Price increasement/discontinuations of films!

mshchem · May 14, 2019

jawarden said:
OT: I'll store film in the freezer that is already running for my food for exactly this reason. Pros might not have a choice in the matter but for amateurs like myself it's more efficient and eco friendly to buy in smaller quantities as needed. Well it makes sense to me anyway. I might have fifty rolls at a time in the freezer and that's about my limit.

Well I used to work in the appliance industry so when you get the stuff for free you have to be careful you don't go nuts. It's not uncommon for people here in the Midwest where houses are cheap to have a huge refrigerator in the kitchen and a fridge in the basement and a beer fridge in the garage.

Huss · May 14, 2019

faberryman said:
You have your choice of a Leica MP or a Nikon F6.

Leica also offers the M-A, which I prefer to the MP as it has nicer frame lines in the VF.

faberryman · May 14, 2019

Huss said:
Leica also offers the M-A, which I prefer to the MP as it has nicer frame lines in the VF.

I didn't realize they were still offering the M-A.

Agulliver · May 15, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
I would rather have rolls of film in the freezer than rolls of fat in my body.

I have both

Fin · May 15, 2019

Deleted member 88956 · May 15, 2019

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Ofcourse we do. That´s what the keynote speach was all about. But Fujis price increase is neutral to this because we do not manufacture color films. And as a dealer we make not a penny more. Competition and market economy run at it´s best in the German photo market. It´s qualifying for the first semster´s rehersals in economy class.

This is true if you can expect sales increases which will release economies of scale overcompensating the margin loss.
And the hope for this is exactly the reason why all manufacturers have lowered prices over a decade starting in late 1998.
They could not gain additional shares of the market but "stole" from the competitors.
This kind of competition bankrupted the entire industry. The prices from the zero years were below the manufacturing costs.
Many people are refering to the death of the industry only in respect to the volume reductions.
But we had both: A volume reduction and a price reduction. This combination put us in the ground.
Today prices are a bit higher than in the zero years whilst they have not even reached the niveau of the 80ies or mid 90ies when the markets were functional.
They cover the variable costs but they do not cover R&D, buildings, HR´training, machine write offs, engineering and similar.

If prices are lowered again we return to immediate losses per piece. Even if we could hope for a glorious market resurrection by lowering prices, who shall acording to your logic, cover these losses in the meantime?
Who´s cash do you want to burn for the intermediate?

I understand Fuji and the others fully. It will only go on if it becomes a business again. The party is over.

- Mirko

The question I have is how have much higher silver prices affected film production? Has this had a significant effect on the bottom line?

ADOX Fotoimpex · May 15, 2019

Witold said:
The question I have is how have much higher silver prices affected film production? Has this had a significant effect on the bottom line?

It´s not a single component. Silver is actually the least problem because for silver there is still a more or less functional regular market and so the price cannot exagurate.
The largest problems on the ingredients side in the past 10 year were all those components were a de facto monopoly developed (film cartridges, certain spools, backing paper, stabilizers, paper base/film base, sensitizers, gelatins) or those which vanished completely and have to be replaced by either a small in house production (always costly) or by something else (usually way mor expensive). These ingredients went up in price between three and ten times (10x the old price!).

- Mirko

AgX · May 15, 2019

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
It´s not a single component. Silver is actually the least problem because for silver there is still a more or less functional regular market and so the price cannot exagurate.

Though it had been different in the past. The silver crisis of 1980, caused by two speculators, brought even huge Agfa-Gevaert to the verge of collapsing and to a change of ownership as remedy.
Competitors will have suffered similarily, but in contrast never talked about it....

wahiba · May 15, 2019

Film is only part of it. Who is making the new cameras.

My Rollie II was put out to grass last week. It was made around 1937/8. I bought it in 1966 so have owned it 50 years of not continual use. It seems to me that the average decent mechanical camera will therefore last with average amateur usage around 40 to 70 years. It is over 10 years since film cameras in general were made in quantity. I know there are exceptions and of course the one time use market and Lomo types. But if we knock 10 years ff my estimates that means the market might hold much as it is, maybe a steady decline for around 30 years and then in the next 30 odd steadily decline...not to oblivion but maybe one or two makers of specialist films and odd ball simple cameras. Interestingly economic batch quantities in manufacturing have been falling.

In some ways those of us brought up with analogue photography are having a golden era. Good cameras at reasonable prices. A wide film choice, especially black and white. OK scanning has replaced the enlarger, I can live with that. Enlarging and print processing was a real chore for an amateur. Film processing just requires a dark bag and a kitchen sink.

Really though it is a case of use it, or lose it.

Ste_S · May 20, 2019

wahiba said:
It seems to me that the average decent mechanical camera will therefore last with average amateur usage around 40 to 70 years.

Longer with regular servicing, no ? Get the feeling some of the simple mechanical viewfinder cameras will almost last 'forever' with servicing.

I take your point though. Cameras are dying that can no longer be serviced and the used market is shrinking. They're also more expensive - gone are the days you'd find film cameras piled up in thrift stores/charity shops.
Lomography service the bottom end of the new market, Leia and Nikon the top end. We need something in the middle.

I would hope someone like Fuji is keeping tags on the rising prices for 35mm premium compacts with an eye to re-introducing something like the Klasse.

Agulliver · May 20, 2019

I have a Kodak Brownie that is over 100 years old...still going because there's almost nothing to go wrong with it.

I also have a 1937 Zeiss-Ikon 520/16 folding 6x6....never been repaired, never been serviced....works like the day it left the factory. It was my dad's before mine, so I know it's been in use at least since around 1968 when he bought it. The Ensign Greyhound I was given last Christmas may fail to fire it's shutter once very 30 or so tries....but it's otherwise as good as it was in 1930......Those less sophisticated cameras often last lifetimes.

Our friend from Adox is 100% correct. A few of the chemicals/ingredients required for film manufacture may have no uses outside of the photo industry. When that industry almost collapsed, demand for those substances to be manufactured collapsed with it. If Kodak, Fuji, Ferrania, Adox, Foma, Ilford et al require these....they either manufacture in-house (expensive to start and to continue) or they must find another suitable alternative...which will probably be more expensive than the original substance....and may necessitate a slight change in the recipes for films (papers, developers, fixers etc). It's the same in in the world of magnetic tape. Demand has risen and professional open reel tape is now quite well catered for because it's actually not too difficult to make....but the special brews which brought us type II and type IV cassette tape....nobody makes them...and they have no uses in any other industry.

If Fuji raising prices keeps our Velvia and Superia in production, then so be it. We're disappointed....but not as disappointed as we'd be if they disappeared altogether.

Deleted member 88956 · May 21, 2019

I believe the film industry is not doing nearly enough (actually next to nothing) to promote film photography in places were demand could get kick started again. It's good that popularity of shooting on film is rising, but had the industry actually put their feet into schools in a serious way, or start bloody advertising on a larger scale, or push for film cameras to find more pronounced presence in films / on stage etc, it might be a game changer. Film shooting is mostly a curiosity for the young, supported by old grumpy people, some of whom continue to berate digital as if it were some sort of plague, and that means unpredictability of long term demand projections, which kills off any serious investments for expansion.

The key is to build on the coexistence of analog / digital. It may seem as the two are finally, albeit slowly, converging on a larger scale (which IMHO they should), we are talking the scale that affects film production and prices, so perhaps there is something we, but especially the industry, could do to make it finally go where nobody just few years ago even thought it could go.
***
For those who appreciate old school photography, here is a link to on-line archives of Wojciech Plewinski, an iconic Polish photographer, who is 91 today and still kicking. One who should have been part of Magnum at the very least. Sadly mostly known only in his home country. The link takes you to Italy '57 series, that I had a chance to see in an exhibit and meet the man in person (which of course beats any digital viewing). Without doubt there are more hidden treasures like this most of us have never heard of, yet all of us would benefit from knowing. And film industry would also be so much better for it.

Tom Kershaw · May 21, 2019

Witold,

You have some good points. On the marketing though, it may be difficult to judge the audience correctly. ILFORD needs to appeal to people buying a few rolls of HP5 for a Holga or a few boxes of GALERIE, which sometimes may be the same people or at others rather different.

Tom

Deleted member 88956 · May 21, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
Witold,

You have some good points. On the marketing though, it may be difficult to judge the audience correctly. ILFORD needs to appeal to people buying a few rolls of HP5 for a Holga or a few boxes of GALERIE, which sometimes may be the same people or at others rather different.

Tom

Marketing judgment is always a challenge, but exposure of product's name/existence is key to its eventual success or demise. This is becoming increasingly difficult in times where immediate profit counts irrespective of long term sustainability, and the challenge is to convince whoever holds the money, that there is money to be made, but not with a bucket drop of public exposure. I was just complemented yesterday by a man in his forties who spotted me shooting film camera on the streets, which only proves we are far behind the curve of telling the world film isn't over. Perhaps film manufacturers should call Daniel Wellington (watches) and ask for advice how to successfully put out a product to newer generation. Or Holga for that matter which is substantially responsible for holding film demand afloat, especially in film's thinnest cycle a few years back.

Deleted member 88956 · May 21, 2019

And if we could think of major rise in film shooting, just think of what could happen to making newer / cheaper and better scanners? There is a market to be explored and expanded into, somebody just needs to stop drinking.

Tom Kershaw · May 21, 2019

The film scanning issue is probably something to address. As you're aware a few people are continuing restore and run drum scanners that need fairly vintage computers to run them, and then there are the Flextight units and the Nikon Coolscan machines but some of these options are at the more premium end to varying extents. My personal preference is for darkroom wet printing but that is more applicable to monochrome work when considering current product availability.

Deleted member 88956 · May 21, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
The film scanning issue is probably something to address. As you're aware a few people are continuing restore and run drum scanners that need fairly vintage computers to run them, and then there are the Flextight units and the Nikon Coolscan machines but some of these options are at the more premium end to varying extents. My personal preference is for darkroom wet printing but that is more applicable to monochrome work when considering current product availability.

Scanners need to get into production anew, not just renewed, refurbished etc. as is the case now. If film users raised to much higher levels (judged by film market expansion alone) there would be market to invest into on the scanning side as well. It is disheartening to see essentially zero development in scanners, and technology has advanced so much, unreal scanning qualities to large audiences would be possible at reasonable costs. A Nikon 9000 calling 3+ grand today is just ridiculous.

Agree on the wet darkroom, which would also be better supported if film floods the market again. Just the times are such that one can hardly get away from digital side of things, if for nothing else, the convenience of submissions and presentations.

Agulliver · May 22, 2019

The biggest downside to my Epson V-something is the speed. It's scan quality is excellent and there's plenty of software out there both free and premium with which to tweak the images. I do like to print in a proper wet dark room but rarely get the opportunity (time) so I do scan. I had one of those hand held "scanners" which in reality takes a snapshot of the negative against a backlight and it was fast but in no way comparable to a flatbed.

Deleted member 88956 · May 22, 2019

Agulliver said:
The biggest downside to my Epson V-something is the speed. It's scan quality is excellent and there's plenty of software out there both free and premium with which to tweak the images. I do like to print in a proper wet dark room but rarely get the opportunity (time) so I do scan. I had one of those hand held "scanners" which in reality takes a snapshot of the negative against a backlight and it was fast but in no way comparable to a flatbed.

Which does not change the fact there has been zero investment in improving scanning in about a decade. Nikon 9000 will eventually die its own death. Shame on Nikon they don't even have the balls to resupply market with spares for them, but when a bean counter is in charge, this is what happens.

Henning Serger · May 23, 2019

wahiba said:
Film is only part of it. Who is making the new cameras.

The camera manufacturers .
But probably yet in the long term. Because in the short term we simply have much more than enough film cameras on the market. From 2000 to 2007 alone more than 80 million (!) film cameras have been sold. Mostly 35mm compact cameras, but also more than 11 million SLRs.
And then there are additionally dozens of millions of working film cameras from the decades before. And there are positive developments in the current camera repair business, too: More young technicians are entering it. And technicians with electronic repair knowledge are entering it. There is a good chance that we'll have a strong camera repair 'industry' in the future.
Therefore there is no danger that we are "running dry" with cameras in the next years. But currently are still so much extremely cheap good cameras on the used market, that it is still not attractive enough for camera manufacturers to enter the market with new models (except Leica with their M-A). The prices for used cameras will have to further rise.

But as the market for digital cameras is collapsing, and will continue to collapse in the next years (the Canon CEO expects the market to shrink by another 50%), there will be a point when the camera manufacturers will have a look at new product niches. And one will be film cameras. Don't forget: Fujifilm sold 10 million instax cameras in their last fiscal year. Much higher sales volume than digital compact cameras, DSLRs and DSLMs!
One of the most famous camera manufacturers will organise "analogue days" for film photography this year. I know for sure because they have asked some film companies and me to do some lectures and workshops there. We said yes .
The film revival is gaining strength .

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · May 23, 2019

Witold said:
I believe the film industry is not doing nearly enough (actually next to nothing) to promote film photography in places were demand could get kick started again.

Agulliver · May 23, 2019

Film manufacturers will indeed be using social media, and not TV, print or billboard ads. That's where the younger people who might respond to ads are.

Though I do maintain that a lot of older people would buy film if they knew how easily it was available.

Deleted member 88956 · May 23, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Well, they are at least doing much much more, and much better compared to the past. But lot's of photrio members are living in their own "forum bubble" and don't realize that ;-).
Film manufacturers are active there with their marketing where the young film shooters are: On social media: instagram, facebook, youtube. And they are quite successful there.
Just have a look (only some examples, there are much much more activities):
https://www.instagram.com/kodak/
https://www.instagram.com/kodakprofessional/
https://www.instagram.com/polaroidoriginals/
https://www.instagram.com/fujifilm_profilm/
htts://www.ishootfujifilm.com/
https://www.instagram.com/ilfordphoto/
https://www.youtube.com/user/HarmanTL/videos
https://www.instagram.com/ADOXPHOTO/
https://www.facebook.com/ADOXPHOTO/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8Zsxol-GDvzJM2I7cpthVg/videos
https://www.facebook.com/FOTOIMPEX/
https://www.instagram.com/fotoimpex/
https://www.instagram.com/filmferrania/
https://www.facebook.com/filmferrania
https://www.facebook.com/fomacz/

Best regards,
Henning

You must be joking. You seem to think of yourself as one who does know what the industry is doing. The ONLY company that has actually done anything to promote and support film shooting is Holga. On social media only those who choose to look will find it, had they had it shown "against their will" like in schools with sponsored programs, then they would indeed see it. It is a hard task to convince a youngster these days to listen in about some crappy process of shooting on film when instant gratification process is the norm.

We need to get the young into galleries so they can SEE what a photograph looks like, one made on film. None of this is remotely possible through social media.

I mentioned a super successful watch maker in my earlier post, that's how you get people to buy what you have for sale. You pay celebrities to use what you make, you have them talk about it wherever and whenever. Yes social media can be successfully used for promotion, just not by posting near silent sites, almost static in their existence that few of potential more serious interest ever find them. Even if the so-called likes are in the thousands or hundreds of thousands, it is a deceiving record of largely non-interest, just a count of those able to click on a like, a proof of loads of inconsequential almost-interests (who immediately after liked twice as much pure digital).

When a business requires scale to bring down prices and investment commitment in a long term supply chain, you need real value in market demand projections. Social media does not do that, it may bring in some greedy "investors" for a while, who will leave as soon as projections turn out bogus. These days instant return on investment is the only thing that keeps money around. Good luck planning film production with all its complexity on social media so-called exposure.

Film is a niche product these days, irrespective of somewhat rising sales. Those who shoot film can be happy abut it, but this is no guarantee of sustained production for decades to come, and this is what we would all be happy to see, but demographics require the younger to take on deliveries in much larger quantities and they are not doing that.

darkosaric · May 23, 2019

Film is a niche product/hobby, and not so expensive. Almost all other luxury hobbies are more expensive (from other art, drinking, partying, to playing games).
Starbucks venti frappuccino costs >5€, carrot cake is ~4€, with some extra syrup and cream - you are close to 15€, which are 3 Adox CHS 100 films. Film is cheap.

Supporting Adox:
- I buy other (non Adox) films, as well as chemicals and papers from Fotoimpex.
- I buy a lot of papers - we need not only to buy films, we need to by papers (especially when shooting B&W).

Sirius Glass · May 23, 2019

Witold said:
You must be joking. You seem to think of yourself as one who does know what the industry is doing. The ONLY company that has actually done anything to promote and support film shooting is Holga.

Please the thread is about real cameras. Keep it real.

Price increasement/discontinuations of films!

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