processed together in three batches out of the 1040. If so what happens to the 1040 while you are processing the first batch? It doesn't sit on the counter exposed to room temperature air does it?

I know you all must think me pretty dense but a word of explanation: I'm entering my third week of not smoking after 50+ years of smoking 2 packs a day and find everyday simple tasks a bit challanging.

 

[mark]

I'm entering my third week of not smoking after 50+ years of smoking 2 packs a day and find everyday simple tasks a bit challanging.

Good luck. I was there and got through it. Lobelia root worked for me, took the edge off the cravings. I was still a real B**ch for a couple weeks and still want a cig now and then after haveing quit 10 years ago but it is all worth it when you are no longer a slave.

 

[lee]

first congratulations on the first three weeks of not smoking. Keep up the good work.

I use 75F for the temp. I use use a time of 14min with Efke PL100 which I expose it at EI 50. Each of the sizes I use are what I can process at once. for example 4 4x5s at a time are all I can put into the drum and after those get processed I then throw out the chems then I can process 2 5x7s then throw out the chems and lastly 1 8x10. this is what the Unicolor tank I use will hold. For each size of film and for each run, I make another 1040 ml of working pyrocat hd. I don't reuse the chems with the exception of the fixer

hope this clears up the confusion.

 

[nworth]

Total lack of development is almost always due to the absence of alkali in the developer. I've had it hapen when I grabbed the wrong bottle once. I've mixed as little as 500ml of Pyrocat HD (from Formulary) with no problems at all. Try again.

 

[George Collier]

Don't know too much about Pyrocat, but I read the begining and end of thread - seems impossible for the same A and B mixing mistake to happen more than once, how about that maybe the A and the B are not what you think? 2:2:100 won't help if that is the case. Maybe you just need to remake the A and B?

 

[Bruce Osgood]

Don't know too much about Pyrocat, but I read the begining and end of thread - seems impossible for the same A and B mixing mistake to happen more than once, how about that maybe the A and the B are not what you think? 2:2:100 won't help if that is the case. Maybe you just need to remake the A and B?

Ah, "there's the rub.... ", my Pyrocat HD was bought from Photographers Formulary, new, unused and sealed.

I'm awaiting delivery of raw chemicals (Ordered from PF and confirmed sent to me on Sept 2) to make my own A & B and then I will chuck each brew until I nail this down or run out of chemistry. Once I am a Master of Pyrocat I may chuck the whole idea of stained negatives and Photographers Formulary as a dependable source of materials.

 

[lee]

Les McLean brought over a two part developer we were gonna try with film shot in the workshop. We got clear film and finally discovered that he actually had two Part B's instead of one of each Part A and Part B. So it is not out of the question for this to have happened.

lee\c