Pink stain problems with TF-4 + HP5+

[Tumbles]

I started using TF-4 fixer a little while back. I can't say I've had all much experience with it yet. Recently I've been processing a lot of HP5+, and it's been having a lot of trouble getting the pink stain out. At first I tried a second washing, where I let the negatives in water for 5 minutes, and put them through some washing with 5 changes of water. The washing procedure used 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 inversions each change. This didn't really do much of anything.

So I mixed up a batch of TF-3 fixer from stuff I have a hand, and I fixed it a second time. I washed it again with the same procedure, and this did the trick. Every time since I've been fixing HP5+ twice. Has anyone one else experienced this with this combination? I didn't expect I would have to fix HP5+ like it was TMax.

I haven't fixed many films with TF-4 yet. So far, Ilford Ortho 80 hasn't had this issue, while Acros II needed to be fixed twice. One thing that's kind of odd is this didn't happen with the 4x5 version of HP5+. I didn't expect format to make any difference. The formats I've tried so far are are HP5+ in 120 and 4x5, Ortho 80 in 120, and Acros II in 35mm. Other than that, I haven't used TF-4 with any other types of film yet.

 

[koraks]

If the magenta dye bothers you, you could consider soaking the film in a weak sodium carbonate solution for a bit and then thoroughly washing it.

Do you use a staining developer? This tans the gelatin, which will make it harder to wash the emulsion. Not a problem per se, but it might explain why you're having issues getting the magenta dye out. Which is rather persistent to begin with, by the way. Ilford has confirmed this and a little magenta coloration always remains present in the film.

 

[Tumbles]

I've been using FA-1027 with HP5+. For Ilford Ortho 80 it's either FA-1027 or Pyrocat PC. For Acros II it's been only Pyrocat PC. I switched to TF-4 mainly because I use a lot of pyro based developers. Previously I'd been using either Ilford Rapid Fixer or home made Agfa 304 Fixer. Since switching to TF-4 I've seen quite a visible increase in stain formation.

 

[koraks]

Since switching to TF-4 I've seen quite a visible increase in stain formation.

To clarify - are you talking about the pink stain problem here or the brown/tan pyro dye stain? I can see how an alkaline fixer will result in additional overall pyro stain formation, although the usefulness of this is doubtful to put it gently.

 

[Tumbles]

I'm referring to the pink stain. Not the stain from pyrocat. I haven't tried HP5+ with any pyro developers yet.

 

[koraks]

Ok, gotcha, thanks!
Hm, well, I'd give the soda bath a try. And/or a sulfite clearing bath; a 1% solution of sodium sulfite in water. See if that does anything useful.

 

[chuckroast]

I started using TF-4 fixer a little while back. I can't say I've had all much experience with it yet. Recently I've been processing a lot of HP5+, and it's been having a lot of trouble getting the pink stain out. At first I tried a second washing, where I let the negatives in water for 5 minutes, and put them through some washing with 5 changes of water. The washing procedure used 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 inversions each change. This didn't really do much of anything.

So I mixed up a batch of TF-3 fixer from stuff I have a hand, and I fixed it a second time. I washed it again with the same procedure, and this did the trick. Every time since I've been fixing HP5+ twice. Has anyone one else experienced this with this combination? I didn't expect I would have to fix HP5+ like it was TMax.

I haven't fixed many films with TF-4 yet. So far, Ilford Ortho 80 hasn't had this issue, while Acros II needed to be fixed twice. One thing that's kind of odd is this didn't happen with the 4x5 version of HP5+. I didn't expect format to make any difference. The formats I've tried so far are are HP5+ in 120 and 4x5, Ortho 80 in 120, and Acros II in 35mm. Other than that, I haven't used TF-4 with any other types of film yet.

Assuming your fixer is fresh and properly mixed, I've found this removes all traces of dye:

- Fix for a minimum of 5 minutes even if the clearing time is much shorter. 6 minutes for T grain films
- Wash in running water for 25 min. It doesn't have to be running fast, just giving continuous water exchange

Residual stain is almost always from a lack of sufficient washing, in my experience, assuming the fixer is good.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I had issues as well with HP5 (and several other films) fixed in TF4 and TF5 in regards to pinkness. I never had this issue with Ilford Rapid Fix, so I went back to it. There is no measurable difference in pyro stain between these fixers. If there is (after testing, I never saw any) it makes no difference what fixer you use.

 

[pentaxuser]

It might help if you were to show us the negatives so we may see the extent of the pink stain. I wasn't clear from koraks post if the magenta dye in inherent in HP5+ and that a little of this remains at all times. However it seems that Ilford has confirmed this I must say that I have never seen any such dye remaining in the negatives after processing or it appearing in either the fix or wash during processing

Yes I only use Ilford Rapid Fixer. Can there be a link between the formation of a pink dye and the use of TF4. Maybe if that dye is in HP5+ something in TF 4 brings it out? If so I wonder why?

Andrew O'Neill is a big user of HP5+ and pyrocat HD and has found that Ilford Rapid Fixer makes no difference to the Pyrocat HD stain i.e, it does not remove it. He demonstrates this in a video

As a user of HP5+ I wonder if he has ever seen a magenta dye in the negatives?

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

When I have had the pink stains on film I would increase the fixing time and the washing time which together would get rid of the pink stains.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

It might help if you were to show us the negatives so we may see the extent of the pink stain. I wasn't clear from koraks post if the magenta dye in inherent in HP5+ and that a little of this remains at all times. However it seems that Ilford has confirmed this I must say that I have never seen any such dye remaining in the negatives after processing or it appearing in either the fix or wash during processing

Yes I only use Ilford Rapid Fixer. Can there be a link between the formation of a pink dye and the use of TF4. Maybe if that dye is in HP5+ something in TF 4 brings it out? If so I wonder why?

Andrew O'Neill is a big user of HP5+ and pyrocat HD and has found that Ilford Rapid Fixer makes no difference to the Pyrocat HD stain i.e, it does not remove it. He demonstrates this in a video

As a user of HP5+ I wonder if he has ever seen a magenta dye in the negatives?

pentaxuser

Yes, I have but not with fresh fixer. I can get more film through Ilford Rapid Fix, as well. The pinkness doesn't rear its ugly head as soon as when TF4/TF5 are used. Anyways, the OP is using TF4, so the way to avoid the pink blues ... is to not let the fixer because exhausted. A sodium sulfite bath or commercially made HCA after rinsing and before washing, can help. I've also had success with a long soak in water after HCA...

 

[George Collier]

For what it's worth, I used TF5 exclusively with FP4 and HP5+, developed in Rodinal.
I mix the TF5 in distilled water, as they recommend, and use a two bath scheme.
I develop, rinse twice with tap water, then fix in 1st and then 2nd TF5 baths, 2 minutes each.
Then wash in a gravity works washer for 5-7 minutes, or in the summer 10 - 15 fill and dumps, in an overdone version of the Ilford method.
All of this at the same temperature - 72F.
Never any stains with either film.
Might TF5 help?

 

[MattKing]

If you want to read lots about "pink", we have a Photo Engineer Sticky thread on it - 6 pages!
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pink-magenta-stain-not-blue-which-is-a-different-issue.69462/

 

[retina_restoration]

A teaspoon of Sodium sulfite in a liter of water after a post-fix rinse will eliminate any remaining dye

 

[MattKing]

A teaspoon of Sodium sulfite in a liter of water after a post-fix rinse will eliminate any remaining dye

Why does this make me think of Mary Poppins???

 

[Vaughn]

Oh Sodium sulfite, please take these pink blues away...

 

[bluechromis]

Why does this make me think of Mary Poppins???

I have used TF-3 and TF-5 and found that a hypo-clearing agent (HCA) and a good water wash will eliminate the pink stain. Since Sodium Sulfite is the primary ingredient in HCA, this says the same thing as Matt. Technically, one doesn't need an HCA with alkaline/neutral fixers. So, I use HPA only on those films with stain.

Kodak says this in the tech sheet for TMY:
"If your negatives show a magenta (pink) stain after fixing, your fixer may be near exhaustion, or you may not have used a long enough time. If the stain is slight, it will not affect image stability, negative contrast, or printing times. You can remove a slight pink stain with KODAK Hypo Clearing Agent. However, if the stain is pronounced and irregular over the film surface, refix the film in fresh fixer."

It is confusing because a pronounced stain may indicate inadequate fixing. The solution to that is more/better fixation. But mild stains can occur when the film is fixed correctly. So, there is not always a linear relationship between the amount of stain and the degree of fixation. Not referring to anyone on Photrio, but there are folks who assume that since enhanced fixing is the solution to pronounced stain it is the solution for mild stain as well. Some people wind up fixing the crap out of their negatives trying to drive out every trace of stain. But we need to separate the issues of adequate fixing and mild stain removal. First, need to ensure our film has been properly fixed. If it is fixed well yet still has a mild stain, instead of flogging it with more fixer, it may better to use HCA to reduce the stain.

 

[chuckroast]

Why does this make me think of Mary Poppins???

Totally OT: I was yesterday years old when I learned that Chitty Chitty Bang Bang was written by Ian Fleming of James Bond fame ...

 

[koraks]

Some people wind up fixing the crap out of their negatives trying to drive out every trace of stain

Been there, done that - with Kodak TMX. It sort of helped with fresh fixer, but only because of the sulfite, most likely. Not because of the actual thiosulfate content.

 

[MattKing]

I have used TF-3 and TF-5 and found that a hypo-clearing agent (HCA) and a good water wash will eliminate the pink stain. Since Sodium Sulfite is the primary ingredient in HCA, this says the same thing as Matt.

I'm not sure if you missed the Julie Andrews related reference:


And yes - try HCA or another sulfite based wash aid.

 

[pentaxuser]

If you want to read lots about "pink", we have a Photo Engineer Sticky thread on it - 6 pages!
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pink-magenta-stain-not-blue-which-is-a-different-issue.69462/

"Hello pentaxuser. There have been no replies in this thread for over 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead" .

• I know that this is an old thread, but I want to reply to it anyway.

My first reaction when I read your reply and before looking at the thread quoted was to say: Matt I know we disagree at times but what have I done to deserve being given a 6 page thread to read that I suspected was full of irrelevant content and for the rest could probably be more of less summarised by the comments in this thread. Well I didn't have to read far into it to realise I was right but just out masochism I looked at the end and found the above

This could be part of a new double act where your shirt says St Louis Wolves and I have the bat and the bowler hat



pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

You win the prize pentaxuser - you are the first person to note our new "dormant" thread warning tool.
Us moderators have been betting on who would be first - I don't think anyone picked you.
You are welcome to reply to any such thread - that new warning is just there so people don't miss that such threads are that old.

"Hello pentaxuser. There have been no replies in this thread for over 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead" .

• I know that this is an old thread, but I want to reply to it anyway.

 

[bluechromis]

I'm not sure if you missed the Julie Andrews related reference:


And yes - try HCA or another sulfite based wash aid.

Ha, Ha.

 

[bluechromis]

Totally OT: I was yesterday years old when I learned that Chitty Chitty Bang Bang was written by Ian Fleming of James Bond fame ...

That's so funny that Ian Fleming wrote Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. I read he wrote it after suffering a heart attack. He had to write it in longhand because his wife confiscated his typewriter in order to make him rest. He died shortly after finishing it. His James Bond character was inspired by Carey Grant, and Fleming desperately wanted Grant to play Bond in the movies. When Grant turned them down, they got Sean Connery instead, and the rest was history. But what if they had cast Carey Grant in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang instead of Dick Van Dyke?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I started using TF-4 fixer a little while back. I can't say I've had all much experience with it yet. Recently I've been processing a lot of HP5+, and it's been having a lot of trouble getting the pink stain out. At first I tried a second washing, where I let the negatives in water for 5 minutes, and put them through some washing with 5 changes of water. The washing procedure used 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 inversions each change. This didn't really do much of anything.

So I mixed up a batch of TF-3 fixer from stuff I have a hand, and I fixed it a second time. I washed it again with the same procedure, and this did the trick. Every time since I've been fixing HP5+ twice. Has anyone one else experienced this with this combination? I didn't expect I would have to fix HP5+ like it was TMax.

I haven't fixed many films with TF-4 yet. So far, Ilford Ortho 80 hasn't had this issue, while Acros II needed to be fixed twice. One thing that's kind of odd is this didn't happen with the 4x5 version of HP5+. I didn't expect format to make any difference. The formats I've tried so far are are HP5+ in 120 and 4x5, Ortho 80 in 120, and Acros II in 35mm. Other than that, I haven't used TF-4 with any other types of film yet.

I have no issues with a 2-times fix routine.