Printing negatives without turning them to positive

Laci Toth · Jan 26, 2020

Hi everyone,

I’ve actually a lot of negatives which looks great as a negative and I’m thinking about if it’s possible to print what is exactly on the negative without turning it into positive. I’ve never used a scanner nor I own one, which would make the process easy and the other way I’m thinking of is to take a macro photo of the negative itself so I can print it out after I developed that negative but it seems a bit long process and I might loose from details/quality, though I don’t know to be honest. Also the latter might involve a lot of other processes like how to give the negs backlight so it is well prepared and so on. Sorry I’m just thinking loudly.
Is there any way to sort this out?

removed account4 · Jan 26, 2020

hey laci
what you will need to do is make your positive print like you would "normally" and then take that print
and put it face to face on a fresh sheet of photo paper under a sheet of glass and you are going to use THAT as your negative
it will take more exposure than your film negatives but you will get some fun-stuff
you could also get your hands on some ilford direct positive paper and print on that ...or use your macro / micro lens like you said and
make a copy photo of your negative/s...
good luck
john

ic-racer · Jan 26, 2020

Ilford Direct Positive Paper

Laci Toth · Jan 26, 2020

Hey, that was also an option in my mind but I thought that I’d say something really stupid. =D
So, direct positive paper, great! Thanks indeed to both of you!

Laci Toth · Jan 26, 2020

So just to clarify it, I just put the negative in the enlarger and make a print like I usually do but this time on a direct positive paper and will get the result I’d like to get, so the exact photo what is on the negative without turning it into a positive print? So it gives back what it ‘sees’?

removed account4 · Jan 26, 2020

Laci Toth said:
So just to clarify it, I just put the negative in the enlarger and make a print like I usually do but this time on a direct positive paper and will get the result I’d like to get, so the exact photo what is on the negative without turning it into a positive print? So it gives back what it ‘sees’?

yup
but you might have to buy DP paper on ebay cause i am not sure its made anymore ...

Laci Toth · Jan 26, 2020

jnantz said:
yup
but you might have to buy DP paper on ebay cause i am not sure its made anymore ...

On Ilford’s website I found it but it also says the following:
‘In addition, this versatile paper can be used to creative photograms or substituted for standard photo paper when printing from negatives in an enlarger.’
How can it be also a standard photo paper when printing from negatives when it won’t turn the negs into positive? Or am I missing something?

Vaughn · Jan 26, 2020

Substituted for standard photo paper, but not used as standard photo paper. Not standard because it not reverse the tonalities.

Just remember, the more light that hits the paper, the lighter the image will be! Like making color transparencies and like printing Cibachromes (another direct positive process).

Another way would be to contact the negative onto more film for minimal loss of sharpness and infomation, then enlarge the new positive. But really, the paper positive from the negative that is then contacted onto more paper is the simplest route and quickest to experiment with. For example: make the paper positive and once washed, dip you new piece of photo paper into water and squeezee the paper negative and the photopaper together. Then expose under the enlarger. Wet paper can transmit light easier and you get good contact between the two without a contact printing frame or glass. I never tried it with RC, though. RC always had the logos on back.

AgX · Jan 26, 2020

Or make an interpositive on negative film. Either on common one or on fine-grain cine-print film, or on the new sheets from Bergger.

MattKing · Jan 26, 2020

Vaughn said:
RC always had the logos on back.

Ilford RC papers have no backprint - at least on the type that darkroom workers use. I don't know if the roll papers used by photofinishers do.

awty · Jan 26, 2020

I have made a few negative prints by first making a positive and then contact printing to make a negative using ordinary ilford rc paper. Trick is to make the first print at least one grade lower in contrast than what you want the negative print to be and to do all your dodging and burning on the first positive print, for ease.

These are 8x10 prints made to be negatives.

Laci Toth · Jan 26, 2020

Vaughn said:
Substituted for standard photo paper, but not used as standard photo paper. Not standard because it not reverse the tonalities.

Just remember, the more light that hits the paper, the lighter the image will be! Like making color transparencies and like printing Cibachromes (another direct positive process).

Another way would be to contact the negative onto more film for minimal loss of sharpness and infomation, then enlarge the new positive. But really, the paper positive from the negative that is then contacted onto more paper is the simplest route and quickest to experiment with. For example: make the paper positive and once washed, dip you new piece of photo paper into water and squeezee the paper negative and the photopaper together. Then expose under the enlarger. Wet paper can transmit light easier and you get good contact between the two without a contact printing frame or glass. I never tried it with RC, though. RC always had the logos on back.

So I make a print on the positive paper and then take a new paper, wet it and squeeze them together. I assume face to face and the upper one should be the already exposed one but should the new paper be a positive paper also or a paper what we usually use for printing?
Sorry if I’m a bit confused, this is really exciting and would like to understand it thoroughly.

Laci Toth · Jan 26, 2020

awty said:
I have made a few negative prints by first making a positive and then contact printing to make a negative using ordinary ilford rc paper. Trick is to make the first print at least one grade lower in contrast than what you want the negative print to be and to do all your dodging and burning on the first positive print, for ease.

These are 8x10 prints made to be negatives.

View attachment 238915 View attachment 238916

Okay, so the new one should be a normal paper. First I was confused a bit.
The reason why I’m asking all these because I’d like to make lith printing using negative images as the basic and would need to transfer those images to a lith paper.
Your images are very nice, thanks for sharing it!

removed account4 · Jan 26, 2020

hi laci
emulsion to emulsion yes .. its easiest if you make a test strip like you did for the first print. just remember its going to take a lot of light
because paper is thick ...so open your enlarger lens up and put the enlarger head down low to shorten your exposure time.
i've never made lith prints but i am guessing that's going to be a long exposure with a paper negative too. when i make contact prints from paper negatives
on old azo ( i make a xerox print or ink jet print and coat it with parafin to make it translucent ) i use a 300 watt bulb to make my exposures.
no clue how bright your bulb is but it won't be as short as your film negative.
you might also take a look at this website entry on the unblinking eye
https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/EnlargeNeg/enlargeneg.html
enlarged negatives might be worth looking into ...
have fuN!
john

Vaughn · Jan 26, 2020

Laci Toth said:
So I make a print on the positive paper and then take a new paper, wet it and squeeze them together. I assume face to face and the upper one should be the already exposed one but should the new paper be a positive paper also or a paper what we usually use for printing?
Sorry if I’m a bit confused, this is really exciting and would like to understand it thoroughly.

This would be using normal fiber based photo paper if you do not find any direct positive paper. But I see others have jumped in who have more recent experience...mine is decades old! Have fun!

NedL · Jan 26, 2020

Agree with all the advice you already received. In my experience, the squeegee method that Vaughn mentioned works best with fiber-based paper ( when it's wet, it kind of "sticks" the two sheets together, and the limp fiber paper really sticks nicely ). I've never gotten it to work very well with RC paper, and if the paper is wet and you try to put a sheet of glass on top, there will be areas of uneven pressure. I usually let the first, positive print dry first ( doesn't take very long with RC paper, 30 minutes or so ) and then contact print onto dry paper under a sheet of glass.

As awty said, it's good if the first positive ( it's called an "inter-positive" ) is low contrast. Have fun!

Some of us do this to make enlarged paper negatives for use in other kinds of printing. The negatives sometimes do look really neat.

Laci Toth · Jan 27, 2020

Thanks for all the advices! I stick together the pieces of all the infos and give it a go!

koraks · Jan 27, 2020

I've made interpositives on xray film when I wanted the same as your planning to do. Worked marvelously. An rc paper interpositive will likely be just as good though (and perhaps a little easier). I did try contact printing paper negatives (on rc paper) and that worked fine. Just put a piece of glass on top of the sandwich of papers and press down on the sides to maintain good contact. Ordinary float glass is fine.
Good contact between the negative and the print is essential; you'll run into huge sharpness issues otherwise.

Laci Toth · Jan 27, 2020

koraks said:
I've made interpositives on xray film when I wanted the same as your planning to do. Worked marvelously. An rc paper interpositive will likely be just as good though (and perhaps a little easier). I did try contact printing paper negatives (on rc paper) and that worked fine. Just put a piece of glass on top of the sandwich of papers and press down on the sides to maintain good contact. Ordinary float glass is fine.
Good contact between the negative and the print is essential; you'll run into huge sharpness issues otherwise.

Thanks for your thoughts!
So I make a ‘normal’ print and after I developed/stopped/fixed/washed and dried it, I take another paper (not direct positive but the ‘usual’ paper) and I make it wet (or not) and stick the two together, emulsions facing each other and the one is on the top which has already an image and then put a glass on the top to assure that the surface is even and project the light and give it the experiment a go. Do I get it right?

koraks · Jan 27, 2020

Yes, exactly. If you use RC paper for both the intermediate print and the final print, there's no need to wet the paper. Just make the first print, dry it, sandwich with the final paper, expose, develop etc. RC paper stays nice and flat and in good contact with only a little pressure applied.
I never tried the squeegee thing simply because I didn't find it necessary, but I'm sure it can be made to work. However I prefer to keep the part of the darkroom where the enlargers are dry.

Laci Toth · Jan 27, 2020

koraks said:
Yes, exactly. If you use RC paper for both the intermediate print and the final print, there's no need to wet the paper. Just make the first print, dry it, sandwich with the final paper, expose, develop etc. RC paper stays nice and flat and in good contact with only a little pressure applied.
I never tried the squeegee thing simply because I didn't find it necessary, but I'm sure it can be made to work. However I prefer to keep the part of the darkroom where the enlargers are dry.

Alright, I got it then! =)
Thanks indeed, I appreciate it!

argentic · Jan 27, 2020

Hi Laci,

Have you seen this new 2 bath reversal kit ?

It also works with paper so you can simply enlarge your negative at the size you want and get a negative image in print. A kit sells for about $40 here : http://www.brancoottico.fineartlabo...te-reversal-kit-for-film-and-paper-p151327029

Laci Toth · Jan 27, 2020

argentic said:
Hi Laci,

Have you seen this new 2 bath reversal kit ?

It also works with paper so you can simply enlarge your negative at the size you want and get a negative image in print. A kit sells for about $40 here : http://www.brancoottico.fineartlabo...te-reversal-kit-for-film-and-paper-p151327029

Hey, thanks, it’s good to know, very useful, really. I save this as an opportunity.
I might try the contact print first.
As I’m interested in lith printing as well I again would have to involve even more chemicals if I choose this merhod as well which I might don’t want at the moment. If I make a positive print and it’s all fine I can keep it and scribble down the details so I could make another one next time or if I need another one for the lith as well. If I need that print as a negative print I can make a contact print (a piece of paper and a glass) and there I go. But if I involve these chemicals I need more trays or on that very day I only could develop negative prints. If I make a mistake then I’ve to make another positive print which I can turn into negative but if I don’t have enough trays then I’ve to pour out everything into their buckets or wherever and pour in the ‘normal’ developer chems again.
I also would like to make negative prints and then put them in the lith developer, so again if I use these chemicals and not the contact print technique then I’d need extra trays and there’s the chance of a mistake so I’ve to go over again the process.
Though I think this is awesome and I love the results it can produce.

Thanks again for sharing it!

awty · Jan 27, 2020

NedL said:
As awty said, it's good if the first positive ( it's called an "inter-positive" ) is low contrast. Have fun!

Some of us do this to make enlarged paper negatives for use in other kinds of printing. The negatives sometimes do look really neat.

Love it when you talk technical Ned.
Lith sounds great, other things you can do is to ink out parts to look like theres a light on, on "inter-positive" also lay over textured transparent paper to add some texture to the picture and other fun things.

Laci Toth · Jan 28, 2020

awty said:
Love it when you talk technical Ned.
Lith sounds great, other things you can do is to ink out parts to look like theres a light on, on "inter-positive" also lay over textured transparent paper to add some texture to the picture and other fun things.

Yea, this sounds really like fun. I like to layer negatives anyway so it’s again another option. I also use Washi W films among others to get some extra texture.
How to ‘ink out parts’ by the way?

Printing negatives without turning them to positive

Laci Toth

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Printing negatives without turning them to positive

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