Price increasement/discontinuations of films!

[Deleted member 88956]

Please the thread is about real cameras. Keep it real.

Yet Holga is one that kept the production ticking when film was getting to cliff's edge some years back. They need some credit, although not saying without Holga we would be in much bigger trouble today.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Film is a niche product/hobby, and not so expensive. Almost all other luxury hobbies are more expensive (from other art, drinking, partying, to playing games).
Starbucks venti frappuccino costs >5€, carrot cake is ~4€, with some extra syrup and cream - you are close to 15€, which are 3 Adox CHS 100 films. Film is cheap.

Supporting Adox:
- I buy other (non Adox) films, as well as chemicals and papers from Fotoimpex.
- I buy a lot of papers - we need not only to buy films, we need to by papers (especially when shooting B&W).

We can buy all we can, yet if the young don't really take over, the game is going to be over.

 

[Lachlan Young]

On social media only those who choose to look will find it, had they had it shown "against their will" like in schools with sponsored programs, then they would indeed see it. It is a hard task to convince a youngster these days to listen in about some crappy process of shooting on film when instant gratification process is the norm.

We need to get the young into galleries so they can SEE what a photograph looks like, one made on film. None of this is remotely possible through social media.

You're clearly pretty disconnected from what the reality is. Suffice to say that my own & many, many others' experiences are totally the opposite of what you assert & social media does play a key role in linking communities & practitioners. If by 'exhibitions' you mean the kind of awful trite nonsense perpetrated by the amateurishly minded, no one wants to endure that, ever. Plenty do go/ are taken to see great images & great printing & want to learn how to do it. I see this pretty much every day of the week.

They're also not really interested in film Vs digital measurathons as film is clearly far better in the visual/ perceived sense - no one outside of the camera club 'type' is interested in a high contrast LP/mm comparison. The quality of grain & the handling of colour/ contrast are what seem to matter far more.

I was struck by a recent post (on Instagram!) that John Sypal had made about aspects of the Japanese photography scene - that they use cameras to make images - as opposed to making images in order to use (play around pointlessly with in my opinion) cameras. This seems closer to what most of the younger photographers I encounter/ see/ work with feel about film. It's a powerfully expressive tool & its nominal limitations drive much more real creativity than digital's notional lack of limitations.

 

[darkosaric]

We can buy all we can, yet if the young don't really take over, the game is going to be over.

To prawda .

What I see as a positive thing is that the number of the people on the planet is increasing, and also the number of people who can buy films is increasing (good example is China). Excellent book about this is Factfulness form Hans Rosling.
My guess is that there will be enough critical mass in future for small production companies like Adox, or Ilford. Big guys like Fuji and Kodak can go away. That is for B&W, color film future is (IMO) not so bright.

 

[Henning Serger]

You must be joking.

No, I am not.

You seem to think of yourself as one who does know what the industry is doing.

No, I don't think of myself knowing what the industry is doing. I really know what is going on in this industry because I am daily confronted with it, I simply have to know what is happening. I am part of this industry. I am working in it.
I own two independent little research companies, one is focussing on the technological side, the other more on the economical side.
More than a decade ago, when the mainstream opinion was that film will be dead, I did a lot of research and analysis, and with my calculations I came to the conclusion that we will have a film revival. I even predicted the time frame for that. And I have been right, my analysis was spot on. That is e.g. one of the reasons why I am succesfully working in this industry, why the film and equipment manufacturers talk to me, and why they open the doors of their factories for me. I've seen more than a dozen factories from the inside, including five film manufacturers. The last factory visit has just been some weeks ago.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

To prawda .

What I see as a positive thing is that the number of the people on the planet is increasing, and also the number of people who can buy films is increasing (good example is China). Excellent book about this is Factfulness form Hans Rosling.
My guess is that there will be enough critical mass in future for small production companies like Adox, or Ilford. Big guys like Fuji and Kodak can go away. That is for B&W, color film future is (IMO) not so bright.

I agree with your first sentence.
Fortunately I can say that the content of your last paragraph concerning Fujifilm, Kodak and color film is wrong. This idea that "BW will stay, and color film will go away in the long term" is an apug/photrio myth. It has nothing to do with reality. Because
- the color film market is much bigger than the BW film market
- the demand for color film is increasing
- new color products are in the works.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Deleted member 88956]

No, I am not.



No, I don't think of myself knowing what the industry is doing. I really know what is going on in this industry because I am daily confronted with it, I simply have to know what is happening. I am part of this industry. I am working in it.
I own two independent little research companies, one is focussing on the technological side, the other more on the economical side.
More than a decade ago, when the mainstream opinion was that film will be dead, I did a lot of research and analysis, and with my calculations I came to the conclusion that we will have a film revival. I even predicted the time frame for that. And I have been right, my analysis was spot on. That is e.g. one of the reasons why I am succesfully working in this industry, why the film and equipment manufacturers talk to me, and why they open the doors of their factories for me. I've seen more than a dozen factories from the inside, including five film manufacturers. The last factory visit has just been some weeks ago.

Best regards,
Henning

That is good to know and I will try to remember when a question pops to mind that would cater to your specialty, but not that I agree with your earlier statement regarding social media and web sites that are mostly found by those who look them up, and that is missing a very large potential market that is close to unaware of what film shooting experience can bring in (some of which cater to personal development more than just building a photographic skill). In other words, in my opinion whatever is being done is not even close to what could be done to promote shooting on film.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

I agree with your first sentence.
Fortunately I can say that the content of your last paragraph concerning Fujifilm, Kodak and color film is wrong. This idea that "BW will stay, and color film will go away in the long term" is an apug/photrio myth. It has nothing to do with reality. Because
- the color film market is much bigger than the BW film market
- the demand for color film is increasing
- new color products are in the works.

Best regards,
Henning

If color indeed is growing, why are there no new color labs popping up? It can't be a serious increase in demand that would cover color processing in the kitchens, so where are the labs covering it? What am I missing on this one?

 

[darkosaric]

Fortunately I can say that the content of your last paragraph concerning Fujifilm, Kodak and color film is wrong. This idea that "BW will stay, and color film will go away in the long term" is an apug/photrio myth. It has nothing to do with reality. Because
- the color film market is much bigger than the BW film market
- the demand for color film is increasing
- new color products are in the works.

I am glad that I am wrong .

 

[Lachlan Young]

If color indeed is growing, why are there no new color labs popping up?

For the large part because the extant lab capacity is operating at a fraction of its total.

 

[Henning Serger]

If color indeed is growing, why are there no new color labs popping up? It can't be a serious increase in demand that would cover color processing in the kitchens, so where are the labs covering it? What am I missing on this one?

Well,
1) There are new color labs. And even in a significant number. But of course with regional differences: For example in Australia quite a lot new labs openend in the last years. In Germany only a small number of new labs has started operation. But that is not so surprising because Germany has (and always had) an excellent lab infrastructure (probably the best worldwide). Getting your films developed has never been a problem here in Germany over all the years. No matter if you need highest quality professional work or very cheap options. E.g. as all drugstore chain shops here offer film processing (C41, E6 and BW) you can get your films developed at "every corner of the street" because of about 4,000 drugstore chain shops in total in the country.
2) The established, old(er) labs see increasing demand. All labs I've talked to in the last months have reported significantly increasing demand.
For example have a look here:
https://sreda-photo.livejournal.com/393188.html
Last Photokina some further labs have reported similar strong increasing business. In some regions we see the following pattern: The stronger the former decrease in the market was, the stronger the recovering/revival is there now.

And concerning social media and marketing: The manufacturers see a direct correlation of increased social media activities and increasing demand. Therefore it makes sense for them to use these tools.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Ste_S]

I agree with your first sentence.
Fortunately I can say that the content of your last paragraph concerning Fujifilm, Kodak and color film is wrong. This idea that "BW will stay, and color film will go away in the long term" is an apug/photrio myth. It has nothing to do with reality. Because
- the color film market is much bigger than the BW film market
- the demand for color film is increasing
- new color products are in the works.

Best regards,
Henning

Citation needed.

 

[Henning Serger]

Citation needed.

Talk to Kodak, Fujifilm, Ilford, Fotoimpex, B&H, the labs etc. They all will tell you exactly that.
I am doing that for years. It's part of my market analysing projects. Part of my job.

What do you think why almost all labs have roller transport processing machines or dip-and-dunk machines = high(er) volume machines, for color film. And rotary processors (= lower volume equipment) for BW.
A minority of the professional labs are running roller transport or dip-and-dunk machines for BW.
The reason is simple: The market for color film is much bigger.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Team ADOX]

Because
- the color film market is much bigger than the BW film market
- the demand for color film is increasing
- new color products are in the works.

That is correct.
And the demand for BW film is increasing, too. But you certainly know that as well as a result of your market research.

 

[Prest_400]

Scanners need to get into production anew, not just renewed, refurbished etc. as is the case now. If film users raised to much higher levels (judged by film market expansion alone) there would be market to invest into on the scanning side as well. It is disheartening to see essentially zero development in scanners, and technology has advanced so much, unreal scanning qualities to large audiences would be possible at reasonable costs. A Nikon 9000 calling 3+ grand today is just ridiculous.

Agree on the wet darkroom, which would also be better supported if film floods the market again. Just the times are such that one can hardly get away from digital side of things, if for nothing else, the convenience of submissions and presentations.

I am generating an opinion that Scanners won't be needed anymore. I've kept an eye on people using Digital cameras with macro lenses in repro stands, and the results are excellent. Software like Negative Lab Pro (which is basically just about color inversion from negatives) bring results to what the Fuji and Noritsu scanners do.
There's the discussion of Bayer color subsampling and all, but the results I have seen online in some dimensions are excellent and might approach dedicated scanners, only challenged by drum scanners.
Some people in the community are experimenting with automatic carriers for this purpose. I.e. Something that makes a scanner like the Pakon redundant.

Film is a niche product/hobby, and not so expensive. Almost all other luxury hobbies are more expensive (from other art, drinking, partying, to playing games).
Starbucks venti frappuccino costs >5€, carrot cake is ~4€, with some extra syrup and cream - you are close to 15€, which are 3 Adox CHS 100 films. Film is cheap.

Supporting Adox:
- I buy other (non Adox) films, as well as chemicals and papers from Fotoimpex.
- I buy a lot of papers - we need not only to buy films, we need to by papers (especially when shooting B&W).

I received last week an order of 120 Ilford film from Fotoimpex (for some spurious reason, the Deltas were below 5€ in bulk, and now prices have been readjusted a notch above FP/HP).
Sadly, due to unavailability (CHSII) I didn't order Adox materials but hope my purchase helps in their venture. Also, I am glad to see they are working on adapting their products for new production and finally have some great projects like Polywarmtone almost here.

When looking at the sum, I agree with Darko's comparison to Starbucks. But, a negative will be much more memorable than a frappé and piece of cake.
And if on a budget (120) Fomapan is still very well priced. I wish we still had some of the dirt cheap (Shanghai) film... for the Holga!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Citation needed.

Not really Henning has more than a decade of building a strong technical reputation at this website.