Price increasement/discontinuations of films!

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trendland

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Yes, there is. The financial situations of both Kodak and Ilford/Harman illustrate this. Both are kept afloat on the basis of shareholders who accept that there is no return on investment, only because the alternative is to lose their investments altogether. Adox/Impex clearly argues for higher sales prices in order to make the necessary investments possible to keep their business running - not even talking about expansion. While this is not explicitly stated as such, it seems likely that companies like Impex and currently also Ferrania rely to a large extent on the willingness of their employees to invest more time into their work than they are paid for, out of sheer passion for what they do (in the case of Ferrania, this is quite clearly visible, in the case of Impex, it is only implied). Fuji's price hikes and product discontinuations shows that keeping regular film in production, both color and B&W but Instax excluded, is not viable and certainly not attractive. With virtually every major manufacturer struggling to remain in this market, it is quite obvious that the current market prices are not sustainable. There are no slack resources left in this market whatsoever, making every manufacturer extremely vulnerable for inevitable occurrences such as economic downturns, supply interruptions or materials becoming unavailable in the quality currently used.


Interesting how you seem to contradict yourself within the scope of two sentences. I frankly don't have a clue what you mean, but then again, this is true 80% of the time.


Gee, I wonder why they didn't think of that. You're stepping over the catch-22 remark I made earlier. Let's do it again: redesigning the photographic materials manufacturing business in order to become more agile, geared towards things like much smaller batches (while maintaining acceptable quality levels) and more flexibility in the quality of source materials, requires substantial investments in redesigning both products and production processes. For the big, diversified player (i.e. Fuji), this investment makes no business sense due to the uncertain and most likely marginal outlook of the market. For the smaller, more specialized players (i.e. Impex, Foma, and by extension even Kodak en Harman), access to capital and the costs of capital is not in line with their financial capabilities. You mentioned venture capitalists (I assume that's what you meant by 'RISC investors'), but they are unlikely to step into this business, except if they see some valuable assets that they can sell off in a short period of time, effectively disintegrating the company in question.

One of the more likely ways out of the situation is further consolidation, which we currently see in the situation of Harman, which is trying to make the most of its manufacturing capacity by acting as a toll manufacturer for other brands than Ilford. Indeed, we have already seen a vertical disintegration at both Ilford and Kodak with the market-end splitting off from the manufacturing-end, and this has paved the way for consolidation, specialization and hence further shake-out. It would not surprise me if there will be a development towards two types of manufacturing firms in this market:
1. Relatively large-volume manufacturing of a limited number of stocks for a few major brands, geared towards efficiency and possibly/hopefully fair quality control, but not necessarily very flexible.
2. Smaller specialized firms consisting of only a few people running a more flexible operation, manufacturing specialty materials that may come and go as these businesses fail and succeed, more likely than not with variable product quality, but potentially interesting offerings.
Whatever happens, the current situation with massive overcapacity in relation to current and expected demand will change one way or another. In the process towards that change, further discontinuations of products, price increases and a bankruptcy here and there will most likely be part of the developments.


I'd like to see your analysis of the price elasticity of photographic film, supported by empirical data and a conceptual model capturing the underlying mechanisms. Lacking this, I remain with the fairly safe assumption that you've glanced briefly at an Economics 101 textbook at some point and now believe you thoroughly understand how specific markets work.


Kodak is struggling. They were 'forced' by bankruptcy into the hands of owners who face losing their investments and therefore pray that their wobbly boat remains afloat. I am not at all convinced that Kodak has managed to restructure their business in the ways necessary to meet the needs of the photographic materials business. In fact, in their communications, they emphasize entirely different markets that they seem to have higher hopes for, suggesting that their commitment to photography is more a matter of necessity than of strategic thinking.

This is the first and the last time I'll take the time to go into one of your ramblings on the photographic market in detail. As someone else said before: it makes no sense to discuss this with you, as your argument is consistently erratic and lacks common (business) sense. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, as am I. So let's agree to disagree, and let's see what the market does in due course. In the end, no one can predict the future.

Yes Koraks "catch22" is a good point - I am not sure about if we both have the same understanding of it?
To me "catch 22" is a mechanism a manufacturer can compensate losses from inncreasing costs of production via price increasement for the short term. From the longer term price increasement is in concern of market acceptance.
So it is without benefit for a manufacturer in most cases (because no product should be priced below market acceptance = dumping in case of pricing below own costs!)!
It is allways below benefit because a paradoxum (catch 22) will increase the volume of sales caused from higher pricing! So a manufacturer feel to be forced to increase pricing but as a result
the earnings comes smaler in total!
That's what I call a "self-reinforcing mechanism" and that is beside digital photography the reason
of the decline of a whole industry:sad:!
It is acting like a deadly poison! Therefore my wonder about why Mirko from ADOX is going to establish that same poison of destruction as new medicine?

with regards
 
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trendland

trendland

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ähmm sorry koraks : it will DECREASE the volume of sales caused from higher pricing (allways)

with regards
 

ADOX Fotoimpex

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That's indeed that part of a kind of "prosperial spending" wich has to be payed from you - yes for sure thats my logic!
And I of course have no problem if you have to burn money for the interims to restructure your
business (because it is your business and not mine !)
Or have you made no reserve from that money you've earned?
There is allways RISC capital - in case you have a good plan! BTW - ECB is burning cash,
Trump is burning cash, there is so much money into business - for sure it is real normal
to burn cash - start ups have no other task then to burn cash in most cases !

There is no need to restructure our business. We only started after the collaps of the industry and are already scaled to the right size.
This is also the reason why spendings on revenue increases (buying market shares) is surely not something we would do.
If there are funds left we invest them into new products, modernisations yielding further cost reductions or gaining additional capabilities.
Needless to say that we do not have earnings piled up from 20 years ago. If a company makes good profits they distribute them again to their employes (via wage increases), investments, governmental taxes and the remaining rest to it´s shareholders. No one stock piles money for 20 years. There´s not much point in it.

- Mirko
 

ADOX Fotoimpex

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I'd like to see your analysis of the price elasticity of photographic film, supported by empirical data and a conceptual model capturing the underlying mechanisms. Lacking this, I remain with the fairly safe assumption that you've glanced briefly at an Economics 101 textbook at some point and now believe you thoroughly understand how specific markets work.
+1
 

Paul Howell

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Fuji manged what Kodak didn't, a diverse range of products. Kodak and Fuji are pro profit companies, they only exist to make a profit. In terms of dropping specific films. Both have something in common, scale of operations. Their plants are so large they need to make very large production runs of any film or paper. Foma, Ilford, and Ferrina have much smaller plants meaning they can make a profit with much smaller runs. In the 90s I visited the Kodak plant in Denver, huge. I think Ferrina is using a test coating line, not even the coating line it used when producing film. Sometimes I am puzzled by decisions, like why did Kodak stop cutting color paper or packaged sale while Fuji was able to figure out a way to keeping selling packaged color paper. I'm not sure if Fuji still sells black and white paper, was under the impression that some paper was still on the market in Japan. That fact that there are so many emulsions on the market is quite impressive. Too bad no one is making a new line of 35mm cameras.
 

Tom Kershaw

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I fully support sustainable prices for film from the manufacturers. However some Kodak products, at least in the UK, have become disproportionately expensive compared to the rest of the market; they also make strange decisions like packaging 5"x4" film in 10 sheet boxes.
 

mshchem

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I hope Fuji keeps making what they are making. Every film company face increased costs that must be passed on to consumers or it's over. The loss of Acros is not worth getting worked up over. There's plenty of other choices, and smaller companies can fill this niche very well. Losing Fujichrome and Fuji color negative offerings would leave one building on earth capable of producing similar products. Not quite because Kodak doesn't produce Ektachrome in 120 or sheets and unlike Fujifilm failed to adapt to the new normal. So God save Fujifilm.

People need to quit bitching about the companies that still have the passion to serve this market.

Best Regards Mike
 

mshchem

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I fully support sustainable prices for film from the manufacturers. However some Kodak products, at least in the UK, have become disproportionately expensive compared to the rest of the market; they also make strange decisions like packaging 5"x4" film in 10 sheet boxes.
10 sheet boxes are nuts. Kodak Alaris apparently pays some 3rd party to convert sheets, no color negative paper in sheets either.
 

Agulliver

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Something like 15 year ago, Kodak axed a product I was using. It was a powder developer, and now I forget what it was.....but I was mad, angry....like every sad keyboard warrior I ranted about never using any Kodak products again. I was silly....I found another suitable product from Ilford and continued using various other Kodak products including colour film and Photoflo.

Getting mad at Fuji because they've had to raise prices won't help. Boycotting Fuji film will simply result in them actually having to cut production. If they're raising prices it's probably because they're trying to bring the photographic film part of their business into profit. I disagree that profit is the sole purpose of a business....the mission of a private business is to survive....it is highly likely that rationalising the portfolio of films available and raising prices is part of the strategy to keep film production going at Fuji.

In the end, while price rises and product discontinuations are disappointing....I'd far rather be able to shoot film in 20 years time rather than look back and say "Oh didn't we do well boycotting the film manufacturers....but I sure wish my freezer stash hadn't run out in 2027....."
 

Lachlan Young

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10 sheet boxes are nuts. Kodak Alaris apparently pays some 3rd party to convert sheets, no color negative paper in sheets either.

Film & paper products are coated & finished in different plants - sheet film conversion is done in Rochester by Kodak as far as I know. The end of sheet paper products may have happened because whoever was doing the converting & packing in Harrow retired/ left & at the time it was felt the demand was insufficient to pay/ train someone to do it. Alaris have said that if sufficient demand can be shown, they will look at seeing if packaging paper in sheet form is viable.

The 10 sheet boxes have been standard for C-41 for a while, & Kodak discovered that consumers wanted smaller packaging quantities of the BW films than the 50 sheet boxes (less of an up front financial hit probably) & used the 10 sheet boxes they already had. That consumers may have wanted 25's like Ilford offers has to be balanced against what is economically achievable without adding too many extra stock items...
 

Ste_S

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I would like to support Hennings statements here. We can all be greatfull for Fujis simple existance. I would like to add that we do not particulary like Fuji because of their one sided marketing strategies in Germany which actually cost us money and prevents any good dealer from making a penny on their products. So I have no commercial interest in saying this- but it is true.
My personal theory why they recently discontinued some film is that they have the same problems everyone has and this is the unavailability of skilled engineers and workers. This industry has been consolidating for to long. We were never able to do even the most urgent investments. No one makes money in making film @ current prices. Fuji found a way to make money with Instax and the success they have there is now competing internaly about resources. So we have one branch making profits (Instax) and another one only loosing (film) competing for the same HR´s in house. Guess who get´s the preference?

Seeing Fuji trying to increease the prices for film is a positive news. It means they try to get this part of their business back to balance and profit. Only if this happens it has a future.

Apart from this the topic starter has shown little knowledge about economy and the film market in various other threads. He is questioning my detailed statements from the keynote speach but providing no facts to suport his arguments.

Mirko

I understand the need to raise prices to keep film production sustainable in the long run.
However, with increased prices means I (and I suspect others) have to re-consider how much they shoot on film vs digital. I've been scaling back a lot recently to 1-2 rolls of 120 a week vs 4+ previously. For me I can't afford to shoot at that volume anymore.

All I'm trying to say is I hope a happy medium is found on price - where the price is enough to keep film production sustainable whilst also keeping film shooting viable for the majority.
 

Agulliver

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Some of us do have to scale back, or buy film right after pay day.....it's why I've moved to bulk rolling almost all my B&W film and keeping a stash of C41 and speciality B&W films....I buy when the money is there and use months or even a couple of years later when the need/desire arises.

Sure, if I could still get Fortepan for a quid per 120 roll I'd be shooting it almost daily. When I returned to film in 2013/14 after a few years absence, I was quite shocked at how comparatively few stocks remained on the market but after a little reading I realised that I could still buy film for all occasions...just often fewer choices in a given segment of the market. Given how film sales have collapsed we're still well catered for and should we wish to be able to purchase Fuji film in 10 years time we need to support them by buying it now too.
 

StepheKoontz

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The reality of future film production is probably going to require reducing the options available to allow for larger runs, which provides the economy of scale both the buyers and sellers need. I personally would be fine with one 100 speed E-6 choice, 1 each of 100, 400, 800 color neg film and 100, 400 B&W in T grain and standard "old school" grain. I hope they continue to make 35mm, 120 and 4X5 sheets. Anything outside of this would be considered specialty and priced accordingly. Yes, I remember when there were dozens different types of color neg film to choose from, all sorts of E-6 films etc, those days are gone and we have to accept that. As far as fuji dropping acros, I never used it and there are plenty of other options to choose from in that segment.
 
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I like and use Velvia 50 in 120 format. I'm willing to pay the increase as it's a product I really like. I'm curious what the actual price difference is compared based on inflation compared to pricing let's say in in the 1980's?
 

mshchem

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Film & paper products are coated & finished in different plants - sheet film conversion is done in Rochester by Kodak as far as I know. The end of sheet paper products may have happened because whoever was doing the converting & packing in Harrow retired/ left & at the time it was felt the demand was insufficient to pay/ train someone to do it. Alaris have said that if sufficient demand can be shown, they will look at seeing if packaging paper in sheet form is viable.

The 10 sheet boxes have been standard for C-41 for a while, & Kodak discovered that consumers wanted smaller packaging quantities of the BW films than the 50 sheet boxes (less of an up front financial hit probably) & used the 10 sheet boxes they already had. That consumers may have wanted 25's like Ilford offers has to be balanced against what is economically achievable without adding too many extra stock items...
Black and white 4x5 is available in 50 sheet boxes. I'm still using up 100 sheet boxes of TMY. Kodak makes amazing film, but so does Ilford, which in sheets is much less expensive and works well. I love TMY in 120 that's my go to film. I have a doomsday stash of Acros that's been frozen since new, about 3 years old, I got it before the announcement. That's another.
I'm waiting to see what happens to Alaris. Hopefully it won't go to a Russian Oligarch or Jeff Bezos. :smile:
 

mshchem

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Something like 15 year ago, Kodak axed a product I was using. It was a powder developer, and now I forget what it was.....but I was mad, angry....like every sad keyboard warrior I ranted about never using any Kodak products again. I was silly....I found another suitable product from Ilford and continued using various other Kodak products including colour film and Photoflo.

Getting mad at Fuji because they've had to raise prices won't help. Boycotting Fuji film will simply result in them actually having to cut production. If they're raising prices it's probably because they're trying to bring the photographic film part of their business into profit. I disagree that profit is the sole purpose of a business....the mission of a private business is to survive....it is highly likely that rationalising the portfolio of films available and raising prices is part of the strategy to keep film production going at Fuji.

In the end, while price rises and product discontinuations are disappointing....I'd far rather be able to shoot film in 20 years time rather than look back and say "Oh didn't we do well boycotting the film manufacturers....but I sure wish my freezer stash hadn't run out in 2027....."
The biggest competition for all these guys are refrigerators. My earliest film is some 5x7 expry. 1983 :laugh:. It's no good but it's a old friend. I try to buy yearly during cold weather.

So speaking of powdered developers that are missed, Selectol Soft. Ektonol (which I think was a marketing gimmick) . When Ilford went broke the first time I panic bought 5 L boxes of Bromophen, I'm down to the last 4 5L boxes. Works great, one of the best investments I've ever made, new stock is 300% higher. Better than a Roth IRA:laugh:
 

mshchem

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Some of us do have to scale back, or buy film right after pay day.....it's why I've moved to bulk rolling almost all my B&W film and keeping a stash of C41 and speciality B&W films....I buy when the money is there and use months or even a couple of years later when the need/desire arises.

Sure, if I could still get Fortepan for a quid per 120 roll I'd be shooting it almost daily. When I returned to film in 2013/14 after a few years absence, I was quite shocked at how comparatively few stocks remained on the market but after a little reading I realised that I could still buy film for all occasions...just often fewer choices in a given segment of the market. Given how film sales have collapsed we're still well catered for and should we wish to be able to purchase Fuji film in 10 years time we need to support them by buying it now too.
I have a 600 liter fridge / freezer full of film and paper. Remember that the US has only recently been eclipsed by China as number 1 producer of carbon dioxide, and they have 1.2 billion more folks than we do. :redface:
 

warden

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I have a 600 liter fridge / freezer full of film and paper. Remember that the US has only recently been eclipsed by China as number 1 producer of carbon dioxide, and they have 1.2 billion more folks than we do. :redface:

OT: I'll store film in the freezer that is already running for my food for exactly this reason. Pros might not have a choice in the matter but for amateurs like myself it's more efficient and eco friendly to buy in smaller quantities as needed. Well it makes sense to me anyway. I might have fifty rolls at a time in the freezer and that's about my limit.
 

Film-Niko

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Your paradigma is wrong because there is no need for increasement of pricing (for the need of
enough earnings of manufacturers)!

Another prove - one of hundreds here - that you don`t understand the basiscs of economics and especially not the special situation the film industry has to face.

Kodak made this job they were forced - in a good manner!:kissing:

Another of your countless lies.
Kodaks has faced the same challenges and problems as all other manufactureres. They had to discontinue the biggest part of their film portfolio. Fact is that Kodak had to discontinue more films in the last 15 years than Fujifilm. E.g. lokk at the wonderful book from Robert Shanebrook "Making Kodak Film": There are all the films listed Kodak has made in the last 15-20 years. And then compare that to what is availble now ( Iam not criticzing Kodak for that, it was necessary).
It is also fact that Kodak has increased film prices in many cases more than Fujifilm. I pay 10% more for Portra compared to Pro 400H from Fuji.
I have to pay more than 30% more for Kodak CN sheet film than for Fuji CR sheet film.
That are the simple facts.
You are permanently talking about prices, but you even don`t know the prices! You don`t know what you are talking about!
Do finally your homework!!
 

Film-Niko

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Yes, there is. The financial situations of both Kodak and Ilford/Harman illustrate this. Both are kept afloat on the basis of shareholders who accept that there is no return on investment, only because the alternative is to lose their investments altogether. Adox/Impex clearly argues for higher sales prices in order to make the necessary investments possible to keep their business running - not even talking about expansion. While this is not explicitly stated as such, it seems likely that companies like Impex and currently also Ferrania rely to a large extent on the willingness of their employees to invest more time into their work than they are paid for, out of sheer passion for what they do (in the case of Ferrania, this is quite clearly visible, in the case of Impex, it is only implied). Fuji's price hikes and product discontinuations shows that keeping regular film in production, both color and B&W but Instax excluded, is not viable and certainly not attractive. With virtually every major manufacturer struggling to remain in this market, it is quite obvious that the current market prices are not sustainable. There are no slack resources left in this market whatsoever, making every manufacturer extremely vulnerable for inevitable occurrences such as economic downturns, supply interruptions or materials becoming unavailable in the quality currently used.


Interesting how you seem to contradict yourself within the scope of two sentences. I frankly don't have a clue what you mean, but then again, this is true 80% of the time.


Gee, I wonder why they didn't think of that. You're stepping over the catch-22 remark I made earlier. Let's do it again: redesigning the photographic materials manufacturing business in order to become more agile, geared towards things like much smaller batches (while maintaining acceptable quality levels) and more flexibility in the quality of source materials, requires substantial investments in redesigning both products and production processes. For the big, diversified player (i.e. Fuji), this investment makes no business sense due to the uncertain and most likely marginal outlook of the market. For the smaller, more specialized players (i.e. Impex, Foma, and by extension even Kodak en Harman), access to capital and the costs of capital is not in line with their financial capabilities. You mentioned venture capitalists (I assume that's what you meant by 'RISC investors'), but they are unlikely to step into this business, except if they see some valuable assets that they can sell off in a short period of time, effectively disintegrating the company in question.

One of the more likely ways out of the situation is further consolidation, which we currently see in the situation of Harman, which is trying to make the most of its manufacturing capacity by acting as a toll manufacturer for other brands than Ilford. Indeed, we have already seen a vertical disintegration at both Ilford and Kodak with the market-end splitting off from the manufacturing-end, and this has paved the way for consolidation, specialization and hence further shake-out. It would not surprise me if there will be a development towards two types of manufacturing firms in this market:
1. Relatively large-volume manufacturing of a limited number of stocks for a few major brands, geared towards efficiency and possibly/hopefully fair quality control, but not necessarily very flexible.
2. Smaller specialized firms consisting of only a few people running a more flexible operation, manufacturing specialty materials that may come and go as these businesses fail and succeed, more likely than not with variable product quality, but potentially interesting offerings.
Whatever happens, the current situation with massive overcapacity in relation to current and expected demand will change one way or another. In the process towards that change, further discontinuations of products, price increases and a bankruptcy here and there will most likely be part of the developments.


I'd like to see your analysis of the price elasticity of photographic film, supported by empirical data and a conceptual model capturing the underlying mechanisms. Lacking this, I remain with the fairly safe assumption that you've glanced briefly at an Economics 101 textbook at some point and now believe you thoroughly understand how specific markets work.


Kodak is struggling. They were 'forced' by bankruptcy into the hands of owners who face losing their investments and therefore pray that their wobbly boat remains afloat. I am not at all convinced that Kodak has managed to restructure their business in the ways necessary to meet the needs of the photographic materials business. In fact, in their communications, they emphasize entirely different markets that they seem to have higher hopes for, suggesting that their commitment to photography is more a matter of necessity than of strategic thinking.

This is the first and the last time I'll take the time to go into one of your ramblings on the photographic market in detail. As someone else said before: it makes no sense to discuss this with you, as your argument is consistently erratic and lacks common (business) sense. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, as am I. So let's agree to disagree, and let's see what the market does in due course. In the end, no one can predict the future.

Thank you for this excellent post! I completely agree.

And another big thank you to Mirko Böddecker and Henning Serger for their outstanding posts and contributions / unique content. Your insight in the industry is a huge benefit and treasure here for all photrio forum members and readers.
Please stay here!
I hope you are not discouraged by the unacceptable nervewrecking behaviour of this troll 'trendland'. These idiots are time thieves.
And I hope the moderaters do their job, so that we can have reasonable discussions without such a "lie robot" in the future.
We have to be attractive for young film shooters, the next generation, and they stay away from a forum where trolls are destroying a rationale discussion.
 
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