Pentax: Two new compact film cameras planned - Pentax 17 announced June 2024

[Cholentpot]

I agree with you. I believe Pentax had done their study and sees the opportunity in a certain group. This group don't have shared interest with me other than the film media.
The marketing power of some 'influencers' on this demography is crazy. Just because few celebs were posting their pictures holding Contax pocket camera the followers instantly jumped on the secondary market. In another instance some influencers praised the 2000's pocket digicam CCD sensor film like image and the followers instantly jumped on the secondary market. So Pentax must be thinking "why not create the real film camera to cater for this folks?"

Pentax is aiming at a market that's 40 years or more younger than most of the demographic on here. What do you sell to a 16 year old? Chances are the 20 year old person already can get the highest quality photo they'll ever want or need out of their phone. With AI and algorithms they can imitate just about any camera or lens reasonably enough. They want the experience.

 

[Axelwik]

Dumb question : so do people who use this camera mostly use it for portraiture? I can't imagine using this for my hiking camera

Think about it: how do most people take pictures with their cell phones; portrait orientation or landscape? The old half frame cameras such as the Olympus Pen were ahead of their time!

And unless the camera has up/down film transport it has to be in portrait orientation. Kills two birds with one stone - portrait orientation is what most young people are used to, and with half frame you get twice as many photos per roll.

 

[MFstooges]

Think about it: how do most people take pictures with their cell phones; portrait orientation or landscape? The old half frame cameras such as the Olympus Pen were ahead of their time!

And unless the camera has up/down film transport it has to be in portrait orientation. Kills two birds with one stone - portrait orientation is what most young people are used to, and with half frame you get twice as many photos per roll.

yes sir you can read my later posts

 

[Axelwik]

If this mediocre looking concept is to lure in the young, then I think this Pentax will prove a complete failure, a short lived wannabe, sold by hype and marketing, ultimately failed by product itself. The more I read about it, the more puzzled I become.

Yes, I am perplexed about the excitement given what is being shown, from form factor, to design and features. It's aching to Lomo talking about unorthodox powers supported by total nonsense. But while Lomo has become rather successful, it was a well thought out long term campaign, this appears to be lacking, the hype is mainly based on "it's film you know, film is back, film is here to stay" rather than "we've got something special for you, try it, you will have hard time letting it go". This is not novelty it would need to have at least a short term chance of a run to a podium. It also appears to be designed by those who never successfully designed much let alone a film camera, hardly had any training in industrial aesthetics, and appear to be riding on a Pentax train ... without a valid ticket.

What to me would be better, is deliver a product actually much closer to a modernised replica of some older body, which alone would help marketing showing how old blends with new, with perhaps an easy digital/film changeover. This is doable, and if it had quality output, it would likely attract many from all walks of life, and have potential of becoming true fusion of old and modern.

I disagree.

Even a seasoned film photographer might like to have a new film camera that's pocketable and easy to take almost anywhere (and consumes only 1/2 the film). I include myself in this category.

There are tons of good reliable options when it comes to traditional 35mm film cameras - why in the world would Pentax want to compete with that? Now that would be a recipe for failure!

Not so many options in terms of relatively new and reliable half frame, convenient, and compact film cameras. Most half frame cameras are in their 60s and older, and were designed for the consumer market. Sure, they can be found on the used market (I love the old Olympus Pen), but they're a crap shoot in terms of reliability 60 years later.

And with some of the newer film emulsions combined with a decent lens (hopefully the lens is decent), image quality could be pretty good.

Might not appeal to you and it won't to everyone, but I suspect it will appeal to many. I sure hope so, and wish them great success.

 

[xkaes]

Even a seasoned film photographer might like to have a new film camera that's pocketable and easy to take almost anywhere (and consumes only 1/2 the film). I include myself in this category.

If there plan was "pocketable", this one isn't it -- unless you're Captain Kangaroo. They could have easily made it half the size.

 

[Axelwik]

If there plan was "pocketable", this one isn't it -- unless you're Captain Kangaroo. They could have easily made it half the size.

The camera doesn't look any bigger than a Leica, which I consider very pocketable with a collapsible or pancake lens. You must have small pockets.

 

[Dwight Anderson]

If there plan was "pocketable", this one isn't it -- unless you're Captain Kangaroo. They could have easily made it half the size.

Based on the estimated measurements I posted on the previous page the camera is 116mm wide, a mere 6mm wider than a Kodak H35. The person holding the camera has small hands.

I confirmed that measurement by downloading the photo and counting pixels.

 

[MattKing]

If there plan was "pocketable", this one isn't it -- unless you're Captain Kangaroo.

If you know who Captain Kangaroo is, you may not be in the target market.

 

[xkaes]

A Leica in a pocket. That's the laugh of the day. An Olympus XA? Sure! But a half-frame Olympus XA -- that would be even smaller.

As already mentioned, people already have tiny phones that take "good enough" photos. Who's going to buy a half-frame bigger than a H35? That's HUGE for what it does.

My glove size if Large, and I want my half-frames to be small. Otherwise, I can go full-frame -- and not have to screw around with flipping the camera.

And if you prefer large half-frame cameras, there's already a wide selection -- some in very strange bodies, to boot.

 

[Pioneer]

I just have to keep this post in my favorites so I can refer back to it in 6 to 12 months when we know how successful, or not successful, this camera offering actually turns out.

 

[pbromaghin]

The half-frame cameras of the past were made in the era of high quality Nikon, Pentax, Canon, Minolta, etc. 35mm cameras. They were expected to act somewhat like those 35mm. These will NOT be compared to those half-frames - half-frames that some people on here love. The target market for this camera doesn't even know those exist(ed). They will be compared with iPhones for cool factor.

 

[bfilm]

The reasoning that Pentax and many others seem to be using, that this camera needs to be similar to a smartphone is what I think is completely wrong. I think the half-frame camera marketed like using a smartphone is a big mistake. People who are obsessed with smartphone imaging (one really can't call it photography) don't care at all about film.

The young people who want to use film want to use it because it is different from the modern digital technologies. Similarity to the modern digital technologies will be a negative point for a new film camera. Pentax should have just made a nice quality classic 35mm format compact camera. This would appeal to almost everyone instead of being some weird niche product.

I also can't imagine it would really have been harder to start with a film SLR camera. Pentax have all of their records and design plans for decades of film SLR cameras as well as still being active in making SLR bodies, prisms, mirror assemblies, and shutters. They even designed the new film advance mechanism based on an SLR camera.

 

[xkaes]

They will be compared with iPhones for cool factor.

That Pentax 17 is KOOL??? Sure can't beat the Kickelodeon PhotoBlaster in the KOOL department.

 

[xkaes]

I also can't imagine it would really have been harder to start with a film SLR camera. They have all of their records and design plans for decades of film SLR cameras as well as still being active in making SLR bodies, prisms, mirror assemblies, and shutters. They even designed the new film advance based on an SLR camera.

And SLR -- even a half-frame with a fixed lens-- would be bigger, heavier, costlier, etc. etc.

 

[bfilm]

And SLR -- even a half-frame with a fixed lens-- would be bigger, heavier, costlier, etc. etc.

Yes, and I know supposedly they have done their research, but I have not seen a single request for a camera like they are planning to offer. Every desire I have seen from people is for an SLR camera. People want a new LX or MX or 645 or 67. I have not seen a single person say they want a new compact camera and certainly not a half-frame marketed for use like a smartphone.

And I don't know what it is like in Japan, but many labs in America have a surcharge for scanning half-frame that negates much of the supposed and hyped cost savings of using half-frame.

I think an SLR would have been better, but I am okay with them starting with a compact camera, but I definitely think it should have been a classic type full-35mm-format camera. I think that would give them a much stronger start. I hope such a model follows quite quickly after this first one--supposedly they are introducing two compact cameras this year.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Someone on Reddit estimated the size based on the 40.5mm filter, it's a small camera. 116x70, a bit smaller than my Ikonta 35. A handgrip on a camera that size isn't a bad idea.

I performed a similar analysis and reached the same conclusion regarding the camera's dimensions. That puts it at the same size as the highly esteemed Ricoh GR1. The lack of a built-in power winder and actuating lens assembly suggests this will be an extremely long-lived and potentially easily serviceable camera.

A face-on photo obscures the amount the lens/focusing assembly juts out from the front. This is the single most important factor when determining 'pocketability'. If it is relatively flush with the front plate, like a half-frame Olympus Pen or original Canon Demi, it will be eminently pocketable. The rest of the functionality is presumably baked into the top dial(s). Full manual, aperture priority, and full program modes would be a trifecta especially if paired with exposure compensation but wouldn't necessarily expect all of them in this iteration of the camera.

The real wildcard is the viewfinder and has the potential to make or break the shooting experience. I'd posit that most 'historical' cameras of this class, 35mm or half-frame, don't offer a particularly spectacular optical viewfinder. Something with 1x magnification and 100% coverage would be outstanding even if it lacked dynamic parallax correction or a fancy LED readout. Based on the pixel count in the sample image, the viewfinder seems similar to what was found in some late model P&S cameras from the turn of the last century. Think Nikon FunTouch 6 or Canon Sure Shot Owl.

 

[xkaes]

Will have to see what the "Pentax 18" turns out to be. Meanwhile I'll continue to use my half-frame 35mm auto-focusing SLR with 35-105mm (equivalent) zoom lens, a built-in flash, and only 4" wide -- the Samurai Z.

 

[Agulliver]

If there plan was "pocketable", this one isn't it -- unless you're Captain Kangaroo. They could have easily made it half the size.

It's more pocketable than my Folding Pocket Kodak.

As far as I can tell, "the kids" are pocketing ever larger smartphones which are themselves enclosed in hefty cases. Pockets are getting larger again and especially the young women are carrying little bags/pouches for their phones plus other bits and bobs. This camera should go fine with such accessories. As for the young gentlemen, maybe they will avail themselves of a manbag or a carry strap. I don't see this camera as being especially large. It doesn't seem much bigger than the recent Kodak branded half frame camera, which seems to have sold very well and from which I often see photos posted on social media.

The reasoning that Pentax and many others seem to be using, that this camera needs to be similar to a smartphone is what I think is completely wrong. I think the half-frame camera marketed like using a smartphone is a big mistake. People who are obsessed with smartphone imaging (one really can't call it photography) don't care at all about film.

The young people who want to use film want to use it because it is different from the modern digital technologies. Similarity to the modern digital technologies will be a negative point for a new film camera. Pentax should have just made a nice quality classic 35mm format compact camera. This would appeal to almost everyone instead of being some weird niche product.

I also can't imagine it would really have been harder to start with a film SLR camera. Pentax have all of their records and design plans for decades of film SLR cameras as well as still being active in making SLR bodies, prisms, mirror assemblies, and shutters. They even designed the new film advance mechanism based on an SLR camera.

I honestly think you're barking completely up the wrong tree. First off, starting off with an SLR would have killed the project dead. An SLR is far more difficult to accomplish than this new half frame P&S, and would have cost so much that almost nobody would have bought it. Certainly not the young audience Pentax are chasing. The entire raison d'etre for this project is to help the youngsters by providing them with something *they* can buy and enjoy.

Do I really need to say it again. It. Is. Not. Aimed. At. Us. At. All.

These young people are used to shooting in portrait/vertical mode. I don't understand why myself. When I shoot with my phone (and it is photography, no need for snobbery), I use landscape mode 9 times out of 10. But the young folk do it differently. Who am I to tell them they are objectively "wrong"? And it's not aimed at those who are "obsessed" with phone photography. It's aimed at those who are looking to buy a film camera, and who are hitherto only familiar with phone photography. Most people under about 25 have never used a camera of any description that wasn't contained within a phone.

A "weird niche product" fills a niche. Pentax have done a lot of research and I assume that niche is sufficiently large to recoup the cost of developing and producing the Pentax 17. If it's a success, by whatever definition Pentax have assigned to it, then the next camera will probably be a more standard compact P&S 35mm camera. And after that, in a few years, we may see a SLR. From what they've been saying on social media (and they are engaging with young people and old farts alike), they aren't entirely ruling out medium format in the more distant future. But it all depends on the road map they have shared working out.


Finally, Pentax have made it abundantly clear that having the blueprints was of little help because the current engineering staff couldn't even understand them. Hence they engaged the services of long retired Pentax engineers to help them. They literally don't understand mechanical cameras - which has long been one of the biggest hurdles to production of a decent new film camera. Perhaps this was the last chance to work with the old engineers who worked in the 70s and 80s. But having the designs really was of minimal help on its own. Sankyo found exactly the same twenty years ago when they looked briefly at making a new super 8 movie camera and dismissed it almost immediately as impossible despite having blueprints and even a cache of parts from the 70s.

 

[brbo]

I want a new compact camera. Half-frame? Great!

I have not seen a single person say they want a new compact camera and certainly not a half-frame marketed for use like a smartphone.

Sure you have (now)!

I think an SLR would have been better, but I am okay with them starting with a compact camera, but I definitely think it should have been a classic type full-35mm-format camera. I think that would give them a much stronger start. I hope such a model follows quite quickly after this first one--supposedly they are introducing two compact cameras this year.

I wonder how SLR would work better for them? There are a LOT of SLRs still floating around, they sell for peanuts, they just work(tm) and most are light years ahead (regarding features and build quality) of what Pentax can now come up within reasonable time for reasonable money.

On the other hand, there are used film compact cameras with great lenses selling in the 1000 EUR bracket, with not so great electronics and not so great build dying left and right. And before you say that there is no shortage of compact cameras that still sell for 20 EUR, sure, but there is a reason why they are cheap and collecting dust (not great lenses, big, ugly, lacking features...). Or should I say, there is a reason, beyond instagram cult status, why some compact cameras are expensive. People do like using them and appreciate results they give.

 

[Agulliver]

@brbo Great points.

There are reasons why the likes of the Olympus Mju series are selling for high hundreds when known to be fully working. Gods, I bought a Mju2 with a nice zoom from a charity shop last year for £15 because they thought it was broken....turned out it worked but with a sluggish zoom and minor light leak around the seal surrounding the lens...used it twice....sold it, clearly mentioning the faults and showing examples of photos I'd shot with it, for £270.

The 90s and early 2000s compacts were often so sophisticated that they are failing. Hence the known good ones are fetching silly money because that's what the younger buyers want - at least at first. There's also a considerable amount of research which suggests that a manual winding lever is preferred for two reasons....firstly the satisfaction one feels when cocking the lever after each shot, ands econdly it demonstrates to those around you that without a doubt you are shooting film. Count me as an old or at least middle aged fart, and I get people talking to me because they've seen my winding on a manual camera.

And yes...if I want a SLR from the 60s up to the 2000s....there are loads around especially if I'm not particularly stuck on one brand or model. There may come a time when a mechanical or electronic SLR is profitable but that time is emphatically not now when I can go on eBay, charity shop or vintage shop and pick up a decent, working SLR with at least one lens for £50. Buy something that takes a popular lens mount with several brands of lens about (or which can take Tamron Adaptall lenses) and you're laughing.

 

[Cholentpot]

It's more pocketable than my Folding Pocket Kodak.

As far as I can tell, "the kids" are pocketing ever larger smartphones which are themselves enclosed in hefty cases. Pockets are getting larger again and especially the young women are carrying little bags/pouches for their phones plus other bits and bobs. This camera should go fine with such accessories. As for the young gentlemen, maybe they will avail themselves of a manbag or a carry strap. I don't see this camera as being especially large. It doesn't seem much bigger than the recent Kodak branded half frame camera, which seems to have sold very well and from which I often see photos posted on social media.



I honestly think you're barking completely up the wrong tree. First off, starting off with an SLR would have killed the project dead. An SLR is far more difficult to accomplish than this new half frame P&S, and would have cost so much that almost nobody would have bought it. Certainly not the young audience Pentax are chasing. The entire raison d'etre for this project is to help the youngsters by providing them with something *they* can buy and enjoy.

Do I really need to say it again. It. Is. Not. Aimed. At. Us. At. All.

These young people are used to shooting in portrait/vertical mode. I don't understand why myself. When I shoot with my phone (and it is photography, no need for snobbery), I use landscape mode 9 times out of 10. But the young folk do it differently. Who am I to tell them they are objectively "wrong"? And it's not aimed at those who are "obsessed" with phone photography. It's aimed at those who are looking to buy a film camera, and who are hitherto only familiar with phone photography. Most people under about 25 have never used a camera of any description that wasn't contained within a phone.

A "weird niche product" fills a niche. Pentax have done a lot of research and I assume that niche is sufficiently large to recoup the cost of developing and producing the Pentax 17. If it's a success, by whatever definition Pentax have assigned to it, then the next camera will probably be a more standard compact P&S 35mm camera. And after that, in a few years, we may see a SLR. From what they've been saying on social media (and they are engaging with young people and old farts alike), they aren't entirely ruling out medium format in the more distant future. But it all depends on the road map they have shared working out.


Finally, Pentax have made it abundantly clear that having the blueprints was of little help because the current engineering staff couldn't even understand them. Hence they engaged the services of long retired Pentax engineers to help them. They literally don't understand mechanical cameras - which has long been one of the biggest hurdles to production of a decent new film camera. Perhaps this was the last chance to work with the old engineers who worked in the 70s and 80s. But having the designs really was of minimal help on its own. Sankyo found exactly the same twenty years ago when they looked briefly at making a new super 8 movie camera and dismissed it almost immediately as impossible despite having blueprints and even a cache of parts from the 70s.

Well said.

Kids aren't stupid. They know they don't want junk and are willing to spend money on a well made name brand item. It's also very expensive to buy, develop and scan a roll of good film. 72+ shots on a camera with a manual film advance will do nicely. Perfect for a week end or a night out with friends. They're not out shooting a war with these things.

 

[bfilm]

Finally, Pentax have made it abundantly clear that having the blueprints was of little help because the current engineering staff couldn't even understand them. Hence they engaged the services of long retired Pentax engineers to help them. They literally don't understand mechanical cameras - which has long been one of the biggest hurdles to production of a decent new film camera. Perhaps this was the last chance to work with the old engineers who worked in the 70s and 80s. But having the designs really was of minimal help on its own.

Yes, I remember well Pentax talking about this. Honestly, to have the original drawings and even the cameras themselves and not be able to understand the mechanics does not inspire much confidence in said engineers.

Also, to address other points in the thread, I have said multiple times that while I think an SLR would be better (and more in line with the Pentax heritage) and what I see most people requesting, I am okay with them starting with a compact camera. I just really think the choice of aligning it with smartphone use instead of making a classic type camera is a big mistake. I do not think this will attract smartphone users, but instead it will not be distinctly different and analog enough to make it a top choice--this is the reason for the popularity of many of the old camera models.

As one other point, the availability of old SLR cameras does not necessarily negate potential success of a new one. The condition of old cameras is often not desirable, with among various potential issues viewfinders often being areas of deterioration and contamination. And a point that Pentax has correctly made is that parts and servicing are often not available for old cameras, and a new camera would have the advantage of warranty, parts, and servicing.

 

[xkaes]

It's more pocketable than my Folding Pocket Kodak.

Back two centuries ago, when the first Kodak Folding Pocket camera appeared, everyone had Captain Kangaroo pockets.

 

[xkaes]

I want a new compact camera. Half-frame? Great!

It's just too bad the Pentax 17 isn't compact -- even for a full-frame 35mm camera.

 

[MFstooges]

Someone need to upload Capt Kangaroo picture for the sake of size visualization