There's no problem finding plate holders in good condition that fit modern cameras (with correct plane of focus), I've bought many in the past couple of years and never pay more than £2/just over $3 for each DDS.
Ian
Poll: Would you buy dry-plates?
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There's no problem finding plate holders in good condition that fit modern cameras (with correct plane of focus), I've bought many in the past couple of years and never pay more than £2/just over $3 for each DDS.
Ian
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 6,839
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- Multi Format
"No, probably not" isn't strongly negative enough.
Why not? Glass plates don't appeal. I don't have to have a reason.
Hi Chris,
Yes, I could see myself as a modest regular user of reliably available glass plates. Glass plates do appeal. And the reason is the enjoyment I would derive from using them.
Where I live slow plates could realistically only be used during the handful of weeks we call summer, really just a short break between the endless rainstorms. So my usage pattern might be skewed accordingly. But I already have 5x7 and 8x10 antique plate holders, could make more out of surplus 8x10 film holders (like the wet plate guys do), and I even have several glass plate negative carriers for my Omega enlarger, including a 4x5 guy.
When you say slow, what are we talking? Are you thinking of hand-coating? Or maybe having lucky access to something like these, mentioned in a much earlier APUG thread?
Ken
Yes, I could see myself as a modest regular user of reliably available glass plates. Glass plates do appeal. And the reason is the enjoyment I would derive from using them.
Where I live slow plates could realistically only be used during the handful of weeks we call summer, really just a short break between the endless rainstorms. So my usage pattern might be skewed accordingly. But I already have 5x7 and 8x10 antique plate holders, could make more out of surplus 8x10 film holders (like the wet plate guys do), and I even have several glass plate negative carriers for my Omega enlarger, including a 4x5 guy.
When you say slow, what are we talking? Are you thinking of hand-coating? Or maybe having lucky access to something like these, mentioned in a much earlier APUG thread?
Ken
For me it would definitely depend on price, I have several plate holders in both5x7and whole plate that I have wanted to try.
I thought about this for a while and the honest answer is "no probably not". If I got interested in dry plate I think I'd try to make my own.
Definitely no. I have no desire to use dry or wet plates. I just want to make a good picture, and I don't need any more rabbit holes to run down. Film is a proven technology manufactured to highest tolerances and quality levels, and it's still affordable. I think that's a great place to start if I'm making a picture. Color-blind or orthochromatic emulsions don't fit into anything I do or want to do.
Bravo if you want to produce such an item, I hope you and your backers have deep pockets and the desire and ability to produce a high-quality product for years to come. I hope there's a ready market out there waiting for you. Since glass plates haven't been in high demand since about 1935, you have a tough road ahead of you.
Bravo if you want to produce such an item, I hope you and your backers have deep pockets and the desire and ability to produce a high-quality product for years to come. I hope there's a ready market out there waiting for you. Since glass plates haven't been in high demand since about 1935, you have a tough road ahead of you.
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2011
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- 4x5 Format
I might buy pre made plates depends on the price. What I would like even more is affordable glass plate holders.
I would love to give it a try. If it worked out I would definitely try to build my own. If it doesn't work out then I have not had to invest a lot of time and cost into the project.
David A. Goldfarb
Moderator
I'd be interested in trying them, and I have holders for 4x5 and 5x7 plates--even a 5x7 bag mag for 12 plates. Seems like a costly habit though, and I can't see sustaining it.
I'd love to be able to buy dryplates , it's a pain making them!
Any chance of wholeplate?
Pretty please!
Simon
OP
OP
Hey y'all,
There are a lot of useful comments here; it's giving me a good sense of the current state of thought on the topic.
I'm curious what constitutes a 'high price' to the average person here who expressed skepticism towards the cost. It's true that when you can get ADOX b&w film for less than a $1 per 4x5", there's no way a small glass-plate outfit could beat that. But the price of that aforementioned AGFA APX 100 (about $15 per 6.5x9cm plate) is way too high in my opinion. I've done some very realistic numbers and I think I could supply 4x5" glass plates for a bit less than $4/plate, supplied in a completely archival storage box. This is taking into consideration materials, time, facilities rental and a conservative estimate of monthly sales.
The other thing I'm hearing is that archaic plate sizes are probably where the greatest market is. Afterall, how many of these cameras exist out there, with dedicated plate holders just asking for something to put in them? So far I'm hearing WHOLE PLATE; what else? If this market sounds like you, give me a sense of how you'd use such a dry-plate product.
Some of you want nothing to do with dry-plates; no worries, I can't blame you. But don't overlook the benefits of a dry-plate in the teaching of photography's most basic tenants. One of the greatest advantages of a color-blind plate is that you can develop your negatives under safe-light. I doubt that there are very many film shooters who have ever experienced such a boon. Development by inspection allows a photographer to really grasp & understand the control that is possible by manipulating that fundamental relationship between exposure & development. Furthermore, the color sensitivity issue forces you to be aware of how the final image will look when compared to the scene before you; a very real & basic lesson in 'pre-visualization'. These are my glass half full comments...
Now, the color sensitivity & speed is an interesting point. There's something slightly romantic to me about producing authentic dry-plates; which when you look at the first generation is super slow & color-blind. On the other hand, the natural progression of the dry-plate market was innovation, and this slow, color-blind, first-generation era plate would only be the beginning, if indeed there is some semblance of a market there.
The holder issue is an interesting one. For the "archaic" plate sizes, there is de facto not a plate holder issue, in fact, there's a plate issue in these formats. The holders exist but there is nothing to put in them. Does this sound accurate? For 4x5", 5x7" & 8x10" on the other hand, there is a plate holder issue. Film holders abound, but the plate holders that exist in these formats are bound to be old, falling apart and possibly expensive. I think it's clear that the most used LF camera in the world is a 4x5", so if a new plate holder could be manufactured in this size, that would remove quite a large barrier to entry. Would you say that's accurate? It's actually not so outlandish to imagine a new plate holder being manufactured... and there are hacks that can allow film holders to be used as well.
So keep the comments coming, it's all useful to me; positive or negative. I am very seriously ambitious about starting such an operation. I know I'm not going to get rich, but if there's a modest enough market to pay the rent on a darkroom space, then it allows me an opportunity to continue research into chemical photography. I think there are a lot of exciting opportunities here... more to follow... gotta run to work at the present...
Chris
There are a lot of useful comments here; it's giving me a good sense of the current state of thought on the topic.
I'm curious what constitutes a 'high price' to the average person here who expressed skepticism towards the cost. It's true that when you can get ADOX b&w film for less than a $1 per 4x5", there's no way a small glass-plate outfit could beat that. But the price of that aforementioned AGFA APX 100 (about $15 per 6.5x9cm plate) is way too high in my opinion. I've done some very realistic numbers and I think I could supply 4x5" glass plates for a bit less than $4/plate, supplied in a completely archival storage box. This is taking into consideration materials, time, facilities rental and a conservative estimate of monthly sales.
The other thing I'm hearing is that archaic plate sizes are probably where the greatest market is. Afterall, how many of these cameras exist out there, with dedicated plate holders just asking for something to put in them? So far I'm hearing WHOLE PLATE; what else? If this market sounds like you, give me a sense of how you'd use such a dry-plate product.
Some of you want nothing to do with dry-plates; no worries, I can't blame you. But don't overlook the benefits of a dry-plate in the teaching of photography's most basic tenants. One of the greatest advantages of a color-blind plate is that you can develop your negatives under safe-light. I doubt that there are very many film shooters who have ever experienced such a boon. Development by inspection allows a photographer to really grasp & understand the control that is possible by manipulating that fundamental relationship between exposure & development. Furthermore, the color sensitivity issue forces you to be aware of how the final image will look when compared to the scene before you; a very real & basic lesson in 'pre-visualization'. These are my glass half full comments...
Now, the color sensitivity & speed is an interesting point. There's something slightly romantic to me about producing authentic dry-plates; which when you look at the first generation is super slow & color-blind. On the other hand, the natural progression of the dry-plate market was innovation, and this slow, color-blind, first-generation era plate would only be the beginning, if indeed there is some semblance of a market there.
The holder issue is an interesting one. For the "archaic" plate sizes, there is de facto not a plate holder issue, in fact, there's a plate issue in these formats. The holders exist but there is nothing to put in them. Does this sound accurate? For 4x5", 5x7" & 8x10" on the other hand, there is a plate holder issue. Film holders abound, but the plate holders that exist in these formats are bound to be old, falling apart and possibly expensive. I think it's clear that the most used LF camera in the world is a 4x5", so if a new plate holder could be manufactured in this size, that would remove quite a large barrier to entry. Would you say that's accurate? It's actually not so outlandish to imagine a new plate holder being manufactured... and there are hacks that can allow film holders to be used as well.
So keep the comments coming, it's all useful to me; positive or negative. I am very seriously ambitious about starting such an operation. I know I'm not going to get rich, but if there's a modest enough market to pay the rent on a darkroom space, then it allows me an opportunity to continue research into chemical photography. I think there are a lot of exciting opportunities here... more to follow... gotta run to work at the present...
Chris
Quarter and half plate.
This is precisely the situation I'm in.
Will these be available at prices in the UK similar to those in the USA and will you be able to get them here without being X-Rayed to death?
RR
RR
Brand new modern plate holders (4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14) are available here:
In Camera Industries
Yes, very expensive for the casual user. But they are available.
Ken
Very pretty, they are... but at that price it isn't even within the realm of consideration.
Plate holder availability isn't an issue. Chris has it right. The oddball formats are readily available and for the common formats it's falling down easy to convert an old film holder to a one plate holder. In fact, the older and rattier a wood holder is (and therefor cheap) the easier. The only requirement is that the darkslide and light trap be in good shape. I can see a related cottage industry of selling refurbished film and plate holders.
Also, both colorblind and ortho plates can be developed by inspection under red safelight. "By inspection" changes the whole negative making experience. It really is quite marvelous.
Also, both colorblind and ortho plates can be developed by inspection under red safelight. "By inspection" changes the whole negative making experience. It really is quite marvelous.
Thinking about this part further, there's another data point that may (or may not) be worth considering. Bob Crowley and the New55 Film guys just successfully completed a Dead Link Removed for that follow-on successor to Polaroid Type 55 P/N peel-apart instant film.
Not glass plates, to be sure. But it is another very small niche product targeting the lower end of the LF spectrum. There won't be the issue of available film holders. But the big issue of a sustainable market over time will be a similar concern.
Their KS "rewards" price was $15/sheet. And their stated production goal price is somewhere in the neighborhood of $6/sheet.
For those numbers they were able to raise pledges totaling $415,025 from 2,475 interested parties. Not Carl Sagan's "billions and billions." But perhaps a workable market for a somewhat similar cottage industry product?
For me personally, given that I'm already in to New55 for 20 reward sheets and (hopefully) looking forward to doing 4x5 Crown Graphic street portraits at ~$6/sheet in modest quantities, a cost of only ~$4/glass plate sounds very reasonable.
Not to mention affordably fun.
Ken
After WWII many 5x4 DDS film holders were dual film & plate with the film inserts, I have 0ver 30 MPP & Graflex holders like this, at some stage the film insert was riveted or screwed in place. Late production were film only.
Ian
Ian
OP
OP
Denise & Ken, you guys are definitely on my wavelength, and thinking along the same lines I have been.
Bob Crowley's efforts with New55 were remarkable and I think it really goes to show you that there is a considerable market of large format photographers, perhaps bigger than anyone would have guessed.
Polaroid & instant processes have a lot of cache & appeal, there's no doubt about that, but I think the point is that 4x5" cameras and LF in general aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Particularly when there are still so many exciting opportunities for innovation in the field. Now that the digital takeover is complete, we can get back to our darkrooms...
Bob Crowley's efforts with New55 were remarkable and I think it really goes to show you that there is a considerable market of large format photographers, perhaps bigger than anyone would have guessed.
Polaroid & instant processes have a lot of cache & appeal, there's no doubt about that, but I think the point is that 4x5" cameras and LF in general aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Particularly when there are still so many exciting opportunities for innovation in the field. Now that the digital takeover is complete, we can get back to our darkrooms...
Chris,
Looking forward to seeing what you have in mind! Good luck. FWIW, I think the field has legs. Our culture in general seems just about ready to break out of a couple of decades of canned this and electronic that.
I wouldn't go too much on the poll here. APUG regulars are oddly conservative.
Looking forward to seeing what you have in mind! Good luck. FWIW, I think the field has legs. Our culture in general seems just about ready to break out of a couple of decades of canned this and electronic that.
I wouldn't go too much on the poll here. APUG regulars are oddly conservative.
When and where and in what sizes (please say whole plate) can we buy please?
RR
RR
OP
OP
Thanks again Densie 
That's reassuring.
RR, stay tuned, whole-plate will definitely be in the line-up. I'd like to say that this project will get some real momentum by 2015.
That's reassuring.RR, stay tuned, whole-plate will definitely be in the line-up. I'd like to say that this project will get some real momentum by 2015.
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