Panos with a folder?

[snusmumriken]

Is it possible to take xpan-style photos by loading 35mm film into an old folder, or even a box camera? Obviously it would require adapted spools, and I have no idea whether those would have to be home-made, or whether someone already sells such things? And what could I do about advancing the film exactly one frame? Would I need a backing paper tape alongside the film, marked to show frame numbers through the little red window, or is there another way? And finally, what camera would anyone recommend for such an experiment?

 

[blee1996]

I think the biggest problem is how to get proper frame advance. Almost all the folders and box cameras rely on the red window to look at the 120 backing paper in order to find the right frame advance. So obviously you cannot do that with 35mm film. Maybe a few cameras have teethed cogwheels to auto-advance film without the red window, but the cogs are typically on the edges of 120 film width and will not be able to catch 35mm film in order to work properly.

On the other hand, Pentax 6x7 and some models of Fujica GW690 series should work properly out of the box. I only had experience with Pentax 6x7.

In comparison, adapters for using 35mm cassettes in 120 cameras are easy to find. There are plastic 3D printed ones, as well as metal machined ones. I personally use the plastic 3D printed ones in a Pentax 6x7 and they work well.

I use Pentax 6x7 with panorama kit and 45mm lens with good results.

Flickr Search — “pentax panorama”

flickr.com

 

[Donald Qualls]

At least one folder has a frame counter that doesn't depend on a friction wheel: the pre-War and immediately post-War Super Ikonta B uses turns-counting and a cam that compensates for the thickness build-up as film is rolled up on to the spool. This will tend to narrow the frame spacing as the roll progresses with 35 mm (no backing paper). The simple solution might be to do as people sometimes do with 127 -- roll 35 mm film into a recycled backing paper so you can handle it like 120 film.

 

[MattKing]

Would I need a backing paper tape alongside the film, marked to show frame numbers through the little red window, or is there another way? And finally, what camera would anyone recommend for such an experiment?

Just tape the 35mm film to the centre of the (previously used) 120 backing paper, and roll the sandwich on to 120 spools. You will use the same numbers as you do with 120 film.
The trick is getting the 35mm film positioned in the centre of the backing paper and parallel to the edge of the paper.

 

[snusmumriken]

The simple solution might be to do as people sometimes do with 127 -- roll 35 mm film into a recycled backing paper so you can handle it like 120 film.

Just tape the 35mm film to the centre of the (previously used) 120 backing paper, and roll the sandwich on to 120 spools. You will use the same numbers as you do with 120 film.

Ah, of course, that’s the way to go. Thanks!

The trick is getting the 35mm film positioned in the centre of the backing paper and parallel to the edge of the paper.

I can feel a darkroom jig coming on!

 

[Donald Qualls]

I can feel a darkroom jig coming on!

Careful, if I dance a jig in my darkroom, I'm liable to take a nasty fall and hurt myself (and/or some of my equipment).

 

[KitosLAB]

Today I finished shooting 35mm on a 127 camera. There will be a whole series of experiments. This is fresh Svema. By the end of the week I plan to show. For 120 camera you need bobbins adapters. They are easy to print on a 3d printer. I can sell but the shipment will be at least 12 bucks))

 

[snusmumriken]

Careful, if I dance a jig in my darkroom, I'm liable to take a nasty fall and hurt myself (and/or some of my equipment).

I’m actually nursing a broken leg at the moment, so that kind of jig is off the menu. Doesn’t stop me plotting how to do this, though.

 

[snusmumriken]

Today I finished shooting 35mm on a 127 camera. There will be a whole series of experiments. This is fresh Svema. By the end of the week I plan to show. For 120 camera you need bobbins adapters. They are easy to print on a 3d printer. I can sell but the shipment will be at least 12 bucks))

View attachment 329759

Great, I look forward to seeing the results of your experiment!

 

[Dustin McAmera]

I've done this with a Certo Super Sport Dolly. It wasn't my own idea; I read somebody at Flickr saying he'd done it with this, because the cassette fitted easily. It's not an extremely wide frame; 58x24mm; and of course it's only panoramic in that sense. It's no wider a view than the camera would take on a 120 film, just cropped top and bottom. But it was fun all the same.
All I did was cut two pieces of wooden dowel to pack the supply end and hold the cassette in the middle of the frame. I taped the end of the film to the take-up spool. I guessed the frame-spacing. I put two layers of black tape over the red window. With no rewind, I unloaded the camera in my black bag straight into the tank.
Here are a few frames:

Flickr Search — “Certo panorama”

www.flickr.com

 

[henryvk]

With a sacrificial film you can just load it with the back open, mark the frame edges on the back of the film with a white permanent marker or something, and count how many turns of the film advance it takes to advance a full frame.

 

[Donald Qualls]

load it with the back open, mark the frame edges on the back of the film with a white permanent marker or something, and count how many turns of the film advance it takes to advance a full frame.

Further, since film thickness is pretty consistent even across brands and the 120 spool size is a standard, this figure should be the same (near enough) for all 6x9, a different, but consistent figure for 6x6, etc. That is, once you have a chart for your Wirgin Auta you can use the same chart for an Ansco Viking etc.

 

[koraks]

With a sacrificial film you can just load it with the back open, mark the frame edges on the back of the film with a white permanent marker or something, and count how many turns of the film advance it takes to advance a full frame.

That's the way I've always done it in a Shen Hao 6x12 roll film holder. Works fine.

The main issue with 35mm panoramas, especially the wider ons (9cm and longer) is the film curl. 35mm film tends to curl inward towards the emulsion, which creates pretty massive halation and sharpness issues along the edges/sprockets. With B&W film this is not much of an issue, but with color film, I've never found a way to get something acceptable out of it. I even tried fitting a glass plate in front of the film to keep it flat, but with evident flare issues and some problems with scratching and other artifacts. I think I've tried an experiment in a smaller camera at some point as well, but my interest in 35mm panoramas has always been with the extreme aspect ratios, i.e. 6x12 frames exposed on 35mm film.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

My Certo is dual format (square or 6x4.5) and you change format by swapping out a removable mask. So I could have* tried to make a mask for 35mm, supporting the film edges without changing the film plane. I'm sure I could do it, though the original masks have rollers at each end, and I'm not sure I could replicate that.

*could have; didn't.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

For 120 camera you need bobbins adapters.

You might make an adapter that passed the winding action to a cassette on the take-up side. Then you wouldn't need to unload in a changing bag. The spool in that would have to be upside-down (I think). I have a 35mm folder that needs a take-up cassette, and an old Ilford one (from when the end-caps just pop off when asked) works well.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The (now pretty common) 3D printed 35 mm to 120 adapters will work for this on both ends. Cassette to cassette is the best way, IMO -- but you may need to reverse the spool in the takeup cassette to get it to work right (or you may not, depending on the adapters you use). If you hand load the cassettes with a few inches of cine film leader material on each end, you can load and unload in daylight this way.

 

[snusmumriken]

This is hugely helpful stuff, thank to all.

Can anyone point me to a source if those 35mm/120 adapters in the UK or Europe, please?

 

[Donald Qualls]

I got mine on eBay; I'd try there first. Otherwise, try to find someone with a 3D printer; the files for them are freely downloadable. You'll need one set per cassette if you do cassette to cassette. BTW, a 3D printer is the first place to try to make a frame mask for the narrow film, too.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

For my camera, unless I decided to include rollers, the mask would be just a sheet of metal, with a rectangular hole in the right place, and the ends bent over to grip the camera body. I'd make it from brass sheet, and need nothing more complicated than a junior hacksaw and a drill, file and emery paper for tidying it up, and the end of a thicker sheet of steel, to bend the metal round.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'd make it from brass sheet, and need nothing more complicated than a junior hacksaw and a drill, file and emery paper for tidying it up, and the end of a thicker sheet of steel, to bend the metal round.

That's an option, too. Depending how they're laid out, it might not be unreasonable to include the rollers, too. I've replaced rollers in a folder and reinstalled a loose on in one of my RB67 film backs.

 

[DareFail]

With a sacrificial film you can just load it with the back open, mark the frame edges on the back of the film with a white permanent marker or something, and count how many turns of the film advance it takes to advance a full frame.

You just have to do it for the whole film because at every next photo, the circumference is getting bigger.
At the first photo you may have to turn it 2 times and at the 10th photo you may have to turn it 1 time.

 

[dourbalistar]

This is hugely helpful stuff, thank to all.

Can anyone point me to a source if those 35mm/120 adapters in the UK or Europe, please?

Camerhack, based in Italy, sells all manner of adapters:

in film we trust - CamerHack film photography adapters

“I am absolutely delighted with the kit: it totally rejuvenates these old folders by turning them into panoramic cameras – you deserve a medal for…

www.camerhack.it

 

[snusmumriken]

Camerhack, based in Italy, sells all manner of adapters:

in film we trust - CamerHack film photography adapters

“I am absolutely delighted with the kit: it totally rejuvenates these old folders by turning them into panoramic cameras – you deserve a medal for…

www.camerhack.it

Thank you!

 

[henryvk]

You just have to do it for the whole film because at every next photo, the circumference is getting bigger.
At the first photo you may have to turn it 2 times and at the 10th photo you may have to turn it 1 time.

Probably a good idea to run the whole roll but my guess is that 35 mm is so much thinner than 120 stock + backing paper that with generous enough spacing you can get 12 or so exposures at 9 cm width with round about the same number of turns.

 

[guangong]

I don’t quite understand how shooting a strip of 35mm film in a 120 film folder creates a panorama picture since the taking lens remains the same. How would this differ from simply cropping the top and bottom from a 120 negative?
Rollei made a 35mm film adapter for TLR cameras, but that just meant that you were then shooting 35 with a long 80mm lens. What am I missing here?