Pentacon Six framing solution...

[Meow7]

Hi folks, I realize this is probably a horse that has been beaten to death several times, but I'm wondering what solutions/magic spells/voodoo dances/pthagorean formulas people have for getting their Pentacon Six's frame spacing correct. I followed the instructions per Ted Forbes and Mr. Pentacon Six but knew form the get go it wasn't going to go according to plan. I see a lot of solutions out there... holding the shutter button down, advancing to 1/2" beyond the line etc. The images are stellar but they were all mashed together. Any ideas would be great! Thanks!

 

[shutterfinger]

Every MF rollfilm back I've come across doing a CLA on the wind gearing helped solve the problem.
At some point in time 120 film base was reduced in thickness. Its currently .0045 inch called 4.5 mil for Kodak and Ilford films, .003 (3 ml) for some Fuji films and .0035 (3.5mil) for others.
Depending on the film transport layout a left- right with rollers on each side add .008 to .012 inch to the diameter of the takeup side roller. For other systems add .008 to .012 inch to the takeup spool center before aattaching the film. Backing paaper is .004 inch thick so two or three layers taped in place will do the trick.

 

[Nokton48]

or use a wooden film spool. That works for me with old film backs.

 

[AgX]

I would consider getting the transport mechanism tuned-up (transport indicator):
http://www.baierfoto.de/fiadco.html

The Pentacon Six has more quirks, all covered at that workshop too.

 

[Meow7]

He has some good information there... I will try some of his loading suggestions. Has anyone had this indicator installed? I really like the camera...

 

[Arbitrarium]

I'll second the suggestion of thickening your take-up spool with some tape.

 

[Nokton48]

Wooden 120 film spools by Nokton48, on Flickr

Wooden spools have worked better for me, than taping modern spools, in old camera backs.

 

[Meow7]

I wonder if the older metal take-up spools are thicker than the newer plastic ones, I have a couple, I should try one of those next time. A thicker spool seems like it could help.

 

[guangong]

I was given a Pentacon Six new from the factory on a visit to Dresden in early 1970s. Right from beginning there were overlapping frames. Shortly thereafter when back in US traded it in for a 400mm Telyt for Leica. Only afterwards did a very good camera mechanical tell me he could fix it. Since mine was brand new, I don’t think cleaning is the answer, but possibly it can be fixed, but I have no idea how to do it.
Too bad, because handles well for a big camera and feels better in hand than Pentax 67. Was able to get a pic of author used on dust cover for his book. Everything worked but frame spacing.

 

[Nokton48]

The way the P6 pulls the film through, is totally archaic and extremely strange. A "star wheel" punches through the edges of the roll, and that action pulls it through. Except that the star wheel won't punch it's way through some thicker film bases (like Fuji Velvia).

I've had Rolf Dieter Baier's P6s mods done (Yes they work), also hot rodding at the Pentacon factory (upgraded P6 to EX66). I sold off my Penatcon Six and Kiev stuff.

StepheKoontz is another Delphi Kiev forum participant that is here now.

 

[Meow7]

Nokton48, are you the same Nokton48 who sent his Exakta 66 to Rolf-Dieter Baier for the indicator modification? I found an old thread on rangefinderforum.com.

Nokton48
02-12-2009, 14:06
I still have my Exakta 66 MK2, which I sent to Rolf-Dieter Baier in Germany, and he installed his -PATENTED- improved advance mechanism, which includes color-coded popups. It's now -impossible- to get an overlapping frame! I also had two hot-rodded Pentacon Sixes I sent to Pentacon in Germany, they hopped them up to the internals of an Exakta 66 MK3 (including the advance lever). More info at www.baierfoto.de (http://www.baierfoto.de) or www.pentacon.de (http://www.pentacon.de)

 

[Meow7]

Sorry, posted that before I saw your response!!!

 

[Nokton48]

Yep I'm also "Hassydan" over at the old musty Delphi Kiev forum. The archives there are vast.

 

[Meow7]

Well, I do like the camera enough to spend a few extra $$$ to get it perfect I guess.

 

[Meow7]

You'd think that over the course of the 30 odd years they manufactured the camera they would have attempted to address that issue. Perhaps the only thing stopping it from becoming a legendary camera, and not legendary for it's quirkiness only. I was honestly blown away by the images I got, cropped from overlapped images no less. Mine is as new, probably set aside when the owner decided dealing with the framing was too much hassle. The lenses are mint as new...

 

[Meow7]

I am going to experiment with a few things before I send it off... Using different spool, maybe using double sided tape to tape the leader to the spool, trying Mr. Baier's method he describes on his website.

 

[Nokton48]

Also look at www.pentaconsix.com
Run by "Mr. Pentacon Six" from the Delphi Kiev Forum
Really impressive website!

 

[Meow7]

I have extensively perused Mr. Pentacon Six's website, I followed his loading instructions. Lots of info there!

 

[Pioneer]

I had mine given a CLA to clear up some shutter issues and to address the overlapping frames. Now, if I am careful when I load the camera, I don't have any overlapping frames unless I try a film with a very thin base like Adox CMS II. I just use the normal, plastic film spools and they don't seem to be a problem.

 

[shutterfinger]

Increasing the diameter of the takeup spool center or takeup roller it increases the distance the film has to travel to wind the amount of film the transport system moves per wind. This causes the film to move further as it goes over the film plane/presure plate increasing the spacing between frames.

 

[Meow7]

That is my next test. But what if just always give that little extra wind each time? Back off about 1cm then wind that little bit and then return to the start position.

 

[Nokton48]

Here's what I have been using

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...791308?hash=item1ccae0728c:g:nhgAAOSw9GdccyJw

 

[Meow7]

Well I'm happy to report that the Baier method of winding works!!!!

 

[Nokton48]

Excellent news. Rolph Dieter is a great guy and he knows more than I do about how the P6 works.

Keep doing what you are doing

 

[AgX]

or use a wooden film spool. That works for me with old film backs.

So far I could not find a significant difference in stem diameter. The plastic spools were 0.1 and 0.2mm thicker.