Pentax: Two new compact film cameras planned - Pentax 17 announced June 2024

[ant!]

Mechanical watchmaking is one of the rare examples of rebirth in a complex pursuit that is a unique combination of art, craft, and engineering. Even fully handmade mechanical watches. Many of these are very expensive, but people want them.

Wouldn't it be nice if there could be a rebirth in making mechanical cameras and lenses, to add some other options along with the Leica rangefinder 35mm film cameras.

With Seiko (watches and lens shutters), there was even an overlap...
But I guess the really expensive watches are pure collector's items (plus some rich people bling), at least all north of a few thousand dollars, so more Leica territory. Then Lomo is Swatch. Pentax could take the Tissot/Seiko/Nomos slice?

 

[bfilm]

With Seiko (watches and lens shutters), there was even an overlap...
But I guess the really expensive watches are pure collector's items (plus some rich people bling), at least all north of a few thousand dollars, so more Leica territory. Then Lomo is Swatch. Pentax could take the Tissot/Seiko/Nomos slice?

Yes, and I think Leica has always worked with a German clockmaker or watchmaker for the mechanical shutter mechanism in their rangefinder cameras.

An old Leica brochure for the new MP film camera described:

"The principle behind the LEICA MP's cloth focal plane shutter goes directly back to Oskar Barnack's invention in 1913. At its heart are two curtains made of rubberized cotton cloth, a material that is both lightproof and exceptionally durable and flexible. The width of the slit -- and thus the shutter speed -- is controlled purely mechanically using high precision levers and cams, most of which are made of hardened, ground and polished steel. Slow shutter speeds are controlled by a barely audible arrest mechanism, which for decades has been made for Leica lovingly and with great attention to detail by a manufacturer in the Black Forest. The low initial tension and the relatively slow movement of the two shutter curtains that results from this make the camera exceptionally quiet, while the shutter release is gentle and free of vibration."

I like the Seiko analogy for Pentax. That is along my lines of thinking. If the Leica rangefinder film cameras are USD 5,700, I think it would be pretty good if Pentax could make a nice SLR film camera for USD 1,000-1,500. Leica can be Grand-Seiko (or perhaps we choose a German watchmaker for the analogy).

 

[bfilm]

Of course, Leica are themselves a watchmaker now! Although, I don't think they have their own manufacture.

But I would prefer Dornblüth & Sohn.

 

[bfilm]

I expect that if Pentax make it as far as a new mechanical SLR, they will have to try and convince Seiko or Copal to manufacture an appropriate mechanical shutter mechanism again.

 

[armadsen]

Teac manufacture cassette decks, probably as nice as they think necessary today.

My understanding is that there’s only a single Chinese manufacturer making a single (not great) cassette transport now, and any cassette deck you buy, from any manufacturer, is using that. It’s not an altogether dissimilar situation as with film cameras, except there’s no Leica equivalent for tape decks, just the equivalent of cheap plastic reusable disposable film cameras.

 

[ant!]

Of course, Leica are themselves a watchmaker now! Although, I don't think they have their own manufacture.

But I would prefer Dornblüth & Sohn.

Didn't know this one, not bad looking! But of course, both because of the Dresden camera industry history and because I was born in Dresden a long time ago: Glashütte, the village just a few steps outside Dresden. And there, I like Nomos' design and prices a bit better then some of the other players.
Zeiss Ikon (mainly Dresden) bought shutters from Deckel (compur etc, in Bavaria) and Gauthier (e.g. prontor, this one is actually in the Black Forrest and might be the one, or related to, the one which you mention for Leica), and owned shares of both, but I don't know about links to the local Glashütte watchmakers. But after WW2, the Dresden camera industry was cut off from these sources and focused on (in-house?) final plane shutters instead of leaf shutters...

 

[mshchem]

Of course, Leica are themselves a watchmaker now! Although, I don't think they have their own manufacture.

But I would prefer Dornblüth & Sohn.

Is this

Of course, Leica are themselves a watchmaker now! Although, I don't think they have their own manufacture.

But I would prefer Dornblüth & Sohn.

Is this who makes the Leica watches?

 

[bfilm]

Is this who makes the Leica watches?

No, Dornblüth & Sohn are a very small, artisanal, largely handmade watchmaker. The 2010 calibers are completely in-house manual-winding movements. Some of the others are rebuilt movements.

Leica mentions about their watches: "manufactured almost entirely in Lehmann Präzision's partner workshop in Germany."

 

[bfilm]

My understanding is that there’s only a single Chinese manufacturer making a single (not great) cassette transport now, and any cassette deck you buy, from any manufacturer, is using that. It’s not an altogether dissimilar situation as with film cameras, except there’s no Leica equivalent for tape decks, just the equivalent of cheap plastic reusable disposable film cameras.

It could be. I figured that since Teac is a major manufacturer, that there was a chance they make their own, but maybe not. I imagine if the demand was there for a high-grade cassette deck that someone could make it, like is being done again with 1/4", 1/2", and 1" tape machines in France and Germany.

 

[bfilm]

Didn't know this one, not bad looking! But of course, both because of the Dresden camera industry history and because I was born in Dresden a long time ago: Glashütte, the village just a few steps outside Dresden. And there, I like Nomos' design and prices a bit better then some of the other players.
Zeiss Ikon (mainly Dresden) bought shutters from Deckel (compur etc, in Bavaria) and Gauthier (e.g. prontor, this one is actually in the Black Forrest and might be the one, or related to, the one which you mention for Leica), and owned shares of both, but I don't know about links to the local Glashütte watchmakers. But after WW2, the Dresden camera industry was cut off from these sources and focused on (in-house?) final plane shutters instead of leaf shutters...

Yes, the Glashütte watchmaking heritage is quite impressive.

Nomos does make some interesting watches.

And of course there are some of the legendary makers there, like A. Lange & Söhne and Moritz Grossmann, who would probably have to be classed even above Leica in an analogy. Maybe Linhof or the old Franke & Heidecke Rolleiflex would be the closest analogy in cameras.

Wempe also do some interesting watches in their in-house manufacture and are one of the last makers of a real mechanical marine chronometer, for around USD 40,000.

 

[bfilm]

Get equipped with Pentax.

It's not nice to misquote people.

I can only guess you are referencing that I have mentioned Leica many times. Well, they are the only one (along with Linhof) with which to compare new film cameras.

Pentax are a nice camera to equip oneself with, too. Secondhand and soon new options once again.

 

[Agulliver]

I don't understand the comparison with cassette decks -- these are still made. Teac manufacture cassette decks, probably as nice as they think necessary today. But I don't doubt that they could make a higher-grade model if they wanted -- they do, after all, also manufacture USD 38,000 CD players with drives that look like this. I am sure other of the old makers could make cassette decks, if there was an interest.

I imagine the abandonment of a new super 8 camera was more that it was going to be more expensive than they wanted rather than that they couldn't do it, but I don't have direct knowledge of the specific example you mention.

I think cost is the issue a lot of the time. Surely capabilities could be brought back or rediscovered if people thought it worthwhile. I think there is just a different mentality today, not usually for the better, about what products are valued and what people expect.

I saw a good quote once from someone about photomultiplier tube drum scanners: "Drum scanning is one of those old gems built in the days where engineers where given free reign to solve problems to the best of their abilities - that's why it's still unbeatable (quality wise) today." And it is true. The last drum scanners are from an era in publishing that has not been surpassed and represented a high point (for books and magazines that include photography) -- when publications were photography with transparency film, scanning with PMT drum scanners, and printing with offset lithography or gravure. People don't value that character and quality in the same way anymore.

The comparison with cassette decks.....reasonably recent technology which requires an intricate, complex mechanical system to do it well. The reason TEAC (who don't actually manufacture anything, they buy in parts) produce a piece of crap cassette deck is because the knowledge and expertise to do better has gone. they are the last major name standing and produce something with a bought in cheap-o-crap transport mechanism made by Tanashin in China because they (and another company who copies them) are the last standing in manufacture of cassette transports. The wow and flutter are woeful even compared to an entry level deck of the late 70s. All the knowledge that went into producing the machines that followed has gone. the knowledge that culminated in late 90s and early 2000s entry level $140 decks performing better than the high end decks of the early 80s. It's gone. Yamaha, who were the last to manufacture a truly decent deck as late as 2004 did look into bringing back their last model some 15 years later. And they concluded that it could not be done.

The point is, despite some wishing to paint the Pentax engineers as either liars or incompetent....it is not at all without precedent for a once ubiquitous product manufactured by dozens of companies to become nigh on impossible to recreate just twenty years later. Yes, economics are involved. Nobody is claiming that it is actually impossible to make a new Pentax K1000 or whatever. But there are real issues with younger engineers brought up on 3D computer models not fully understanding a 2D paper drawing. They're simply not taught any more....at least not at school level, we go straight to 3D on the computer. So I do actually believe it when Mr. Suzuki says in his videos that the young engineers had trouble understanding how the mechanism worked. An older engineer could visualise the parts moving. They could not.

Same reason nobody makes a half way decent cassette deck these days. There's sufficient interest to sell a few thousand a year. Sankyo with their idea to doa new super 8 camera about 20 years ago was similar, the blueprints and even a stash of parts wasn't sufficient. They couldn't even put a prototype together. Just look at the new Kodak branded super 8 camera (actually manufactured for them by a small engineering company) has been beset by problems and the estimated price has gone up fivefold since it was announced. And I believe it's still not actually on sale.


Watches are a good comparison too, small complex mechanisms. Once very common, now only a few boutique organisations can make them. But the difference there is that there's always been a small market for expensive, mechanical watches. It never completely died. I guess a bit like Leica soldiering on at the high end and Nikon theoretically offering a film SLR until recently.

 

[bfilm]

The comparison with cassette decks.....reasonably recent technology which requires an intricate, complex mechanical system to do it well. The reason TEAC (who don't actually manufacture anything, they buy in parts) produce a piece of crap cassette deck is because the knowledge and expertise to do better has gone. they are the last major name standing and produce something with a bought in cheap-o-crap transport mechanism made by Tanashin in China because they (and another company who copies them) are the last standing in manufacture of cassette transports. The wow and flutter are woeful even compared to an entry level deck of the late 70s. All the knowledge that went into producing the machines that followed has gone. the knowledge that culminated in late 90s and early 2000s entry level $140 decks performing better than the high end decks of the early 80s. It's gone. Yamaha, who were the last to manufacture a truly decent deck as late as 2004 did look into bringing back their last model some 15 years later. And they concluded that it could not be done.

The point is, despite some wishing to paint the Pentax engineers as either liars or incompetent....it is not at all without precedent for a once ubiquitous product manufactured by dozens of companies to become nigh on impossible to recreate just twenty years later. Yes, economics are involved. Nobody is claiming that it is actually impossible to make a new Pentax K1000 or whatever. But there are real issues with younger engineers brought up on 3D computer models not fully understanding a 2D paper drawing. They're simply not taught any more....at least not at school level, we go straight to 3D on the computer. So I do actually believe it when Mr. Suzuki says in his videos that the young engineers had trouble understanding how the mechanism worked. An older engineer could visualise the parts moving. They could not.

Same reason nobody makes a half way decent cassette deck these days. There's sufficient interest to sell a few thousand a year. Sankyo with their idea to doa new super 8 camera about 20 years ago was similar, the blueprints and even a stash of parts wasn't sufficient. They couldn't even put a prototype together. Just look at the new Kodak branded super 8 camera (actually manufactured for them by a small engineering company) has been beset by problems and the estimated price has gone up fivefold since it was announced. And I believe it's still not actually on sale.


Watches are a good comparison too, small complex mechanisms. Once very common, now only a few boutique organisations can make them. But the difference there is that there's always been a small market for expensive, mechanical watches. It never completely died. I guess a bit like Leica soldiering on at the high end and Nikon theoretically offering a film SLR until recently.

I looked into this a little more, and it appears that even Tanashin no longer make cassette mechanisms, but that a handful of companies in China produce copies of their mechanism nowadays.

I still think it would be possible to make nice cassette mechanisms again if there was enough interest. Look what Analog Audio Design in France and Ballfinger in Germany are doing today with 1/4", 1'2" and 1" tape machines.

"As the highest quality medium for analog recording and playback, magnetic tape technology has not only returned: after more than 30 years during which the technology was almost completely displaced by digital technology, it is now receiving the appreciation it deserves thanks to a small group of enthusiasts who are keeping it alive."

Mechanical watchmaking was thought to be in real danger a few decades ago, too, and that is when it could be said that "only a few boutique organisations [could] make them", along with Rolex (who are perhaps a good analogy for Leica in photography), but today there are dozens of workshops making in-house movements. And even some truly handmade watchmakers, a pursuit brought back perhaps by George Daniels and Derek Pratt. Just as an aside, I think some of the pocket watches that Derek Pratt made in Switzerland in the 1980s for old Danish watchmaker Urban Jürgensen are some of the most beautiful watches in history, like these.

 

[bfilm]

Perhaps Zeiss, inspired by the return to film cameras by Pentax, could consider making film cameras again. Or like they last did, partnering with someone to have them made.

The last film camera from Zeiss was the Ikon "ZM" rangefinder film camera, from 2005-2012, when so many people were in the midst of switching to digital. I wonder what kind of success the same or a similar camera could have today amidst the regrowth of film use. I know this camera enjoys strong popularity on the secondhand market. Most of the range of lenses introduced with this camera are still available new. I don't know if their original partner for this camera, Cosina, will still make cameras, though, or if they focus solely on lenses nowadays.

 

[logan2z]

It looks like this might be getting close...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/pentax-film-camera-project-livestream

 

[logan2z]

Yes, the Glashütte watchmaking heritage is quite impressive.

Nomos does make some interesting watches.

And of course there are some of the legendary makers there, like A. Lange & Söhne and Moritz Grossmann, who would probably have to be classed even above Leica in an analogy. Maybe Linhof or the old Franke & Heidecke Rolleiflex would be the closest analogy in cameras.

Wempe also do some interesting watches in their in-house manufacture and are one of the last makers of a real mechanical marine chronometer, for around USD 40,000.

Don't forget about Glashütte Original.

 

[bfilm]

Don't forget about Glashütte Original.

Right, it was not a comprehensive list. There are quite a few watchmakers there.

 

[Thwyllo]

I'll be glad when this thing finally surfaces so that we can move on. I'm still not convinced that, with all the other manufacturers who are currently making brand new product, including Lomography and others, there's a business case for this thing but we shall see. Personally I think there's enough legacy kit out there, either still working happily or just in need of some minor TLC, to keep people like me going (not that I need anymore cameras currently!!).

 

[Thwyllo]

....forgot to say, apparently Ricoh are making some kind of formal announcement on their YouTube channel at 5:00 a.m. Japanese time on June 15th. Be there or be square....

 

[bfilm]

I'll be glad when this thing finally surfaces so that we can move on. I'm still not convinced that, with all the other manufacturers who are currently making brand new product, including Lomography and others, there's a business case for this thing but we shall see. Personally I think there's enough legacy kit out there, either still working happily or just in need of some minor TLC, to keep people like me going (not that I need anymore cameras currently!!).

As I have mentioned, I think Pentax needs to do something more firmly in-between Lomography and Leica, and they might get there eventually if they are able to continue their return to film cameras. But like you say, we will see.

 

[Thwyllo]

As I have mentioned, I think Pentax needs to do something more firmly in-between Lomography and Leica, and they might get there eventually if they are able to continue their return to film cameras. But like you say, we will see.

I'm just not sure the market is there. There is a growing clutch of instant film cameras, that compare favourably in price with the now very significant cost of buying and developing film and prints, and Lomography's product range runs from large format to 110, with several art lenses costing several hundred ££/€€/$$, so it's not clear what Ricoh is planning to do with what seems to be a fixed lens half frame compact. I truly believe that part of their problem is that, despite being a global company, they are very Japan-centric and a lot of what they do is driven by the market there which is very different than the rest of the world.

I'm just not sure the world is ready for, or needs, another relatively unsophisticated film camera, especially when it's not clear how much longer this fad - and much of it is a social media fad - can continue. Just as with Pentax nailing its colours firmly to the DSLR mast, it could turn out to be a very risky strategy.

 

[MFstooges]

....forgot to say, apparently Ricoh are making some kind of formal announcement on their YouTube channel at 5:00 a.m. Japanese time on June 15th. Be there or be square....

I'd rather be square than be vertical.
Seriously, I'll be interested if Pentax makes SLR in the format that no SLR manufacturers care : 24mm X 24mm. It will not get 72 exposures but it will get 50 which is still a lot. Besides, nobody from the smartphone generation have time to wait for 72 exposures to finish.
And that could be a really good excuse for me to create an Instagram account.

 

[bfilm]

I'm just not sure the market is there. There is a growing clutch of instant film cameras, that compare favourably in price with the now very significant cost of buying and developing film and prints, and Lomography's product range runs from large format to 110, with several art lenses costing several hundred ££/€€/$$, so it's not clear what Ricoh is planning to do with what seems to be a fixed lens half frame compact. I truly believe that part of their problem is that, despite being a global company, they are very Japan-centric and a lot of what they do is driven by the market there which is very different than the rest of the world.

I'm just not sure the world is ready for, or needs, another relatively unsophisticated film camera, especially when it's not clear how much longer this fad - and much of it is a social media fad - can continue. Just as with Pentax nailing its colours firmly to the DSLR mast, it could turn out to be a very risky strategy.

That's why I think a good medium-grade 35mm film camera is what is needed. Whether it is a compact camera or an SLR, I think if Pentax could provide something of classic type and good quality (no gimmicks or modern features), that is what would be a better long-term success. The regrowth in film will only be sustained by people who have an interest in using film as more than a fad. Even with many old cameras out there, I think there are a lot of people who would like a new condition film camera.

 

[Thwyllo]

I'd rather be square than be vertical.
Seriously, I'll be interested if Pentax makes SLR in the format that no SLR manufacturers care : 24mm X 24mm. It will not get 72 exposures but it will get 50 which is still a lot. Besides, nobody from the smartphone generation have time to wait for 72 exposures to finish.
And that could be a really good excuse for me to create an Instagram account.

It's a good point - on the one hand I'm sure Pentax wants to be seen to offer value for money, hence the half frame thing which I'm really not a fan of, But as you say the Instagram generation, who will be their biggest audience, want results yesterday, not when they've taken 72 frames and had the film developed and scanned or printed.

 

[Disconnekt]

Pentax posted a video earlier today of TKO talking about the feedack they've been recieving: