Problems with loading medium format film onto reel

ted_smith · Sep 9, 2018

Hi

I have slowly being practising at loading 120 film onto my steel reel and am gradually getting better. But I am at the stage where there is almost always at least one frame that ends up like this (see attached) and I don't know how to fix my mistake. I'm fairly sure this is due to a kink in the film during loading but try as I might to detect such problems during the loading in the dark bag, I never manage to be sure the whole reel is loaded smoothly.

Is the attached "bleeching" effect caused by that or is it more likely to be something else with my technique? Thanks for any guidance.

mike c · Sep 9, 2018

It's not easy to do, but check to see if the reel is bent, the top reel will be unevenly spaced to the bottom reel which makes it impossible to load with out the film buckling and getting what you have. Once a steel reel is dropped it most likely is bent.

Alan9940 · Sep 9, 2018

I've never loaded wire style reels in a changing bag, so what I say may not help you much. I'm sure your "cupping" the film slightly as you wind onto the reel? If yes, then through practice you'll simply gain a feel for when the film is going on correctly. Also, if you keep your fingers and thumb laying somewhat on the sides of the reel as you thread on the film most times you can feel the film edge "poke out" a bit, if it buckles. Once you have the reel fully loaded, place a finger along the film edge and gently push into the reel; don't over do it, but if the film doesn't move at all, there was some sort of loading issue. When done, hold the reels by fingertips and shake a bit; you should hear the film moving freely (this is the part that may not apply because you might not hear it through the bag.)

guangong · Sep 9, 2018

Many years ago I acquired a curved stainless steel piece that fits in the palm and permits perfect loading every time. Have no idea where to buy one now. Perhaps eBay.

Truzi · Sep 9, 2018

It looks like the film was touching itself somewhere due to a problem loading the reel. It blocks chemicals from reaching the emulsion when this happens.

I've a 120 reel that looks fine, and rolls straight, but must be slightly askew - any film I load in it starts to go off center and kink about half-way through winding.
I do have other reels without the issue, so only use this one when I have a lot of film to develop.

Following advice on this site I no longer use the center clip on that reel. It isn't as difficult as it sounds, once you get the film started, and this seems to have alleviated my problem.

jeffreyg · Sep 9, 2018

I'm not sure of your precise technique but my suggestion is to waste a roll and practice first on a counter top and then with your eyes closed until you have it down and then in your changing bag. Clip the corners of the leading edge on angles, slightly cup the film as mentioned and start it on the reel. Then with the reel in the vertical position on the counter top gently push the film with the hand cupping the film while guiding the reel to rotate inplace with the other hand. The film will pretty well roll on to the reel by itself. That's how I have done it for over forty years. Take your time, it should work without problems.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

Prof_Pixel · Sep 9, 2018

Trying to load a reel in a changing bag makes the job MUCH more difficult!

MattKing · Sep 9, 2018

I find that one of the best sources of feedback when I load steel reels is the sound that the process makes. There is a satisfyingly distinctive sound that the film makes as it rubs against the reel and slides into the proper track. When it doesn't go where it belongs, it makes a different sound.
When you work with a changing bag, you can't easily hear that sound.
With any type of reel - plastic or stainless steel - I find it imperative to move the film slightly back and forth within the channels. If it is being loaded correctly, the film will move easily. If not, it will bind, which tells you that there is a problem.
The advice to the effect that you don't need to use the centre clip may be correct for inversion agitation, but is problematic for rotary agitation.

Kevin Caulfield · Sep 9, 2018

MattKing makes a good point. The sound of the loading process is a great indicator of whether or not it is going smoothly.

Kevin Caulfield · Sep 9, 2018

MattKing makes a good point. The sound of the loading process is a great indicator of whether or not it is going smoothly.

Rudeofus · Sep 10, 2018

The biggest enemy when loading roll film onto a spindle is moisture. The combination of heat and humidity, plus the sweating from being nervous&stressed, amplified by the narrow confines of your changing bag can make it almost impossible to reliably load a film. Moist film sticks like glue and therefore vastly increases the likelihood that your film slips out of the spindle or just gets stuck somewhere in between. It takes more force to move moist/sticky film along the spindle, and at some point your film will rather bend and slip than move forward.

Here are some steps I recommend:

Try to borrow different tank systems from folks around you: JObo, Patersen, stainless steel, whatever. Once you will find that you are more comfortable with some, only then invest into those.
Prevent sweating at all cost. Load film when it is not hot&humid outside, find a cooler room in your flat/house, wait until you are completely calm and relaxed. Practice with a few test rolls until you become comfortable with the process.
Keep a spare spindle ready for use. Despite doing this for 10+ years now, I still run into the occasional situation where film just wouldn't go onto the spindle regardless of what I do, that's when I swap spindles and the loading then typically goes fast&smooth.
Always remember that you can put he film into your tank, and as long as the inner tube is in its correct place and a tank is properly closed, no light will get to your film. This allows you to take the tank out of your changing bag, to dry the changing bag and your hands, and to defer film loading to a more suitable time. Make sure you mark the tank with the film in there lest you open it accidentally.

DWThomas · Sep 10, 2018

Two thoughts:

I normally use a Hewes reel which has a loop of spring wire that clamps the film end. I start the film as best I can and begin to wind, but just before I get far enough around to block access, I reach a finger in and release the spring a moment. If the reel has the film lined up, that allows the clamping point to adjust. I have very few problems.

I've never tried to use a changing bag, but I would think having one that could be propped open inside by some sort of springy rods or a frame of some sort so one wouldn't have the fabric dragging on ones wrists and hands could help in doing things.

Sirius Glass · Sep 10, 2018

The reels must be correct, not skewed.
Clip the corners of the negative.
I leave the tape folded over and start with that end of the roll.
Practice in daylight until you get it right, then practice again in the dark.
The curved film loader in post 4 can really help.
I had the best results by purchasing new Hewes reels. This is worth the investment.

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 10, 2018

I've been loading 120 film on metal reels for over 30 years and sometimes I struggle with it. The main problem is when I clip down the film on the reel the wrong way, it won't load. The trick is to center the film by feel and try to roll the film on straight as possible also by feel. I tried to load film without clipping it down to the reel and sometimes I get lucky. But when I'm not lucky, the film gets loose around the reel.

removed account4 · Sep 10, 2018

hi ted
do you have a roll of film that is uncut that you can roll with your eyes open and the lights on ... to see what is going on ?
some reels you need to not only put the film under the clip and evenly in the middle, but
you have to physically place the first inches of the film in the right place ..
you arc the film and turn and if you can't push the film backwards a little bit in
reel you can tell it is crimped or not loading right .. doing it with your eyes watching
is ez .. then close your eyes with the lights on then with the lights off then with the lights off
and it in the changing bag .. and you have to keep your eyes closed while you do it
or it won't work right ...
sorry to see your film like that, its a drag when all that effort gives you that in return .
good luck !
john

glbeas · Sep 10, 2018

When loading the film I never use the clip as I always get it off center. Pausing and pushing the film in and out a bit every half turn will tell you if its binding. If the film is running true it will stay loose feeling, getting tight means back up and redo it. It takes a touch to get it right and even the loading jigs you can clip on can be tempermental.

Sirius Glass · Sep 10, 2018

When I first clip the film, I feel the outside edges to see if the film is off center in the first few turns. If it is I unwind and adjust the film laterally.

GRHazelton · Sep 10, 2018

I've had reasonable success with 120 film and Paterson reels by unrolling the film completely, then loading the end with the adhesive tape onto the reel. It seems that the added stiffness of the tape helps keep the film properly loaded onto the reels up to and then past the little balls which enable the ratcheting action of the reels. Stainless steel reels? For whatever reason I have enough trouble with loading 35mm film, let alone 120! Funny, back in the day 35mm film and SS reels and I were on the best of terms! I processed 100 feet of Ektachrome with SS with NO problems!

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 10, 2018

Here's another thought. You can also use plastic reels made by Paterson. They make one out of white plastic that's convertible from 35mm to 120 format. I don't use them because they stain after a while and you can load them when they're wet. You load them by inserting the leader of the film on the outer edge then twist the side of the reel to draw the film in towards the center.

guangong · Sep 10, 2018

Just to repeat what I said earlier: years ago bought a stainless steel curved quide for 120 film that fits perfectly into reel and palm of hand. Have never had a problem since about 1970...not once. Box long gone but probably made by Nikor. With this gadget no need to listen for the magic sound, worry about springs, etc.

GRHazelton · Sep 10, 2018

Mainecoonmaniac said:
Here's another thought. You can also use plastic reels made by Paterson. They make one out of white plastic that's convertible from 35mm to 120 format. I don't use them because they stain after a while and you can load them when they're wet. You load them by inserting the leader of the film on the outer edge then twist the side of the reel to draw the film in towards the center.

Ummm....Perhaps you meant that you CAN'T load them when they're wet? As far as stains, I run them through the dishwasher periodically. My Flora is a wonderfully tolerant wife! And I do most of the cooking....

ted_smith · Sep 11, 2018

Thanks everyone for the help and guidance.

To answer a few points - the stainless reel I use is a Hewes reel. I read they were 'best' for medium format but I have struggled as stated originally. This guy makes it look like childs play!!! . For 35mm, I have a plastic reel, and that is so easy. I just feed it in and rotate the wheel - not had a single prblem there. Is there a reel for 120 that has a similar kind of mecahnism to the Patterson 35mm reels?

I like the sound of the sharp pencil idea, and running around the endge of the reel. That sounds very logical and I will try that next time as well.

I have to use a changing bag as I do not have a dark enough room. I did try this time at making my hands cold under running water first, and drying them, which I also found helped.

I guess it's just a learning curve.

GLS · Sep 11, 2018

I have never tried using SS reels as I got used to Patersons. However, I will say that I cannot stress enough how much easier film loading is whilst wearing disposable gloves (at least inside a changing bag, but I imagine it would be a great benefit in the open too). They completely stop perspiration from your hands getting on the film and causing it to bind in the reel. I have not once had the slightest issue since I switched to this method. A box of 100 gloves can be had for a few £/$.

I highly recommend trying it.

ted_smith · Sep 11, 2018

Sounds like a good tip. Makes sense. When you say "disposable gloves", do you mean the traditional rubber type that people often used to do the washing up? Or are we talking more advanced than that? I'm guessing they have to be really thin material, almost skin thick? I imagine using traditional rubber gloves would be too cumbersome to do the fiddly task of loading film?

I am thinking you mean something like this? : https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pack-100-disposable-clear-gloves/dp/B003L78KQ0

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 11, 2018

GRHazelton said:
Ummm....Perhaps you meant that you CAN'T load them when they're wet? As far as stains, I run them through the dishwasher periodically. My Flora is a wonderfully tolerant wife! And I do most of the cooking....

You're right. you CAN'T. The film sticks to the reel when it's wet

But it looks like your wife is as tolerant as my wife. I used her hair dryer to dry my prints and I flooded her bathroom after my tray siphon overflowed.

Problems with loading medium format film onto reel

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Problems with loading medium format film onto reel

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