Pyro and 35mm?

[waynecrider]

Quick question before I order. I want to use some Acros both in 35mm and 120 and was thinking of choosing PMK Pyro. I can order everything from Calumet and not pay double shipping if I was to choose Rodinal from another source. A blurb I read in the archives from a respected member said maybe not for 35mm. Any hindrances there I should know?

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Count me among those who are really underwhelmed by pyro and don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Take two bodies, make identical shots with both bodies and develop one roll in PMK and one roll in Xtol/D-76/Microdol-X/etc. and make your own judgment. You can't make any meaningful comparison by taking a roll, developing it in Developer A and comparing it to a roll taken last month developed in Developer B.

It isn't the developer that makes the picture. The developer, in a sense, can only detract from the picture. If a stunning picture is taken, and happens to be developed in pyro, it isn't the pyro that takes the credit - the picture would be just as stunning if developed in most any other developer.

 

[Eric Rose]

I had problems with using PyroCat-HD with Classic Pan 400 but have found if I went to a 2:2:100 dilution instead of the usual 1:1:100 and 1/2'd the time things came out wonderful. I will be trying HP5 next. I've never used Acros but if it's anythnig like Delta films PyroCat worked beautifully. But I must admit I was mainly doing night shots at the time (Delta films).

 

[Trevor Crone]

Haven't used 35mm Acros but I did have problems with 4x5 Acros and PMK pyro. Odd small dark marks which I've never had on other films and this developer. Anyway to cut a long story short I processed the remainder of the Acros in Rodinal @ 1:25 with excellent results. And I'm a big fan of pyro developers.

 

[weasel]

PMK Pyro used on Acros 120 has become my standard. EI 50, 11 minutes at 68, condenser enlarger.
Wonderful combination.

 

[PhotoJim]

I like PMK a lot but I confess I haven't used it with Acros yet. With traditional-emulsion films I really like the tonality and I tend to need to dodge and burn less. Perfect? Of course not, but very useful. The near-infinite life of the stock solutions is a real bonus too, so even if it were no better and no worse than D-76 it'd be more useful because of its shelf life.

I primarily use PMK with 35mm. I expect using older pyrogallol developers like D-1 would be a mistake because they tend to accentuate grain terribly, not a problem on 4x5 or 8x10 but a real problem on 35mm. However, PMK is a very modern formulation and it's a different animal indeed.

 

[sanking]

I use a lot of Fuji Acros in 120 size and process it either in Pyrocat-HD or in two-bath D23. Both developers give excellent results in this film size but I think the pyro negatives have slightly higher accutance.

In general I am a big fan of pyro developers and believe they are potentially capable of sharper results than non-tanning developers because the hardening of the gelatin prevents development spread. This is a theoretical issue but in high resolution testing of pyro developers (PMK and Pyrocat-HD) I observed about a 10-15% increase in real resolution compared to Xtol and D76.

In any event, I started a thread on Acros and Pyrocat-HD earlier this year on APUG. See (there was a url link here which no longer exists)


Sandy King

Quick question before I order. I want to use some Acros both in 35mm and 120 and was thinking of choosing PMK Pyro. I can order everything from Calumet and not pay double shipping if I was to choose Rodinal from another source. A blurb I read in the archives from a respected member said maybe not for 35mm. Any hindrances there I should know?

 

[waynecrider]

Haven't used 35mm Acros but I did have problems with 4x5 Acros and PMK pyro. Odd small dark marks which I've never had on other films and this developer. Anyway to cut a long story short I processed the remainder of the Acros in Rodinal @ 1:25 with excellent results. And I'm a big fan of pyro developers.

When I read your post I was remembering about just reading in the Film Dev. Cookbook about Hutchings development procedure. I wonder if it has anything to do with the agitation and the film as a combo.

I like PMK a lot but I confess I haven't used it with Acros yet.

The reason for using the Acros is the great reciprocity characteristic. I'm looking to do some night work.

Sandy, what's the shelf life of Pyrocat-HD?

 

[sanking]

If you mix it yourself, or buy it in a kit where Solution A is mixed in water, the shelf life is 9-12 months in partially full bottles.

If you mix in glycol, or buy one of the Formulary kits mixed in glycol, the shelf life is pretty much indefinite unless the solution is contaminated.

Sandy

Sandy, what's the shelf life of Pyrocat-HD?

 

[cdholden]

I recently picked up a Pyrocat HD kit from Bostick-Sullivan, but haven't had time to try it out yet. For the sake of my hectic work schedule, how much longer is the shelf life of the powdered Solution A if no water is added?
Chris

 

[Ian Grant]

If you mix it yourself, or buy it in a kit where Solution A is mixed in water, the shelf life is 9-12 months in partially full bottles.

If you mix in glycol, or buy one of the Formulary kits mixed in glycol, the shelf life is pretty much indefinite unless the solution is contaminated.

Sandy

The type of container is very important. I made up Pyrocat HD and stored it in 200ml semi transparent plastic bottles the shelf life was around 6 months. Using the same chemicals I made up a couple of litres of Part A, this time stored in old 1 litre Ilford developer bottles, one is now 18 months old and still perfect in a half full bottle (no glycol). If the Potassium Metabisulphite is fresh when you amke it up the shelf life improves enormously, as the SO2 preserves the Pyrocatechin.

Ian

 

[Philippe-Georges]

If you mix it yourself, or buy it in a kit where Solution A is mixed in water, the shelf life is 9-12 months in partially full bottles.

If you mix in glycol, or buy one of the Formulary kits mixed in glycol, the shelf life is pretty much indefinite unless the solution is contaminated.

Sandy

Dear Sandy,

When mixing Pyro-HD in Glycol, duos the formula need to be adapted?
BTW, is Glycol the same as Glycocol, Glycerol or Ethyleenglycol?

Thanks,

Philippe

 

[Ian Grant]

There are various forms of "Glycol" which can be confusing but the one it's recommended to use is Propylene Glycol.

Ian

 

[gainer]

Glycerol can be used, but is considerably more viscous than propylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is poisonous to dogs who love it and to people who don't.

 

[sanking]

No adaption of the formula is necessary when mixing Pyrocat-HD in glycol. However, getting the chemicals dissolved has to be carried out differently than when mixing in water. Briefly.

Heat the glycol in a water bath to around 150F, then dissolve the pyrocatechin, followed by the phenidone. Mix the bromide and metabisulfite separately in very hot water, stir until dissolved, then add to the glycol. If there is a liter of total solution, use no more than about 50ml to mix the bromide an metabisulfite.

You could mix in glycerine, but as Pat notes, this makes for a very viscous solution. Best to just bite the bullet and buy propylene glycol -- it is relatively inexpensive and goes a long way. As I recall it costs about $20 a gallon.

Sandy King

Dear Sandy,

When mixing Pyro-HD in Glycol, duos the formula need to be adapted?
BTW, is Glycol the same as Glycocol, Glycerol or Ethyleenglycol?

Thanks,

Philippe

 

[gainer]

I think a modicum of ascorbic acid could be used in place of the metabisulfite in Pyrocat HD. I have done so but can't remember the results. As a matter of fact, I never made any of the original Pyrocat HD. Anyway, ascorbic acid is soluble in propylene glycol. The bromide could be added to the B solution or as a separate solution. I seldom use any.

 

[Ian Grant]

Mix the bromide and metabisulfite separately in very hot water, stir until dissolved, then add to the glycol. If there is a liter of total solution, use no more than about 50ml to mix the bromide an metabisulfite.

Sandy King

Metabisulphite shouldn't be mixed in hot water, it's quite readily soluble as is the bromide. Hot water will liberate SO2 and start to break the metabisulpite to sulpites etc. It should be warmed gently.

Ian

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Re: OP - you can use Pyro developers with 35mm. I've had good success with both Ilford FP4+ and Kodak Tri-X. Especially the FP4 negatives are very very sharp and the grain is also nice (it looks good but is prominent). 12"x16" prints from 35mm FP4+ yields prints that I compare to Tri-X medium format developed in Rodinal grain wise and sharpness in the final print of the same size.

I think Nicholas Lindan has a good point, though - if you have a winner shot it's not going to matter that much what developer you use. I have lately used Rodinal with almost every negative I've made, and absolutely love it. I used to use Pyrocat-MC, and while I have nothing against Pyrocat, I did manage to contaminate a liter set about half way through it. I like single bottle developers better, so I don't have to worry about it. My negs are just as sharp, if not sharper, but I get a little bit more grain if I use normal developing techniques. With semistand development I don't notice much difference in grain, if any.

Rodinal and Neopan Acros is a great combination! Tack sharp negatives with very tight grain. If you're shooting at night, Kodak TMax 400 has almost the same reciprocity characteristics, but you gain two stops in speed. That's significant improvement and to me the ideal night time film.

Anyway, just some suggestions. Good luck!

- Thomas

 

[waynecrider]

Thanks Tom. I'm leaning towards getting some chemicals and mixing up a couple of different devopers, but the Rodinal keeps pulling at me and I guess I'm gonna have to break down and try it.

 

[jim appleyard]

Nicholas has a very good point. Developers are tools, different ways to get an image. After all, the drain plug in my car's oil pan doesn't care whether a hex wrench or a socket set removes it and drains the oil. The main thing is, the oil got changed!

IMHO, devs are like chocolate ice cream, all good, none bad. Which flavor of chocolate do you like?

I like pyro for highlight control and the midtones it gives me. When I want a bit more "oomph" in a neg, I may turn to Rodinal. And then I can always fall back on good ol' D-76, D-23 or Mic-X. They never let me down.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

In general I agree with you, Nicholas, but I thought of a scenario where Pyro can be superior - rotary processing.
I just started using a Beseler rotary processor for my 4x5 and 5x7 work, and using standard developers, I sometimes get negs that I can't compensate enough for when it comes to extreme brightness range. Pyro will help that situation, and could help bring out tones you wouldn't otherwise get.
I know you can do minus development, but that would hold back the entire tonal scale, while an extremely compensating developer, like Pyrocat or RolloPyro would mainly affect your highlights - this can help you in the midtones.

- Thomas

Count me among those who are really underwhelmed by pyro and don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Take two bodies, make identical shots with both bodies and develop one roll in PMK and one roll in Xtol/D-76/Microdol-X/etc. and make your own judgment. You can't make any meaningful comparison by taking a roll, developing it in Developer A and comparing it to a roll taken last month developed in Developer B.

It isn't the developer that makes the picture. The developer, in a sense, can only detract from the picture. If a stunning picture is taken, and happens to be developed in pyro, it isn't the pyro that takes the credit - the picture would be just as stunning if developed in most any other developer.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

I mix-up and use the original Wd2d pyro developer for my 35mm b/w images. I get beautiful grain free results on APX 100 and Tmax 100. The Wd2d developer, as originally published in Peterson Photographic (and available online) was designed for small negatives. Some of the other Pyro developers may be more intended for larger-format work. My negatives print well in the darkroom, and they scan very well also. For my particular work, I found that I had to increase the amounts of stock solution in making up the working solution to get the stain results I wanted.

Here is a link to a 35mm negative scan, of APX-100 developed in Wd2d.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Here is another:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Phototone, it's really hard to believe that those two shots are from 35mm. Very very nice negatives, judging by the scans!
Have you tried using the WD2D with continuous agitation?

- Thomas

 

[michaelbsc]

In general I agree with you, Nicholas, but I thought of a scenario where Pyro can be superior - rotary processing.
I just started using a Beseler rotary processor for my 4x5 and 5x7 work, and using standard developers, I sometimes get negs that I can't compensate enough for when it comes to extreme brightness range. Pyro will help that situation, and could help bring out tones you wouldn't otherwise get.
I know you can do minus development, but that would hold back the entire tonal scale, while an extremely compensating developer, like Pyrocat or RolloPyro would mainly affect your highlights - this can help you in the midtones.

- Thomas

Thomas, you've done this and it works? Or you have thought this through and it should/might work?

I ask because I do all of my processing in a rotary processor, and my undesirable solution is to do stand developing. If this is a good solution, then I'll be happy.

Thanks,
Michael

 

[sanking]

The ABC Pyro that Weston used is an old formula that gives large grain and may not be appropriate for for 35mm and MF. All of the modern pyro formulas, including PMK and Pyrocat as well as WD2D give grain very comparable to D76. These developers should certainly give very fine grain with films like Tmax-100 and Acros, which are fine grain films to begin with and even look good in Rodinal.

Exactly how much grain you will get with a pyro developer depends on the average gradient to which you develop, the amount of general, or B+F stain, that the development produces, and the method of printing (or scanner and method of scanning). I don't use 35mm but with Fuji Acros developed in Pyrocat-HD or -MC, and with a fluid mount scan, I fully expect to be able to print 30X40" prints from MF negatives with virtually no grain.

Sandy King

I mix-up and use the original Wd2d pyro developer for my 35mm b/w images. I get beautiful grain free results on APX 100 and Tmax 100. The Wd2d developer, as originally published in Peterson Photographic (and available online) was designed for small negatives. Some of the other Pyro developers may be more intended for larger-format work. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)