Price increasement/discontinuations of films!

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trendland

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Do you feel better to support those companies that deserve it?

What Fuji made at last was like a " joke " for many photographers! = Increasing of film
pricing +30% and to the same time Fuji anounced further discontinuations!

Well to boykott Fuji would result to have no access to Fuji films in the future!

On the other hand - ALL OTHER MANUFACTURERS gave new input to us (the comunity of photographers with affinity to film!) Of course those other manufacturers also increasing prices - but moderately! But they are creating something new (new films) instead to create new discontinuations!
A troubleshooting:wondering:?

with regards

Did Ilford, Kodak, Ferrania and others not made a fine job? They do not deserve ALL our money?:smile:
 

Skeeterfx20

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Film has gone through many changes in my lifetime. Some of my favorites have been gone for many, many years. I just learn to adjust with what is on the market. Replacements sometimes come along and all is good again. Heck I would have never bet on seeing something new from Kodak. Well it happened. Maybe not new but I'll take it.

I love slides and as long as it is available I will pay the price, maybe just maybe I might use less but then again I'll just might just adjust my budget so I don't have to worry.

I was able to survive the many changes with Kodak. I will make it through what ever Fuji does. To me being able to buy the type of film I want is priceless. I would rather be able to buy it then see it disappear.

I think we are in a bubble so to speak. Enough interest to keep it in production. However maybe not enough to keep it all around like I would like.

I can't fault companies that have to make financial decisions to secure their future. To me it is petty or disastrous to pick on companies while they struggle to define their out look on film products. So if no one's buys Fuji filmwhat are you expecting them to do? I think you know the answer.
 

removedacct1

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With the demise of Neopan Acros came the end of my buying Fuji products. I don't care what decisions Fuji makes now, since none of their products are relevant to me. I will give my $$ to Ilford and Bergger and occasionally, Kodak.
 
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Trendland,
we all know that you hate facts. And we all know that you have absolutely no knowledge about the film industry. Your posts are often simply a ridiculous mixture of FUD, myths and often stupid lies (like your recent Provia 'discontinuation' posts).

Fact is that Kodak has increased prices often more in the past than Fujifilm with lots of products: For example Pro 400H is 10% cheaper than Portra 400. All Kodaks sheet films are about 30% more expensive than Fuji's sheet films.
Another fact ist that all manufacturers suffer from too low market prices: See the presentation of ADOX CEO at the Helsinki Photo Fair about that topic. He as a manufacturer is confronted with these problems every day. He knows what he is talking about. Lots of film prices are still lower than 20-30 years ago (with inflation implemented), and that despite the fact that the market crashed by more than 99% from all-time-high to all-time-low. It is just a miracle that we have still so low prices!!
You will see: Kodak will be the next who will increase prices. Their financial situation is 'not the best' (using a diplomatic term). Other manufacturers will follow. We've seen all that in the past. And all that is good, because only by fair prices for the manufacturers a long-term sustainable production with new investments is possible. Period. That are the facts of the current market.

If photographers would really be so stupid to follow your ridiculous Fuji boycott, what would be the result:
Fuji would be forced to stop film production. There would be no more real competition in the color film market. Kodak would have no real, serious color film competitor anymore. A de facto monopol. They would increase prices much higher than with competition! Prices would explode. And then of course you would be the first to complain about too high prices!!

"Did Ilford, Kodak, Ferrania and others not made a fine job? They do not deserve ALL our money?"

Film Ferrania has currently not a single product. And the performance of their P30 Alpha was very dissappointing (I've tested a lot of this film). But Fujifilm is offering six films I really like.They work flawlessly. And Fuji's QC is the best in the market. Fuji's 120 film converting with the Easy-End-Seal and barcode system is second to none.
I have tested Provia 100F and new Ektachrome E100 intensively side-by-side. E100 is a very good film, but not as good as Provia 100F. Provia remains the benchmark for neutral-tone mid-saturation colour reversal films.
And Velvia 50 is a league of its own. I love that film. No one else on the market has something like that. And no one ever will.
Fact is that Fujifilm alone has saved the color reversal film market! Kodak stopped all E6 films in 2012. But Fujifilm instead continued production of films and E6 chemistry. Despite the market trend! Only because of Fujifilm the reversal film market and the whole E6 lab infrastructure has survived! Only because of that Kodak had the chance to re-introduce Ektachrome!!! If Fuji had done the same as Kodak, the whole E6 infrastructure would have been dead today. And we wouldn't have a new Ektachrome either.
Kudos to Fuji for that. They have supported us colour reversal film shooters all the years. I am thankful for that.
 

faberryman

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There is a lot of room for prices to increase. Fujicolor 200 and 400 XTRA are $2.99/roll at B&H.
 
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Disconnekt

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As I see it, a small/slight increase in price is better than a doubling in price for a single roll of 36 roll film e.g. $15 for Delta 100 rather than $7.49
 
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ADOX Fotoimpex

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I would like to support Hennings statements here. We can all be greatfull for Fujis simple existance. I would like to add that we do not particulary like Fuji because of their one sided marketing strategies in Germany which actually cost us money and prevents any good dealer from making a penny on their products. So I have no commercial interest in saying this- but it is true.
My personal theory why they recently discontinued some film is that they have the same problems everyone has and this is the unavailability of skilled engineers and workers. This industry has been consolidating for to long. We were never able to do even the most urgent investments. No one makes money in making film @ current prices. Fuji found a way to make money with Instax and the success they have there is now competing internaly about resources. So we have one branch making profits (Instax) and another one only loosing (film) competing for the same HR´s in house. Guess who get´s the preference?

Seeing Fuji trying to increease the prices for film is a positive news. It means they try to get this part of their business back to balance and profit. Only if this happens it has a future.

Apart from this the topic starter has shown little knowledge about economy and the film market in various other threads. He is questioning my detailed statements from the keynote speach but providing no facts to suport his arguments.

Mirko
 
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trendland

trendland

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There is a lot of room for prices to increase. Fujicolor 200 and 400 XTRA is $2.99/roll at B&H.
Faberryman I am sure you do not intend to desribe Fuji's buisiness plan! But sorry I have to state:
You just mentioned Fuji's full future Film portfolio! And beside you mentioned the reason for that
"two film strategy" ".....there is a lot of room for prices to increase......"

with regards
 
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trendland

trendland

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Trendland,
we all know that you hate facts. And we all know that you have absolutely no knowledge about the film industry. Your posts are often simply a ridiculous mixture of FUD, myths and often stupid lies (like your recent Provia 'discontinuation' posts).

Fact is that Kodak has increased prices often more in the past than Fujifilm with lots of products: For example Pro 400H is 10% cheaper than Portra 400. All Kodaks sheet films are about 30% more expensive than Fuji's sheet films.
Another fact ist that all manufacturers suffer from too low market prices: See the presentation of ADOX CEO at the Helsinki Photo Fair about that topic. He as a manufacturer is confronted with these problems every day. He knows what he is talking about. Lots of film prices are still lower than 20-30 years ago (with inflation implemented), and that despite the fact that the market crashed by more than 99% from all-time-high to all-time-low. It is just a miracle that we have still so low prices!!
You will see: Kodak will be the next who will increase prices. Their financial situation is 'not the best' (using a diplomatic term). Other manufacturers will follow. We've seen all that in the past. And all that is good, because only by fair prices for the manufacturers a long-term sustainable production with new investments is possible. Period. That are the facts of the current market.

If photographers would really be so stupid to follow your ridiculous Fuji boycott, what would be the result:
Fuji would be forced to stop film production. There would be no more real competition in the color film market. Kodak would have no real, serious color film competitor anymore. A de facto monopol. They would increase prices much higher than with competition! Prices would explode. And then of course you would be the first to complain about too high prices!!

"Did Ilford, Kodak, Ferrania and others not made a fine job? They do not deserve ALL our money?"

Film Ferrania has currently not a single product. And the performance of their P30 Alpha was very dissappointing (I've tested a lot of this film). But Fujifilm is offering six films I really like.They work flawlessly. And Fuji's QC is the best in the market. Fuji's 120 film converting with the Easy-End-Seal and barcode system is second to none.
I have tested Provia 100F and new Ektachrome E100 intensively side-by-side. E100 is a very good film, but not as good as Provia 100F. Provia remains the benchmark for neutral-tone mid-saturation colour reversal films.
And Velvia 50 is a league of its own. I love that film. No one else on the market has something like that. And no one ever will.
Fact is that Fujifilm alone has saved the color reversal film market! Kodak stopped all E6 films in 2012. But Fujifilm instead continued production of films and E6 chemistry. Despite the market trend! Only because of Fujifilm the reversal film market and the whole E6 lab infrastructure has survived! Only because of that Kodak had the chance to re-introduce Ektachrome!!! If Fuji had done the same as Kodak, the whole E6 infrastructure would have been dead today. And we wouldn't have a new Ektachrome either.
Kudos to Fuji for that. They have supported us colour reversal film shooters all the years. I am thankful for that.


Henning - with all the respect - but what is the realistic view at Fuji Film?
I have the need to guide your view : Fuji's staff captain gave strictly order to his film devision :
Eject!
But his command was not "Pilot - bail out imediately" !

Can you hear that : "bailout" "bailout" "bailout" in super slow motion Henning?
If not - you should have a further look at Fuji's press releases!

with regards
 
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trendland

trendland

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Seeing Fuji trying to increease the prices for film is a positive news.

Now let's be honest Mirco - to whom is that a positive news? To Mirco from ADOX in Berlin:laugh:?

Why is that such a positive news to you? Have you plans to increase your pricing also:wink:??

with regards:laugh::D!

PS : Your economy is wrong Mirko:cry:......you have to decrease pricing in poor markets !
 

koraks

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My personal theory why they recently discontinued some film is that they have the same problems everyone has and this is the unavailability of skilled engineers and workers.
Possibly, although this most likely has gone hand in hand with the need for (1) product redesign in order to fit available supply of materials and (2) the need to redesign production lines and equipment to allow for a more flexible production system (ie smaller batches). Especially the latter is a catch-22 as accommodating smaller volumes to suit a dramatically shrunken market (regardless of marginal recovery over the pas few years) requires investments that have to preceed marginal profits over the long run - provided they will even materialize. The ROI is likely to be marginal if positive in the first place, and any effort Fuji still puts in the film business is likely as much (if not, more) courtesy to existing users and staff as it is business acumen.
 
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trendland

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Possibly, although this most likely has gone hand in hand with the need for (1) product redesign in order to fit available supply of materials and (2) the need to redesign production lines and equipment to allow for a more flexible production system (ie smaller batches). Especially the latter is a catch-22 as accommodating smaller volumes to suit a dramatically shrunken market (regardless of marginal recovery over the pas few years) requires investments that have to preceed marginal profits over the long run - provided they will even materialize. The ROI is likely to be marginal if positive in the first place, and any effort Fuji still puts in the film business is likely as much (if not, more) courtesy to existing users and staff as it is business acumen.
Koraks I am not sure if most photographers will see price increasement and discontinuation as
a courtesy?
What about the general finiancial potential of Fuji ? It is excellent - right? What about the relation
of investments for film division in concern of Fuji 's earnings last quarter?
It is peanuts - right? What about the budget for marketing and advertising Fuji spent over years
to competite against Agfa (70s) and against EK ( later )?
What about to save sums for advertising films complete (Fuji did)! What about to refinance the money Fuji will need to restructure film business (Why is it not done btw? Kodak finished it)?
From what should come ROI from my point? From cross calulation with high eranings of other
business sparts! So other Fuji devisions should give money for Fuji's film business?

It is against economic rules of "new economy" right? But looking around - what is the result of new economy? A desaster.......:pinch:!

with regards
 

ADOX Fotoimpex

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Have you plans to increase your pricing also:wink:??

Ofcourse we do. That´s what the keynote speach was all about. But Fujis price increase is neutral to this because we do not manufacture color films. And as a dealer we make not a penny more. Competition and market economy run at it´s best in the German photo market. It´s qualifying for the first semster´s rehersals in economy class.

PS : Your economy is wrong Mirko:cry:......you have to decrease pricing in poor markets !

This is true if you can expect sales increases which will release economies of scale overcompensating the margin loss.
And the hope for this is exactly the reason why all manufacturers have lowered prices over a decade starting in late 1998.
They could not gain additional shares of the market but "stole" from the competitors.
This kind of competition bankrupted the entire industry. The prices from the zero years were below the manufacturing costs.
Many people are refering to the death of the industry only in respect to the volume reductions.
But we had both: A volume reduction and a price reduction. This combination put us in the ground.
Today prices are a bit higher than in the zero years whilst they have not even reached the niveau of the 80ies or mid 90ies when the markets were functional.
They cover the variable costs but they do not cover R&D, buildings, HR´training, machine write offs, engineering and similar.

If prices are lowered again we return to immediate losses per piece. Even if we could hope for a glorious market resurrection by lowering prices, who shall acording to your logic, cover these losses in the meantime?
Who´s cash do you want to burn for the intermediate?

I understand Fuji and the others fully. It will only go on if it becomes a business again. The party is over.

- Mirko
 
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trendland

trendland

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If prices are lowered again we return to immediate losses per piece. Even if we could hope for a glorious market resurrection by lowering prices, who shall acording to your logic, cover these losses in the meantime?
Who´s cash do you want to burn for the intermediate?

[/QUOTE]
That's indeed that part of a kind of "prosperial spending" wich has to be payed from you - yes for sure thats my logic!
And I of course have no problem if you have to burn money for the interims to restructure your
business (because it is your business and not mine !)
Perhaps you spent that money from good earnings of the last business years before that crisis!
Or have you made no reserve from that money you've earned?
There is allways RISC capital - in case you have a good plan! BTW - ECB is burning cash,
Trump is burning cash, there is so much money into business - for sure it is real normal
to burn cash - start ups have no other task then to burn cash in most cases !


So that's not the task of Agfa their ship sunk! Same is to Kodak! Same to Ferrania !

But what about Fuji - we are talking about their shareholders - right?

Burn some of their cash Fujifilm instead of whole the cash we payed!

with regards
 
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Henning - with all the respect - but what is the realistic view at Fuji Film?
I have the need to guide your view : Fuji's staff captain gave strictly order to his film devision :
Eject!

And another lie from you. Do you have any evidence for that? No, of course not. Because the Fujifilm CEO has never given this order.

It is indeed exactly the opposite: He said film production is in Fuji's DNA and it is their heritage. Therefore they will continue it. This statement was given at Photokina and just recently also at the WPPI in Las Vegas. It has been confirmed to me also by Fujifilm managers, which have always been very honest to me. They have never lied to me.
But you are telling lies here again and again and again.

And your claim is also proven wrong by other facts: If Fuji really have "pulled the plug" it would not make any sense at all to invest in new products and marketing. That would then be a total waste of capital. But Fuji is doing just that: New product designs, new packagings for C200 and X-Tra 400 in the increasing NA market. And investments in more marketing for film: social media activities, new online portal, workshops, recently a big presentation at WPPI.
No company would do that if they already have made the decision to stop production.
Fujifilm is the only big film manufacturer who was never in insolvency. No other company was so successful during the "digital transition". They would not waste capital on gone products.
Their strategy is quite simple: To concentrate on the profitable photo films. And discontinue the non-profitable ones. This way photo film production can survive. And in some years, when due to the film revival the market is significantly bigger again, re-introduced or new films can hit the market.
A very rational strategy.
Which has been successful in several other technology fields with paradigma changes, too. It's a proven strategy.

Regards,
Henning
 
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PS : Your economy is wrong Mirko:cry:......you have to decrease pricing in poor markets !

No, Mirko's assessment is absolutely right.
He is successfully running two businesses for almost 30 years. He know's the market, you don't at all.
But your ridiculous statements about the economy of the photo film market simply prove that
- you have absolutely no economic knowledge
- you want simply a kind of slavery: The extreemly low prices from 20 years ago, and that all film manufacturers and their employees are working for free for you, without profits just to please your ugly German "Geiz ist geil" mentality. With your latest post you have made your expectation very clear.

Regards,
Henning
 
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trendland

trendland

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No, Mirko's assessment is absolutely right.
He is successfully running two businesses for almost 30 years. He know's the market, you don't at all.
But your ridiculous statements about the economy of the photo film market simply prove that
- you have absolutely no economic knowledge
- you want simply a kind of slavery: The extreemly low prices from 20 years ago, and that all film manufacturers and their employees are working for free for you, without profits just to please your ugly German "Geiz ist geil" mentality. With your latest post you have made your expectation very clear.

Regards,
Henning


Ohhh Henning - hope they told you the true Henning!
But the situation is quite confortable isn't it?
Future will tell - no fear! So lets talk in 4/19 - 1/20 again about this same issue and we first will see what about Fuji E6 - OK?

with regards:wink:
 
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trendland

trendland

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Folks if you are asking - were is your money gone from price increasement this year? The year before from last increasement a.s.o and you remember further discontinuations and you were told : Fuji can not make profits from higher pricing again and again!
Let you not tell in addition it is gone to save your access to Fujifilms in the future:mad:!

But where did your money go now? ? ? ? :

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with regards

 

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StepheKoontz

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Do you feel better to support those companies that deserve it?

What Fuji made at last was like a " joke " for many photographers! = Increasing of film
pricing +30% and to the same time Fuji anounced further discontinuations!

I am fine with them doing whatever they need to do to make their film business viable. I doubt most people shoot enough film where this is going to have a huge impact on their lives and this clearly isn't going to dip into professional photographers ability to survive, the vast majority are shooting digital. I'm happy Fuji is committed to continue producing film, when they could easily drop this market segment and not suffer.
 

koraks

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Koraks I am not sure if most photographers will see price increasement and discontinuation as
a courtesy?
What about the general finiancial potential of Fuji ? It is excellent - right? What about the relation
of investments for film division in concern of Fuji 's earnings last quarter?
Fuji is not a philanthropic institution that exists to dump cash into a dwindling business. Neither is Impex/Adox for that matter, but since film photography is their core business, they don't have much choice but to stick with it. Even then, your proposal of Impex/Adox investing to restructure their business belies little insight into the scope of such investments in relation to the future potential of the market combined with costs of capital and access to this kind of financing. It's just not feasible. Your entire argument relies on a request for an unrealistic sense of idealism that happens to suit your personal interests without making sense from a business viewpoint.
Film prices need to go up for this niche market to become sustainable, which it is not at this moment, it's as simple as that. As a consumer, I don't like it, but given the choice between somewhat more expensive materials and no materials at all, I know what my preferred option would be.
 
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trendland

trendland

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Fuji is not a philanthropic institution that exists to dump cash into a dwindling business. Neither is Impex/Adox for that matter, but since film photography is their core business, they don't have much choice but to stick with it. Even then, your proposal of Impex/Adox investing to restructure their business belies little insight into the scope of such investments in relation to the future potential of the market combined with costs of capital and access to this kind of financing. It's just not feasible. Your entire argument relies on a request for an unrealistic sense of idealism that happens to suit your personal interests without making sense from a business viewpoint.
Film prices need to go up for this niche market to become sustainable, which it is not at this moment, it's as simple as that. As a consumer, I don't like it, but given the choice between somewhat more expensive materials and no materials at all, I know what my preferred option would be.
Your paradigma is wrong because there is no need for increasement of pricing (for the need of
enough earnings of manufacturers)!

There is a market wich will pay priced film! But this same market will not pay more for films!
In parts perhaps - in parts it will smaller the volume of sales and earnings!

So the initiative of Mirko from ADOX is a fine idea but there is no transfer money for destressed
producers of film! Not from the market:sad:!

And it is not my business to have a plan out of their dilemma! But it is indeed their business to solve their problem of inefficiancy! Reducing costs - restructure of production process - what ever!
The market will punish higher pricing with less demand!

Kodak made this job they were forced - in a good manner!:kissing:
 
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trendland

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What part of the market is not going to accept a price increase over $2.99/roll?
From my point Fuji will not bailout of film production in total for the next 10 years! Because
it is no great thing to produce one or two standart c41 films! But from todays pricing Fuji
have much space indeed for increasement above this level! A simple business plan : increasement of pricing whatever it cost!
And thats Fujis 2 film strategy!

with regards
 

koraks

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Your paradigma is wrong because there is no need for increasement of pricing (for the need of
enough earnings of manufacturers)!
Yes, there is. The financial situations of both Kodak and Ilford/Harman illustrate this. Both are kept afloat on the basis of shareholders who accept that there is no return on investment, only because the alternative is to lose their investments altogether. Adox/Impex clearly argues for higher sales prices in order to make the necessary investments possible to keep their business running - not even talking about expansion. While this is not explicitly stated as such, it seems likely that companies like Impex and currently also Ferrania rely to a large extent on the willingness of their employees to invest more time into their work than they are paid for, out of sheer passion for what they do (in the case of Ferrania, this is quite clearly visible, in the case of Impex, it is only implied). Fuji's price hikes and product discontinuations shows that keeping regular film in production, both color and B&W but Instax excluded, is not viable and certainly not attractive. With virtually every major manufacturer struggling to remain in this market, it is quite obvious that the current market prices are not sustainable. There are no slack resources left in this market whatsoever, making every manufacturer extremely vulnerable for inevitable occurrences such as economic downturns, supply interruptions or materials becoming unavailable in the quality currently used.

There is a market wich will pay priced film! But this same market will not pay more for films!
In parts perhaps - in parts it will smaller the volume of sales and earnings!
Interesting how you seem to contradict yourself within the scope of two sentences. I frankly don't have a clue what you mean, but then again, this is true 80% of the time.

And it is not my business to have a plan out of their dilemma! But it is indeed their business to solve their problem of inefficiancy!
Reducing costs - restructure of production process - what ever!
Gee, I wonder why they didn't think of that. You're stepping over the catch-22 remark I made earlier. Let's do it again: redesigning the photographic materials manufacturing business in order to become more agile, geared towards things like much smaller batches (while maintaining acceptable quality levels) and more flexibility in the quality of source materials, requires substantial investments in redesigning both products and production processes. For the big, diversified player (i.e. Fuji), this investment makes no business sense due to the uncertain and most likely marginal outlook of the market. For the smaller, more specialized players (i.e. Impex, Foma, and by extension even Kodak en Harman), access to capital and the costs of capital is not in line with their financial capabilities. You mentioned venture capitalists (I assume that's what you meant by 'RISC investors'), but they are unlikely to step into this business, except if they see some valuable assets that they can sell off in a short period of time, effectively disintegrating the company in question.

One of the more likely ways out of the situation is further consolidation, which we currently see in the situation of Harman, which is trying to make the most of its manufacturing capacity by acting as a toll manufacturer for other brands than Ilford. Indeed, we have already seen a vertical disintegration at both Ilford and Kodak with the market-end splitting off from the manufacturing-end, and this has paved the way for consolidation, specialization and hence further shake-out. It would not surprise me if there will be a development towards two types of manufacturing firms in this market:
1. Relatively large-volume manufacturing of a limited number of stocks for a few major brands, geared towards efficiency and possibly/hopefully fair quality control, but not necessarily very flexible.
2. Smaller specialized firms consisting of only a few people running a more flexible operation, manufacturing specialty materials that may come and go as these businesses fail and succeed, more likely than not with variable product quality, but potentially interesting offerings.
Whatever happens, the current situation with massive overcapacity in relation to current and expected demand will change one way or another. In the process towards that change, further discontinuations of products, price increases and a bankruptcy here and there will most likely be part of the developments.

The market will punish higher pricing with less demand!
I'd like to see your analysis of the price elasticity of photographic film, supported by empirical data and a conceptual model capturing the underlying mechanisms. Lacking this, I remain with the fairly safe assumption that you've glanced briefly at an Economics 101 textbook at some point and now believe you thoroughly understand how specific markets work.

Kodak made this job they were forced - in a good manner!:kissing:
Kodak is struggling. They were 'forced' by bankruptcy into the hands of owners who face losing their investments and therefore pray that their wobbly boat remains afloat. I am not at all convinced that Kodak has managed to restructure their business in the ways necessary to meet the needs of the photographic materials business. In fact, in their communications, they emphasize entirely different markets that they seem to have higher hopes for, suggesting that their commitment to photography is more a matter of necessity than of strategic thinking.

This is the first and the last time I'll take the time to go into one of your ramblings on the photographic market in detail. As someone else said before: it makes no sense to discuss this with you, as your argument is consistently erratic and lacks common (business) sense. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, as am I. So let's agree to disagree, and let's see what the market does in due course. In the end, no one can predict the future.
 

Skeeterfx20

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2018
Messages
59
Location
WESTERN PA
Format
Multi Format
I don't get the point or in fact the beef. Just point less talking for no reason or maybe someone is bored.

So the price of film went up. Big deal.

Some films are being phased out. I still have a dislike of Kodak for dropping Tech Pan, though not enough to toss them under the bus.

If the price of film doubles I would pay it. In fact most people I run with would pay it too. If my treasured E6 would vanish I would adapt. To be honest I thought it would have vanished years ago. Truely amazing it is still around.

So Fuji is making some or selling cosmetics. Pretty smart company. Who am I to tell them what they can or can or do.

Anyways I clearly must be stupid because I can't understand one point of this conversation or even why it was started.

Maybe I should stay out of these threads generally I do a pretty good job at doing so. However this one I just struggle to see what the end game is for th OP.
 
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