Please explain Ilford multigrade filters to me.

[ChrisFairfowl]

I'm probably the worst kind of amateur ever to be let loose in a darkroom. I choose a grade of paper (filter) I think will work best for the neg having scrutinised the contact sheet. Having measured Highlight and Shadow and established where the mid tone of the negative is, I use the meter to control the mid tone exposure having calibrated the paper for a negative of an 18% gray card, I then let the highlights and shadows burn and block out - this is my working print. I then use a Peterson test print maker to make a test print with 5 different exposures of the same (important) part of the negative by moving the test print maker under the same area for each exposure. Once I've done that for all the areas that need special attention I make the final print. A lot of fannying around but I get exactly what I want - in my view there is no simple way of making a good print but I'm open to suggestions. I use a Darkroom Automation Enlarging meter extensively, lots of test prints, loads of burning and dodging, lots of fun. If I just want a print for no important reason I match the contrast to the neg, use mid tone to control exposure then the highs and lows are controlled by contrast - no fun to be had here at all. This picture was taken on Ilford XP2 Super and printed on 10x12 grade 3 paper, 8 separate areas had to be controlled - Window, altar, wall lights, dome, people etc. Hasselblad 500CM, 3,5/60 Distagon on a small tripod. Spot metered the back of the man's head and placed it on Zone III, I always carry a back with XP2 loaded. I think it's not a good idea to try and get the contrast to control high and low values on a print as it tends to spoil the richness of the mid tones. Sometimes I create a rod for my own back by selecting a particular grade (filter) as I then have to work hard to control the highlights and shadows but I get the mid tones I want. What I mean by being the worst person to be let loose in a darkroom is this. this print was made on Kodak Bromesko grade 3, it's over 20 years old "I think", but exposed and developed in mid June 2016. Why would anyone use 20 year old paper I hear you shout!

 

[pbromaghin]

Reviving an old thread!

I'm about to start darkroom printing for the first time, using the new Ilford Multigrade Delux paper. It will be a while before I start filtering for contrast, but, well, what fun is life if you can't get ahead of yourself?

My enlarger came with a full set of Cibachrome color correction filters for Cibachrome printing that are already cut to fit the filter holder. It has Cyan, Yellow, and Magenta filters with several densities of each. They aren't nicely organized for each grade like the Ilford Multigrade fllters, but will it really be all that hard to figure it out with some experimentation along the lines of the exercise in Post #19?

 

[Pieter12]

You could, by referencing Ilford's color filter equivalent chart: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Contrast-control-for-Ilford-Multigrade.pdf
Or you could make your life much easier and get a set of the proper filters. Or at least 00 and 5 and learn split-grade printing.

 

[albada]

The first question is: What kind of light-source does the enlarger have? The Ilford VC filters you can buy from Freestyle or B&H are for tungsten lamps, so they will give incorrect results with a cold light (florescent) lamp. I suspect Halogen is similar to tungsten, but I'm not sure. Assuming you have tungsten or halogen...
Variable Contrast (VC) is based on two colors: green and blue. Green gives low contrast (00) and blue gives high contrast (5). A mixture gives an intermediate contrast. Multigrade paper is more sensitive to blue than green. Knowing these things, you can estimate the effects of your Cibachrome filters. I suspect light yellow would be close to grade 2 (normal contrast), because it will pass a little more green than blue. Magenta should give high contrast because it passes blue and blocks green. Dark yellow should give low contrast because it passes green and blocks blue.
Have fun experimenting.
Mark Overton

 

[MattKing]

I suspect Halogen is similar to tungsten, but I'm not sure.

One of the things I learned on Photrio is that Halogen bulbs are just hotter than average tungsten bulbs. For the purposes of Ilford Multigrade paper, they are the same.

 

[pbromaghin]

You could, by referencing Ilford's color filter equivalent chart: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Contrast-control-for-Ilford-Multigrade.pdf
Or you could make your life much easier and get a set of the proper filters. Or at least 00 and 5 and learn split-grade printing.

I don't see anything relating to physical filters. I read the whole document before posting to this thread, and all I see are comparisons to enlargers with color heads.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I know this is a really basic and almost stupid question. Can anyone help explain multigrade, specifically Ilford filters to me?

I'm printing on a Beseler 23CIII-XL enlarger with a variable contrast head. This is a link to the head. I'm printing with Ilford MG IV RC Pearl paper at the moment, although I do have some MG Fibre as well. My head has settings for Agfa, Ilford and Kodak papers if IIRC. The Ilford setting goes from green (0) to a dark blue/violet (5). The only instructions I found on Ilfords site say to just set it at 2 and go from there. One of the data sheets also explained that the emulsion on MG paper is sensitive to certain spectrums of light, hence why green vs blue light will help vary the contrast. They offer no other explanation on exactly how or in what situations you would need to use the different filter colors.

If anyone has a link to a basic tutorial I'd really appreciate it. A few hours of searching via google turned up nothing. If anyone can help with a link, or simple explanation of the filters in regard to the specific Ilford paper, I'd really appreciate that too.

not a stupid question;try this first:

 

[pentaxuser]

I am glad that Peter has revived this thread as it prompts me to post the following and then ask a couple of questions

This is what Ilford says :"EXPOSURE New Multigrade RC Deluxe is approx. 1 stop faster than MGIVRC and no longer has a large step change in exposure between grade 3.5 and grade 4, therefore only fine tuning of the exposure is now required when switching between all grades." Here are the Ilford comparisons in speed
ISO Speed (P) NB ISO Paper speeds are not the same as Film ISO speeds, MULTIGRADE RC papers have approximately an equivalent Film ISO of 3-6. The speed of MULTIGRADE papers depends on the filtration used during exposure. (see table below) PRODUCT FILTER 00 0 1 2 3 4 5 None MULTIGRADE RC DELUXE - NEW 240 240 240 240 240 220 220 500 MULTIGRADE IV RC DELUXE 200 200 200 200 200 100 100 500
I am assuming that based on Ilford's statement and figures the new DELUXE paper does not require a doubling of exposure with filters 4-5 which was at least easy to remember

All Ilford has said is that it requires "fine tuning"

So can I ask what has been the experience of those using the new DELUXE paper in terms of what increase in exposure is now required when moving from beyond grade 3.5. It would appear to me if I have understood how paper speeds work, that for MGIV there was no change in exposure until grade 4 when it doubled for both grades 4 and 5 and now there is no change until after grade 4 so all grades from 00 to 4 are the same now and the move to grade 5 is about 10% more only? There is no fixed recommendation from Ilford on the increase in exposure required. It uses the phrase "fine tuning "

However as it was possible to give exposure changes with MGIV does this mean, I wonder, if Ilford will not be giving an increase but simply advising that a doubling is no longer appropriate and it is a question for each user of the new paper to "suck it and see" in terms of what increase in exposure he applies when using the grade 5 filter

As an adjunct I am assuming that this may affect the single and double filtration values Ilford recommends applying to those using colour heads or again will it simply advise users to stick with whatever single and double filtration it advises for MGIV up to grade 4 and fine tune those filtrations for grades 4.5 and 5?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Pieter12]

I don't see anything relating to physical filters. I read the whole document before posting to this thread, and all I see are comparisons to enlargers with color heads.

Third page, 2nd column.

There is also information about compensating for use with a cold light head on the last page.

 

[pbromaghin]

Pieter12, thank you, but as I said, those are enlarger color-head settings.

 

[Pieter12]

Pieter12, thank you, but as I said, those are enlarger color-head settings.

Color-head setting are filter values, and those values should give you a starting point to use your filters.

 

[MattKing]

Pieter12, thank you, but as I said, those are enlarger color-head settings.

Color-head setting are filter values, and those values should give you a starting point to use your filters.

The challenge may be to determine the equivalency between Cibachrome filters and CC filters (the Y and M value filters on the chart).
I don't know if the Cibachrome filters he has have the same designations on them.

 

[Pieter12]

The challenge may be to determine the equivalency between Cibachrome filters and CC filters (the Y and M value filters on the chart).
I don't know if the Cibachrome filters he has have the same designations on them.

My quick research shows Cyan, Magenta and Yellow filters, in .10 increments from .10 to .50, plus a .05 of each. I don't know if the individual filters are labelled, but by combining them they should work for some grades. Much simpler to get an Ilford set of MG filters and skip the headaches, especially for a beginner.

 

[pentaxuser]

[QUOTE="Pieter12, post: 2344442, member: 85702" Much simpler to get an Ilford set of MG filters and skip the headaches, especially for a beginner.[/QUOTE]
I'd agree, Peter and when and if you do, you may need an answer to my question which is yet to be answered

pentaxuser

 

[pbromaghin]

My quick research shows Cyan, Magenta and Yellow filters, in .10 increments from .10 to .50, plus a .05 of each. I don't know if the individual filters are labelled, but by combining them they should work for some grades. Much simpler to get an Ilford set of MG filters and skip the headaches, especially for a beginner.

Ok, now I get what you're saying - use a rough equivalent between the slider positions and the different densities of the filters. That makes a lot of sense.

I am thinking that a test like the one in post #19 would provide a good guide to what each filter will do. I'll probably cut a couple sheets into strips and expose them all to the same part of a reference print exposed with no filter. I'm even welcoming this particular headache for educational purposes.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I am glad that Peter has revived this thread as it prompts me to post the following and then ask a couple of questions

This is what Ilford says :"EXPOSURE New Multigrade RC Deluxe is approx. 1 stop faster than MGIVRC and no longer has a large step change in exposure between grade 3.5 and grade 4, therefore only fine tuning of the exposure is now required when switching between all grades." Here are the Ilford comparisons in speed
ISO Speed (P) NB ISO Paper speeds are not the same as Film ISO speeds, MULTIGRADE RC papers have approximately an equivalent Film ISO of 3-6. The speed of MULTIGRADE papers depends on the filtration used during exposure. (see table below) PRODUCT FILTER 00 0 1 2 3 4 5 None MULTIGRADE RC DELUXE - NEW 240 240 240 240 240 220 220 500 MULTIGRADE IV RC DELUXE 200 200 200 200 200 100 100 500
I am assuming that based on Ilford's statement and figures the new DELUXE paper does not require a doubling of exposure with filters 4-5 which was at least easy to remember

All Ilford has said is that it requires "fine tuning"

So can I ask what has been the experience of those using the new DELUXE paper in terms of what increase in exposure is now required when moving from beyond grade 3.5. It would appear to me if I have understood how paper speeds work, that for MGIV there was no change in exposure until grade 4 when it doubled for both grades 4 and 5 and now there is no change until after grade 4 so all grades from 00 to 4 are the same now and the move to grade 5 is about 10% more only? There is no fixed recommendation from Ilford on the increase in exposure required. It uses the phrase "fine tuning "

However as it was possible to give exposure changes with MGIV does this mean, I wonder, if Ilford will not be giving an increase but simply advising that a doubling is no longer appropriate and it is a question for each user of the new paper to "suck it and see" in terms of what increase in exposure he applies when using the grade 5 filter

As an adjunct I am assuming that this may affect the single and double filtration values Ilford recommends applying to those using colour heads or again will it simply advise users to stick with whatever single and double filtration it advises for MGIV up to grade 4 and fine tune those filtrations for grades 4.5 and 5?

Thanks

pentaxuser

changing from one paper grade to another always requires a fine-tuning in exposure with all papers and all filters!