Photographic Control Spiral

[Sirius Glass]

What is this "trial and error" method? I do not make errors.

 

[Timberwolf]

I use an incident light meter, I meter as how the light falls on the subject, I shoot box speed and develop using very ordinary developers following the manufacturer's recommendations.

I print my negatives myself, I either print using a single VC grade or when required split grade

Most of my work is on 120 and some sheet film.

Modern film is amazing.

Your methods reminded me of something I found somewhere that makes a lot of practical sense to me. I have been searching for the source but can not find it again, so my apologies to that person for the appropriation.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use an incident light meter, I meter as how the light falls on the subject, I shoot box speed and develop using very ordinary developers following the manufacturer's recommendations.

I print my negatives myself, I either print using a single VC grade or when required split grade

Most of my work is on 120 and some sheet film.

Modern film is amazing.

I print my negatives myself, I either print using a single VC grade or when required split grade ... that is what I do and I converge quickly on a good print.

 

[MattKing]

A white haired German guy walks into a saloon and says he has discovered an equation that will change the world. He says the equation is very simple. It's e = mc squared.

The cowboys' reaction is that he's obviously a "wise guy" instead of asking him what he equation means and why he thinks it will change the world

I didn't realize Michelson and Morley were cowboys .

 

[Sirius Glass]

I didn't realize Michelson and Morley were cowboys .

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I think that the "spiral," once explained (more later) makes perfect sense. It's simply a graphic way of representing the process in order and the leading parameter at each step. Expose for the shadows (good advice however you meter!). Develop to a contrast that allows you to make an excellent print (yes, the window is larger with VC papers these days, but still important to get right). Base your print exposure on the highlights (the corollary to exposing film for the shadows; in each case it is the least dense areas that are important). Adjust print contrast to get the contrast you want.

To refine, repeat the process by refining your personal film speed first, then move along to the other steps, in order.

Not the only way to skin a cat, but a perfectly logical and effective one. And one I use and recommend.

@Timberwolf :

I, like many of the other respondents, didn't really appreciate the somewhat coy approach you took to presenting your idea. If you wish to contribute, please do, but please don't play games with us and make us try and guess. It sort of feels like you're toying with us and putting on airs of superiority. If that wasn't your intention, then do try to recognize when you've missed the mark and provide a clear explanation asap (don't wait till post #12 to even hint...).

If you need help, ask and you shall be given. Just keep it straightforward and simple. Be aware that the depth of expertise represented in the collective membership of this forum is enormous and comprehensive. I approach that with humility.

Best,

Doremus

 

[pentaxuser]

I didn't realize Michelson and Morley were cowboys .

That's better than I realised. I don't even realise who those two were until I looked it up. I thought they must be the modern-day equivalent of Abbot and Costello doing a sketch about relativity. When I did look up the Michelson-Morley experiment, Morely is hardly mentioned at all. Was he the side-kick straight man?

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

don't even realise who those two were until I looked it up.

Yes - it worked!
Everyone should use an interferometer at least once in their lives
I think the relative contributions of Michelson and Morley depend on who is writing about them.
I think of them as the "God and Man" of special relativity wink:Kodachrome reference).

 

[Rick A]

I think the OP is making this more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[jnamia]

I think the OP is making this more complicated than it needs to be.

I think everyone who does photography makes it more complicated than it needs to be. it's really not rocket science...

 

[Craig]

What are the axes? Without any data or labeling of those I can't see how this spiral is supposed to be used?

 

[pentaxuser]

Yes - it worked!
Everyone should use an interferometer at least once in their lives
I think the relative contributions of Michelson and Morley depend on who is writing about them.
I think of them as the "God and Man" of special relativity wink:Kodachrome reference).

Thanks Matt. It appears that Michelson was an American born in Germany. Very similar to my German who was Einstein who also became a U.S. citizen. My tale of the saloon as you will have gathered used the same kind of "span the generations" almost surreal sketch as a series on the BBC called Red Dwarf where a bunch of "baddies" like Genghis Khan, Hitler. the KKK etc are challenged by a group of "goodies" like Einstein Elvis Presley, Abraham Lincoln etc Maybe that series never made it across the Atlantic?

Morley seems to have much less publicity in the Michelson-Morley study Maybe he was only British?

pentaxuser

 

[Dali]

I think everyone who does photography makes it more complicated than it needs to be. it's really not rocket science...

This is perfectly right. Sometimes, questions or topics are pretty strange. Sometimes. answers are meant to put newcomers off film photography.

 

[Timberwolf]

I think that the "spiral," once explained (more later) makes perfect sense. It's simply a graphic way of representing the process in order and the leading parameter at each step. Expose for the shadows (good advice however you meter!). Develop to a contrast that allows you to make an excellent print (yes, the window is larger with VC papers these days, but still important to get right). Base your print exposure on the highlights (the corollary to exposing film for the shadows; in each case it is the least dense areas that are important). Adjust print contrast to get the contrast you want.

To refine, repeat the process by refining your personal film speed first, then move along to the other steps, in order.

Not the only way to skin a cat, but a perfectly logical and effective one. And one I use and recommend.

@Timberwolf :

I, like many of the other respondents, didn't really appreciate the somewhat coy approach you took to presenting your idea. If you wish to contribute, please do, but please don't play games with us and make us try and guess. It sort of feels like you're toying with us and putting on airs of superiority. If that wasn't your intention, then do try to recognize when you've missed the mark and provide a clear explanation asap (don't wait till post #12 to even hint...).

If you need help, ask and you shall be given. Just keep it straightforward and simple. Be aware that the depth of expertise represented in the collective membership of this forum is enormous and comprehensive. I approach that with humility.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus:
My "coyness" was in response to the negative and argumentative tone of the first few posts after my original one. I have since learned how to "ignore" those members. I know there is a lot of knowledge to be found here. That's why I joined and also why I was so disappointed with the very first responses I got. I know how to handle it better now. Thank you for your patience with me on the photrio learning curve!

 

[jnamia]

Tough crowd here! I get the idea from looking at the graphic so I think it could be useful to introduce people to photographic processes without significant contrast control in the positive stage (as has been mentioned, not so much for working with VC paper).

This is perfectly right. Sometimes, questions or topics are pretty strange. Sometimes. answers are meant to put newcomers off film photography.

no kidding ! no need for people to give a NEW FORUM MEMBER a hard time. too many harsh comments, more like this there might not be many new forum members and it will be the same old crowd posting the same old same old .. which is too bad, I liked the graphic. it had an outer limits twilight zone feel to it which reminded me what it was like when I first started to do darkroom prints and was overwhelmed ... its too bad people can't remember what it was like when they took their first steps..
its a complicated but once one gets the hang of it, it's simple. ...

 

[Timberwolf]

no kidding ! no need for people to give a NEW FORUM MEMBER a hard time. too many harsh comments, more like this there might not be many new forum members and it will be the same old crowd posting the same old same old .. which is too bad, I liked the graphic. it had an outer limits twilight zone feel to it which reminded me what it was like when I first started to do darkroom prints and was overwhelmed ... its too bad people can't remember what it was like when they took their first steps..
its a complicated but once one gets the hang of it, it's simple. ...

Like learning to ride a bike without training wheels!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Like learning to ride a bike without training wheels!

Good, now talk about photography without the training wheels, now knowing that training wheels are not an aid for learning to use a pogo stick either. Please continue.

 

[Dali]

jnamia, how people were learning photography before the internet? With several books available, recommendations from photo club members, practice and a little logic.

How many years it took you to develop correctly a film a print properly? A decade, a year, less?

There is no silver bullet: Or you understand what you do or you don't. But we now live in a time when everything is a given and using his brain to think about a situation and go for a more appropriate solution needs convoluted explanations. Look at the number of photo sites (or youtube video) explaining how to focus manually a lens? It is hilarious and sad at the same time.

 

[Bob_Brooks]

I'll guess the spiral is trying to say this:

for (int attempt=0; attempt<3; attempt++) {

neg.exposeForShadows();​

neg.devForHighlights();​

print.exposeForHighlights();​

print.contrastForShadows();​

​

}

That means it takes three trips to the field and three attempts in the darkroom to get the photo right.

Is that C++

 

[wiltw]

My take on it...

1. when exposing negative film, give enough exposure to carry some detail in the shadows
2. and develop the negative with sufficient time/temp the produce details within the highlight area
3. then print the neg with sufficient time to register detail in the highlight areas of the print
4. while selecting the contrast range in the paper to present the detail in the shadow areas of the print

...but I do not get why there are multiple spirals around the loop, that makes no sense to me. It is not 'iterative' for a given shot. It only is somewhat iterative if you fail to use box speed, and you then need to adjust your exposure to suit and alter neg development and the printing to suit a different shot on a different piece of film (Zone System does not work on rollfilm unless all shots on the roll use similar adjustment of exposure and processing...otherwise it is not suited to sheet film, and the spiral is not iterative for a single shot, as I said.)

 

[Sirius Glass]

My take on it...

1. when exposing negative film, give enough exposure to carry some detail in the shadows
2. and develop the negative with sufficient time/temp the produce details within the highlight area
3. then print the neg with sufficient time to register detail in the highlight areas of the print
4. while selecting the contrast range in the paper to present the detail in the shadow areas of the print

...but I do not get why there are multiple spirals around the loop, that makes no sense to me. It is not 'iterative' for a given shot. It only is somewhat iterative if you fail to use box speed, and you then need to adjust your exposure to suit and alter neg development and the printing to suit a different shot on a different piece of film (Zone System does not work on rollfilm unless all shots on the roll use similar adjustment of exposure and processing...otherwise it is not suited to sheet film, and the spiral is not iterative for a single shot, as I said.)

I converge on a good photograph and print faster than a spiral, more like a nearly straight line.

 

[mshchem]

I follow the teachings of the Eastman Kodak Co. No offense intended.
Peace.

 

[Bob_Brooks]

@Timberwolf , It's good to have a regimen, but if it becomes too clinical, a person can become just a scientist, in a lab coat, in a dark room. You are not writing procedural code, photography is not an exact science. I'm guessing you just got into photography just as this plan-demic was in full lockdown mode. That's ok too. Through ways the hypnosis thingy and roll up your sleeves and just have fun. I crafted a shot just today with my 5x4. I started at 1pm and just finished up at about 10pm tonight. Made a total of 5 prints on MGRC, MGFB warn tone and MGFB semi matt. And they came out better than I expected. This is a scanned print.

 

[jnamia]

jnamia, how people were learning photography before the internet? With several books available, recommendations from photo club members, practice and a little logic.

How many years it took you to develop correctly a film a print properly? A decade, a year, less?

There is no silver bullet: Or you understand what you do or you don't. But we now live in a time when everything is a given and using his brain to think about a situation and go for a more appropriate solution needs convoluted explanations. Look at the number of photo sites (or youtube video) explaining how to focus manually a lens? It is hilarious and sad at the same time.

it didn't take me a decade to develop film correctly, probably 1 roll ? and printing, IDK I did a test strip and picked the time. I've never really had trouble exposing, processing film or printing .. I guess my formative education on the mothership with Bootsy Collins and George Clinton helped
I agree there's a lot of people trying to get attention on the internet teaching us how to breathe but IDK I think a lot of it is to gain attention from younger people who have adopted the internet and the video fast cut as a way of life. some of it is pretty entertaining though, like that techn0-internet whizkid who couldn't figure out how to flip the tape in the Sony Walkman, whatever, I grew up flipping the tape, and my threshold for entertainment is low. I can't blame them for adopting you tube or Vimeo or ticktock or whatever, online forums tend to be tedious, hard to weed out the cranky.. ( as seen by the cranky and sometimes harsh responses to this thread LOL )
The OP has a point with the spiral, it's about finding one's balance and seeing the interconnectedness between everything. all too often people trying to learn how to expose or develop or print don't realize everything is interconnected .. I've always made it a point to suggest people bracket exposures and bracket development and then print or scan or whatever they like to do for presentation, so they can actually see what the OP is talking about. the whole medium is fluid, and sometimes hard to figure out, and then it's about people's personal taste and somebody telling them they did something (that can't be wrong) wrong, whatever... I have more to day but I better keep it to myself
I think people are too worried about the graphic instead of the message behind the graphic, or is it the message behind the graphic instead of the graphic, IDK. I find the OP's language and graphic to be OK, but I'm not fussy. but to be honest, I think it would have been even better if there were two spirals and they spun around in circles and we all were mesmerized, then there were subliminal messages that were broadcast right into our brains to send the OP some cash, you know like Soupy Sales did before he went on to hang out with Kitty Cariistle .. on black and white 1960s game shows.. what we really need is that song to start playing and a vivid meme of gene gene the dancing machine to start dancing around, much better !

 

[Don_ih]

Frankly, what that spiral represented was easy to see. Anyone who has ever both developed film and made a darkroom print should have found it obvious. It is a decent representation of how one end of the process can inform the other. I don't consider it very practical, though, since, in practice, each click of a shutter is unrepeatable. But if you were taking a studio photo of a vase, you could follow this spiral exactly - take a photo, develop the film, make a print, adjust the camera exposure based on the negative and print, take another photo, adjust development based on the new exposure and the previous negative and print, make a new print with adjusted parameters, and so on -- until you zero in on the completely correct exposure, development, and printing to get exactly what you want.