Please Suggest a Good, Reliable Photo Lab

[Ian Grant]

Is jo-bo processing considered a "professional" way for film to be processed by a lab? I thought its Dip and dunk or nothing for colour? black and white dip and dunk or hand processing?.... but Jo-bo? scary for so many reasons.

Bob's posted elsewhere why he prefers the Jobo system, it's highly sophisticated & designed to do exactly what he needs.

You missed a third option, Roller transport, which is probably how most small labs have processed films for years now.

Most of the professional labs I used in the UK switched to RT machines for 35mm & 120 quite a few years ago now with no drop in standards. But it can be a different scenario in smaller semi-pro labs where staff are sometimes poorly paid, given bare minimum training and inadequately supervised. As soon as an RT machine is poorly maintained problems arise.

Aside from the OP's there's been another thread on a B&W processing & dirty negatives at the same time, the poster complained to the lab, who then found a similar problem with negatives that were still uncollected (processed at the same time). So they accepted it was their fault, were going to re-wash the negatives.

Ian

 

[Stephen Frizza]

Bob's posted elsewhere why he prefers the Jobo system, it's highly sophisticated & designed to do exactly what he needs.

You missed a third option, Roller transport, which is probably how most small labs have processed films for years now.

Most of the professional labs I used in the UK switched to RT machines for 35mm & 120 quite a few years ago now with no drop in standards. But it can be a different scenario in smaller semi-pro labs where staff are sometimes poorly paid, given bare minimum training and inadequately supervised. As soon as an RT machine is poorly maintained problems arise.

Aside from the OP's there's been another thread on a B&W processing & dirty negatives at the same time, the poster complained to the lab, who then found a similar problem with negatives that were still uncollected (processed at the same time). So they accepted it was their fault, were going to re-wash the negatives.

Ian

ARGH roller transport! I don't care how well maintained the machine might be I'de rather stick my dick in a blender than put my film into one of those. I own a Jobo myself along with a noritsu V50 (c-41) and a noritsu R420 (E-6) roller transport processor. I also own multiple Dip and Dunk processors for E-6,C-41 and B&W and Scala processing and having worked extensively for years with all 3 systems (jobo, roller transport and dip n dunk). It cant be argued. A well maintained, highly active Dip and Dunk processing line is the superior system for colour film processing.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Sorry to disagree with you Stephen
but single shot , rotary processing is the ultimate in film processing
Dip Dunk a very distant third. replenished lines and carryover of last foriegn batch of film make my skin crawl.

Those hand processing in stainless steel with good agitation would be second.

just my 2cents

Is jo-bo processing considered a "professional" way for film to be processed by a lab? I thought its Dip and dunk or nothing for colour? black and white dip and dunk or hand processing?.... but Jo-bo? scary for so many reasons.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

The thing about the dip and dunk systems is they are somewhat inflexible when it comes to changing development times for people who like to deliberately overexpose or underexpose film to gain certain effects. I worked in a lab that had a fairly large Refrema set-up, and as long as the processing was normal without any alterations in development times, the record of mucked up film was one in a million. It was so consistent, convenient, and fast, all while quality of the chromes and C-41 film was absolutely stunning.
But it was very well maintained machinery, and test strips were made all the time. Automatic replenishing too.
We never got any complaints from anybody shooting 35mm to 8x10.

However, as soon as we got requests for pulling the film two stops or more, you had to physically go into the processing chamber and start moving racks manually, in the dark, and that was very dodgy business. It would usually come out fine, but the risk of failure was pretty high.
If one had a Jobo, it's easy (from what I understand) to customize development time for deliberately over- or under-developing the film.

With black and white film? How can it get better than a stainless steel tank where you can even adjust agitation manually for each roll? I don't think you can do that with a JoBo or a Dip and Dunk.

I thought the Refrema E6 and C41 was great for economy. It was a very expensive piece of machinery, but as soon as local pro photographers found out about a well maintained chemistry and machinery, we ended up paying off the machine very rapidly.
I processed a lot of my own film in that Refrema, and I haven't had better results elsewhere.

- Thomas

 

[Bob Carnie]

Stephen be careful with the blender. I do not care for roller transport as well but prefer to keep my body parts. I had a fuji 2500 roller transport and tried it a couple of years back , worked very well for non essential film but the mere fact that the emulsion was being bended around all these rollers and potential for jam forced me to throw the dam thing out. With this machine I could have offered very low prices that would satisfy what seems to be the majority of photographers, but I am too old and cranky to want to justify why our film was not as good as the film I was running through my Jobo's.


We use pre soaks, distilled water for the devs and final rinse, we only use the chemicals once for absolute freshness . Our runs are based on film testing with each client and controlled based on multiple visits to the lab.

I don't doubt your lines are in control and well maintained, I have been watching these things for quite awhile myself and still prefer rotary.
We are running nowhere near the volumne of days past, but there are times a couple a year where we will run Jobo constant for many days in a row no stop and it performs brilliantly.

I am scanning work all the time from various labs output and can say that the crap on the film is disgusting . viewed at 100% very scary indeed.
I would not run E6 through rotary, only because in Toronto historically we had three very competent E6 labs with top end Refrema's with no need for the fourth.

Colourgenics, Steichanlab and Toronto Image Works.

 

[CGW]

Any chance of clarifying your processing pricing as discussed above, Bob?

 

[andrewkirkby]

I can highly recommend Stephen Frizza (The Lighthouse Lab - Sydney, Australia) for film processing.
After using another Sydney "pro lab" for a couple of years and receiving a few stuffed up rolls (film damage mainly) i went with Stephen because of his dedication to film and analog process.

I have seen his Tecnolab Dip & Dunk machines in operation a few times now and his attention to process control is unsurpassed.

I have now had B&W printing, Ilfochrome printing, RA-4 and C-41 Processing as well as a swathe of E6 done by him and have always been pleased with the results.

It's only by Apug that i know Stephen and the best part- his lab is a 2km trip from my office

 

[jeffreyg]

I haven't read all the posts and I am sure you have received good advice. Personally I use B&W and do my own processing and printing but when I use transparency film I have been sending it to BCW Photo Imaging in Dallas, Tx and have been very pleased. They are a full service lab and can be found on the web. Their phone number is 1-800-445-0264.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

The thing about the dip and dunk systems is they are somewhat inflexible when it comes to changing development times for people who like to deliberately overexpose or underexpose film to gain certain effects......

as soon as we got requests for pulling the film two stops or more, you had to physically go into the processing chamber and start moving racks manually, in the dark, and that was very dodgy business. It would usually come out fine, but the risk of failure was pretty high.
If one had a Jobo, it's easy (from what I understand) to customize development time for deliberately over- or under-developing the film.


- Thomas

The great thing about my dip and dunk processors designed by tecnolab is that each rack has a bar on the top which magnets are places onto the machine reads the magnetic fields and changes the processing speed automatically without effecting any other film in the processor. this is a HUGE advantage to myself as a lab owner as it does not slow down processing. God Bless tecnolab. sandy this is another thing you cant do in a jobo. I agree Thomas black and white..hand processed cant be beaten!

 

[Stephen Frizza]

A jobo is certainly an ok way for processing film assuming its well maintained however the Pro lab industry around the world has always seen Dip and Dunk as the Pinnacle of processing colour film materials. How do you run control strips with each batch? when your using one shot chemistry? and what good is a clip test when your dumping the chemicals you have just done the test in? A well maintained jobo is a good machine, I know as I own one and have used it.

However I have seen some horrible issues occur with other Jobos... damaging the reputation of drum processing. There is A LOT more handling of the film when loading film onto a jobo reel compared to a Dip and Dunk Processor rack. The Jobo is not a not a dry to dry process unlike the dip and dunk system. E-6 chemistry works far better when it is matured by a high throughput of film such as what occurs in dip and dunk than in one shot and I’m sure Photo Engineer can confirm this. As for C-41 process and carry over of chemistry the tecnolab C-41 dip and dunk has a wash bath between the bleach, fix and final preventing carryover of chemistry. In a well designed dip and Dunk it just doesn't happen. The jobo is a far slower method of film processing and also a lot more expensive to run film by film, its just not economical unless the amount of film a lab is running is tiny in which a dip and dunk machine couldn’t survive due to low throughput. This is one of the only advantaged Jobo has over Dip and Dunk.

There is also a scary issue Ive seen with some jobos where colour film has developed with chemical streaks from developer not not agitating evenly across the film.

In the end of the day I could rant for hours.... but theres more than one reason I'm running Dip and Dunk processors day in day out and my jobo sits quietly with my roller transport processors.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

Thanks for the positive feedback on my services Andrew.

 

[Bob Carnie]

This thread has made me think over the weekend about our film services , The following blather is only about professional labs with long standing reputations and history.
This is directed exactly to **please suggest a Good , Reliable Photo Lab** I will try not to swear or be unpleasant.

I have to say that under no circumstances would I feel comfortable running a mail order business, even if I could figure a way to pay my staff and rent and still offer $3 film runs.
I think if I ran my operation out of my home, had unlimited time to do the work and concentrated soley on this service then I am kind of sure I could make a living for my family.
What a concept, I imagine there are many here who could do this , so why not give it ago, I am sure there would be lots of people here willing to give you a shot at processing their film.

For my lab it is not a matter of looking down on 1 roll customers , rather how can my doors be kept open with that turnaround. For us we are printers of photographic works therefore I want to concentrate on this. We do process film for those clients wanting us to print therefore the film room is much a loss leader rather than an income generator. As stated in a post earlier we do other things that are the cost savers for our clients.
Last fall my film technician went to Asia to assist one of our clients from Europe, Nigel then brought the film directly back to the lab and we processed. This saved our client one commercial return flight from his home and one week away from his home. We are doing this again this fall, and a couple of planned trips next year.
We are in the process of making a new film processor, see Jobo last legs thread, but the most significant feature of this processor, is that it is on wheels and able to be stored or tucked away when not in use.
Film is not dead, this forum proves it , but the days of commercial jobs by professional photographers are dead, dead, dead, in Toronto and many large markets.
Those doubting that are either ill informed or not in the game.

I encourage anyone here to try to service the niche need, that seems to be required for this membership.

the list of quality operations that I listed , though still running film, they will ultimately not be around, or not willing to process film, the commercial world has gone digital , sadly a lot of labs that fell off the face of the earth were owner operators who were just not ready to invest in the digital world, it is expensive, my decision came around 2002 , I was early 50's too young to retire and for me I made investments with my business partner to work in both worlds, analogue and digital, the learning curve was steep and expensive. We feel it was worth the effort but time will tell.

Use it or loose it , is a phrase that I think apply's to film, there will come a time when the market place will say to the Big Manufacturers , it is time to only do short runs, it is time to stop coating this product, it is time to invest more in digital.

I think we all understand this , one way will be for those of us that want film around to still buy fresh, learn to process in home darkrooms and have fun, I do not think that there will be many professional labs willing to do so within 5 years, I hope I am wrong but the best E6 C41 lab in my area now only offers minilab processing. If they screw up, they will high rez the film and fix in PS.
It really is a sign of the times to me.

 

[andrewkirkby]

Thanks for the positive feedback on my services Andrew.

Credit where credit is due.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

.......Film is not dead, this forum proves it , but the days of commercial jobs by professional photographers are dead, dead, dead, in Toronto and many large markets. Those doubting that are either ill informed or not in the game.

I encourage anyone here to try to service the niche need, that seems to be required for this membership.

the list of quality operations that I listed , though still running film, they will ultimately not be around, or not willing to process film, the commercial world has gone digital , sadly a lot of labs that fell off the face of the earth were owner operators who were just not ready to invest in the digital world....

I don't know what to reply to this... it sounds like I'm reading a horror story!
The days of commercial jobs shot by professional photographers who use film is VERY MUCH ALIVE! There are times when international clients fly down for shoots book me out to process in excess of 1000 rolls of 120 and 500 sheets of 4x5" Film and want it processed ASAP for them to take back to their country of origin...my machines run full pelt and I question why digital isnt taking some of my work load!!!

Admittedly there are days where I may only process 50-100 rolls of film...yes by old standards thats dead quiet. But on those days Im too busy hand printing ilfochrome.

I feel the main thing all this digital Hoo Har has done is separate the elite from the everyday. And when a big budget high end jobs need to be done where quality is paramount Film is always in action.

I have noticed the past year an increased interest in film and as a 100% traditional analog pro lab owner I do not think I'm in a niche market. It is big and thriving and in its most exciting time!!! I am sure it will be here long into the future.

Oh and as a bit of "proof being in the pudding" please see the 11th picture down in this link... Thats the top of the film bin that I just got the top of in the picture of my film processing workbench.. funny its full of spent film paper rolls....come in any time of day and that will be the case, it usually fills up a few times a day.

http://thelighthouselab.blogspot.com/2010/03/peek-through-lab.html

 

[FilmOnly]

I appreciate the second recommendation for North Coast--thanks, 6x9. On Saturday, I sent them two rolls of C-41. I hope North Coast will be the answer. They are a bit more expensive than a few of my previous labs, but, if they provide good service, it will be worth it. In the interest of being precise, I note that I am not a "one roll" customer. In most cases, I will send along at least three rolls, and sometimes as many as five.

I also appreciate your further commentary, Bob. Indeed, all of us are aware of the suspect furture of commercial film processing. Perhaps things will improve somehow...we can always hope.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Stephen

I am happy for you , Australia maybe the last command post for commercial film business.

Sadly it is not alive and well in North America , I wish it was but it isn't.

I don't know what to reply to this... it sounds like I'm reading a horror story!
The days of commercial jobs shot by professional photographers who use film is VERY MUCH ALIVE! There are times when international clients fly down for shoots book me out to process in excess of 1000 rolls of 120 and 500 sheets of 4x5" Film and want it processed ASAP for them to take back to their country of origin...my machines run full pelt and I question why digital isnt taking some of my work load!!!

Admittedly there are days where I may only process 50-100 rolls of film...yes by old standards thats dead quiet. But on those days Im too busy hand printing ilfochrome.

I feel the main thing all this digital Hoo Har has done is separate the elite from the everyday. And when a big budget high end jobs need to be done where quality is paramount Film is always in action.

I have noticed the past year an increased interest in film and as a 100% traditional analog pro lab owner I do not think I'm in a niche market. It is big and thriving and in its most exciting time!!! I am sure it will be here long into the future.

Oh and as a bit of "proof being in the pudding" please see the 11th picture down in this link... Thats the top of the film bin that I just got the top of in the picture of my film processing workbench.. funny its full of spent film paper rolls....come in any time of day and that will be the case, it usually fills up a few times a day.

http://thelighthouselab.blogspot.com/2010/03/peek-through-lab.html

 

[Stephen Frizza]

Stephen

I am happy for you , Australia maybe the last command post for commercial film business.

Sadly it is not alive and well in North America , I wish it was but it isn't.

I had a client just last month fly down from North America... at least film is cheaper to buy there! I Don't think Australia is the last command post at all.
I think I'm obsessive about keeping it alive in this part of the world. But there are so many awesome labs and people running them around the globe keeping it alive!

I wish we analog lab owners networked better and got out heads out of the darkroom and said Hi to everyone and let them know we are still here processing and printing!!! perhaps that's whats happened? We have all become so busy when so many fled over to digital we don't have time to pop out of the darkroom and say hello at a normal hour.... its 1am as a write this.

 

[Bob Carnie]

We are busy printing as well, but the OP started this thread about film processing labs, and the sad truth is the bulk of commercial jobs that use to fill my lab are now being done with digital capture.
If this is not the case in Austrailia then I am very sceptical, but happy for you.
I do not know of any commercial photographers in the GTA *4.5 million souls* not using either phase or high end digital DSLR.
Those commercial photographers are now using film for personal projects but certainly not for commisioned gigs.
I truly wish this was not the case , but it is what it is.

I had a client just last month fly down from North America... at least film is cheaper to buy there! I Don't think Australia is the last command post at all.
I think I'm obsessive about keeping it alive in this part of the world. But there are so many awesome labs and people running them around the globe keeping it alive!

I wish we analog lab owners networked better and got out heads out of the darkroom and said Hi to everyone and let them know we are still here processing and printing!!! perhaps that's whats happened? We have all become so busy when so many fled over to digital we don't have time to pop out of the darkroom and say hello at a normal hour.... its 1am as a write this.

 

[CGW]

But is Bob really on some sort of photographic Galapagos? What about your printing business? Profitable? Obviously or Elevator wouldn't be around. Still waiting for some clarification on his earlier comments re: Elevator's pricing on 120 processing. Bob?

 

[Bob Carnie]

Sorry , not sure what your question is about 120.
If you want 8 up I will do it , if there is an overlap you assume the risk.
therefore each roll is at $5.625 plus hst.
Once my new machine is in place I may be raising my prices to $60 per run which will then mean $7.50 plus hst.
Single run, Pyro, D76 or Tmax.


We do make enough to stay alive with Elevator. Film Processing being about 1% of gross.

But is Bob really on some sort of photographic Galapagos? What about your printing business? Profitable? Obviously or Elevator wouldn't be around. Still waiting for some clarification on his earlier comments re: Elevator's pricing on 120 processing. Bob?

 

[Bob Carnie]

Sorry I should add this to show some historical perspective .

1990 started business - 10 other competitors- Film and contact %

1991-94/5 -60% of gross
1995-2000 - 35% of gross
2000-2003 - 15% of gross
2003 -2007 - 5% of gross

2010 - 1% of gross

1 or 2 other labs still offering quality film process.

***these numbers are not exact but pretty close****

 

[Stephen Frizza]

If this is not the case in Austrailia then I am very sceptical, but happy for you.
I do not know of any commercial photographers in the GTA *4.5 million souls* not using either phase or high end digital DSLR.

Theres no need to be skeptical, Australia is a tiny market and certainly the bulk of professional photographers shooting commercial jobs down here are using high end digital. Its lucky I have a global portfolio of commercial clients sending me analog work from many different countries.

A portion of this market has declined into digital and a tactic I took when observing this transition was to focus on other markets for film photography. I have focused very heavily on the global Art Market. A sector which is very demanding of very high quality but is also Thriving when it comes to film and traditional printing.

The fact is my business survives 100 percent from film processing and printing. Many of the jobs I do are coming in from international clients. I think its essential for any business who wants to keep film alive and thriving to adapt to market changes and I don't feel I'm the only lab making most of its profit from a very healthy film market. At a guess I would say this is also the case for labs like Dr5 and Dwayne's etc... (I apologize profusely if this isn't true for their businesses).

 

[Bob Carnie]

I think all the labs I listed work globally, mine included, I am glad for you that you are so busy with film processing , your company is indeed a niche service if you offer no digital whatsoever.

 

[CGW]

Anyone processing and printing from film is a niche player. Still, remarkably few--if any--labs here in the Toronto area make much effort to reach film shooters and assume they're extinct or eccentrics best avoided. Ed Burtynsky's Toronto Image Works(TIW) is well-known for his personal work and quality service. Bob Carnie's irascibility aside, his shop is well-known among a far smaller clientele than TIW. Why? Probably lots of reasons(certainly nothing to do with quality) but I'm not sensing much film friendliness or much interest in expanding it. Dr5 seems quite healthy.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

I think all the labs I listed work globally, mine included, I am glad for you that you are so busy with film processing , your company is indeed a niche service if you offer no digital whatsoever.

I do have some digital equipment and have done so for some time though these pieces of equipment are only placed into operation under special request by clients (an event which is uncommon). These items include :

A flextight 848 for mid level scanning and an epson V-700 for proof scanning.
i did own a Linotype-hell drum scanner with drums capable of holding works up to A2 in size...i binned it last Christmas.

I have a Kodak LVT Film recorder for printing digital files back to film. Allowing for analog prints from digital with the beautiful qualities of analog being
re-introduced.

Alternatively I have a share in a durst lambda for printing out digital files.

I also own a Fuji Frontier (currently in storage) and a Noritsu minilab printer which is in use.

Another digital accessory I have is an Epson 44" Inkjet printer for more serious inkjet work and a canon pixma 9500 to print out basic images (mainly to draw job briefs on)

These along with a few other digital machines I have sitting around the place are side line parts to the company. They account for such a tiny part of business income I just dont care to consider it a source of profit (though it marginally is).

So many other businesses have invested in these digital technologies there is no point in me offering them as the bulk of my business. No matter how well I could do it the quality of digital just isn't there when compared to the analog results that stand next to it.

This being said though, they are used. For example when clients needs scans from film to match exhibition prints then i will do the scans for them. But in the end of the day digital machines just doesn't make the grade for the qualities my clients demand.

I feel quite sad hearing you think film is a niche market because it really Isn't. Just look at APUG with its excess of 40,000 subscribers from all around the globe. Film is an multinational, intercontinental billion dollar industry. There is more film choice than ever and so many options for print output. Now is the time to embrace analog. Its survived the digital onslaught, It's become more accessible (thanks digital for making analog equipment sooo much cheaper) and with a new generation having grown up on digital they are now seeking out what can set their images apart from other peoples...the answer lies in film! Holgas, Lomos have been a huge launch pad for the new film users and they are now moving onto more sophisticated cameras (which are now far cheaper than a decade ago) without the same fear of the unknown that has been held with past generations. This trend it only going to increase.

Traditional Analog film processing and printing isn't a niche market. Its a specialist field but hasn't it always been?