Overhauling Kodak Panoram

B&Jdude · Sep 11, 2008

Yeah, Jack, my model 1 Original (no letter) is in Ken's capable hands at this time, and it also suffers from the out of focus problem, among a long list of others. Anyhoo, he is working on it now and hopefully will have all the issues fixed soon.

I would think it might be easier to use push-on ND filters rather than faucet washer "waterhouse stops" to control overexposures. Either make them yourself or search FleaBay for 19mm push-on adapters for series 1 (21.5mm) or series 4 (20.8mm) ND filters. Push on holders certainly would be easier to remove than the washer inserts . . .and I suppose they would be less likely to vignette. Also, they could hold other filters (e.g., #8, #11, #15, #23, etc.) when desired.

By the way, the patent number mentioned in a previous post (#693583) is actually a revision of a prior patent (#689159), with the latter offering more details of the whole Panoram camera body, not just the swing lens mechanism. This was pointed out to me by Bill McBride, an authority on the Panorams, so you might wish to print out that 2nd patent to add to your Panoram file. Now to find and photocopy an owner's manual!!

EuGene

B&Jdude · Sep 14, 2008

Ron (NOLARon) gave me a link to some folks in the UK that offer a copy of the Panoram owners manual, so I decided to take a chance and ordered one. We'll see what I come up with on the deal.

"Behold the lowly turtle . . . he must stick his neck out to get ahead."

EuGene

eworkman · Sep 14, 2008

Thanks for that earlier number.
It won't work in Google PAtents but just fine at USPO
I tried searching F.A. Brownell, the inventor, in Google Patents but likewise a bust.
Unfortunately, USPO won't search that far back by inventor

B&Jdude · Sep 14, 2008

Now, what I would like to find is a patent for the gear and ratchet speed control used on the later model D panorams. I'm referring to the gears mounted at the bottom end of the swinging lens shaft.

I can't imagine that Kodak would introduce that new method of controlling the speed of the swinging lens and not protecting it with a patent. I checked with Bill McBride, a leading expert on the Panoram, and he knows of no such patent ever having been obtained by Kodak.

It is possible that the basic design was invented and patented by another person or company and Kodak made their mechanism under a license from the patent holder. I don't know where to look . . . it is quite possible that mechanism was actually designed to govern the speed of some other device unrelated to cameras.

EuGene

B&Jdude · Sep 14, 2008

I just bought a clunker on FleaBay (#120305614821) for $50, and now I have not only a parts bed, but also a camera on which I can practice disassembly, repairs, adjustments, reassembly, etc. This thing is on a roll now!

EuGene

B&Jdude · Sep 20, 2008

FrankR, freygr, NOLARon, Jack Green, and any other interested parties, time to start spreading the word on Panoram disassembly and repair.

Since 2 or 3 of you have removed and worked on the mechanism in your Panorams within the past week or so, tell us how you did it, what problems you had removing it, lessons learned, etc. I'm a bit behind, but I have a No. 4 "beater" coming in around Monday or Tuesday, and I plan to tear right into it, no holds barred.

Who is going first? Tell us your story.

EuGene

B&Jdude · Sep 23, 2008

NOLARon, I've been watching for you and Frank R. to come on this Panoram Overhaul thread to discuss repair techniques, but haven't seen you on here for a while. Since both of you have managed to disassemble the mechanism on your Panorams, it would be great to discuss it and how it is done on this thread.

I, too, have a problem with the shutter release on the beater 4D that I just got in the mail yesterday. It is jamming the lens so that it won't swing and the release button just barely moves downward when you press it . . . almost like it is already at the bottom of its travel.

Of course, I'm still not understanding how you got those 4 screws out that hold the metal mechanism plate (#65 in the early patent and #31 in the later one) in place. Do you have a super stubby screwdriver that you can get up inside the camera? Or a flexible shaft or U-joint screwdriver? I haven't been able to figure out how to get to those screws. I guess this is another thing we should discuss on this thread, as I'm sure others are equally confused about how to get the mechanism plate out of the camera.

EuGene

B&Jdude · Sep 23, 2008

Folks, I just got the word on another patent related to the Panoram. It is #1,023,933, entitled "Film Winding Key For Cameras", dated Apr. 23, 1912. It shows a rather complex winding mechanism with an anti-backlash system consting of 3 little metal balls and a cam they they jam to prevent backward turning of the winder. The important thing about this is by knowing how this mechanism is built, one won't open it up blindly, only to watch the tiny balls and their tensioning springs go flying about the room, never to be found.

There is nothing specific to the Panoram in this design, so this winding mechanism was probably used on other Kodak cameras as well.

So, we now have a 3rd patent in our file on the Kodak Panorams. For late comers to this thread, the first 2 patents, covering the basic camera and the swing lens mechanism are #689,159 (Dec 17, 1901) and #693,583 (Feb 18, 1902).

Frank R · Sep 23, 2008

I am pasting over the contents of some PM exchanges for other peoples benefit.

Here's the latest:

B&Jdude said:
Alright! That's progress! You gotta fill me in on the steps you took, in order, to disassemble that thing. Maybe mail me some pix or sketches of the process.

Of course I have all sorts of questions:

How did you get those two screws loose inside the camera - a short, stubby screw driver or one with a flexible shaft? Or, was the plate held by 2 screws that were on the top under the leather, one on each side of the cocking leaver?

Did you take out the 10 screws on front and remove the front plate?

Was there any difficulty in taking the lens shaft and hood loose or is it just a simple matter of removeing (or loosening) the screw on the bottom of the shaft and removing the tensioning lever on the top of the camera. Does the shaft juse come out then (once you have either removed the lens from the bellows of brought the bellows out with the lens and shaft?

I could go on and on, but I'll spare you. Anyhoo, I bought a dead 4C from Bill McBride, and that will provide me with a camera on which I can practice disassembly. Still, I'll gladly take any info and advice I can get to help me to minimize mistakes.

I have my ball peen hammer, vice grips, skil saw, porta-power, and other tools ready to do some camera repairs!!

EuGene

Well, the key was I had a torn bellows so I was able to get some access from the front (maybe removing the bellows first on your camera would give you access). I also used a needle nosed pliers to loosen one wood screw I could not reach with the screw driver.

I took off the top tensioning lever first, then the screws for the top plate and then the screws at the bottom of the shaft. I then had to take off the rear lens hood. After some wiggling the bottom plate and the top plate came out. Pretty straight forward. The shaft and lens are dangling from the leather.

I did not remove the front 10 screws. I tried months age but stopped when it became difficult to get all of them out. Now I have more incentive; I need to find a piece of leather to replace the bellows.

Frank R · Sep 23, 2008

Here is some more pasted over; this exchange actually occurred before the previous post:

Frank R said:
Even though I had a lot to do I disassembled the camera yesterday. I studied those drawings and read the text too. The top plate you mentioned was only being held in by two of the four screws. After I pulled out the mechanism ( I had to take off the inner hood and the lens shaft too) I did not find anything broken. I think the missing screws caused a lack of tension on the shutter release spring arm (part 74). I think it got bent down a bit by too much pressure also. I may be able to bend it back a bit and reinstall the whole plate with all four screws; that should get it to work. The biggest repair will be the need for an entire new bellows.

Frank R · Sep 23, 2008

B&Jdude said:
Folks, I just got the word on another patent related to the Panoram. It is #1,023,933, entitled "Film Winding Key For Cameras", dated Apr. 23, 1912. It shows a rather complex winding mechanism with an anti-backlash system consting of 3 little metal balls and a cam they they jam to prevent backward turning of the winder. The important thing about this is by knowing how this mechanism is built, one won't open it up blindly, only to watch the tiny balls and their tensioning springs go flying about the room, never to be found.

There is nothing specific to the Panoram in this design, so this winding mechanism was probably used on other Kodak cameras as well.

So, we now have a 3rd patent in our file on the Kodak Panorams. For late comers to this thread, the first 2 patents, covering the basic camera and the swing lens mechanism are #689,159 (Dec 17, 1901) and #693,583 (Feb 18, 1902).

My take up knob does work in only one direction. I have no plans to disassemble it; it seems to work fine.

B&Jdude · Sep 23, 2008

Thanks, Frank, for dragging that stuff over here where everyone can read it. There is definitely some good disassembly info that I will use this weekend when I tackle the "beater" 4C. I'm gonna tear it down, play with the pieces, put it back together, tear it down, play with the pieces, put it . . . ad nausem. I want to do it enough that I learn how to do it in my sleep.

Now, that old dog has a winder that is stuck tight and I don't want to try to force it lest I destroy same. Therefore I plan to completely disassemble the winder, clean all the parts, lube as needed, and reassemble it. I don't know if it is the new type winder (see patent #1,023,933) with the tiny balls & springs, but just to be safe, I will take it apart as carefully as 2 porcupines making love!

As for the bellows, I am going to try making one with a piece of chamois leather . . . it is super soft and flexible (about like silk) and should dye easily to a dark brown or black.

I need to track down NOLARon and get him to move his PM's over here, as he just took his Panoram apart and has a bunch of ideas and lessons learned, too.

In the meantime, there are always Panorams for sale on FleaBay (3 on there today) . . . sometimes they are misplaced as "panorama" or "panoramic", so don't look for them only by searching for "panoram".

EuGene

freygr · Sep 23, 2008

For bellows repair or making, here is a bunch of links:
http://www.hewit.com/acatalog/Skiver__Sheep_.html
http://www.leprevo.co.uk/hides.html
http://www.jamiltonupholstery.co.uk/shop_product.asp?dept=30
http://www.chamois.com/skiverleather.htm
http://www.antiqueleathers.com/prices.php
http://www.antique-leathers.co.uk/products/loose.html
http://www.zimeks.com/skiver.htm
http://www.buchbinderleder.de/
Dead Link Removed
http://www.cameraleather.com/
http://www.columbiaorgan.com/col/skins.htm#CPL Clock

Good Luck
Gordon

B&Jdude · Sep 24, 2008

WOW! Nice list of leather sources, Gordon. Do you (or anyone else on here) have any ideas on which leathers, besides chamois, is soft and flexible enough to make good Panoram bellows? What about dying it? What about sealing pores to make the bellows light tight . . . and without making the bellows stiff?

By the way, is Tandy still around?

B&Jdude · Sep 24, 2008

HOLY SMOKES! Panorams are falling from the sky! A certain auction site just listed a 4th Panoram, another No. 1D (the other 1D is listed as a Panorama). That make 2 1D's, a 3A, and a 4C all listed at the same time! Is the economy getting bad enough that camera collectors are starving and need quick cash??

JackGreen · Sep 24, 2008

Panoram models

Does anyone know the distinctions between the various models? I know that the numbers indicate differences in format size but what about the letters. Presumably they indicate chronology of production but how do you tell which is which (my no1 seems to have no markings) and what is different as the chronology progresses?
Jack

B&Jdude · Sep 24, 2008

Jack:

The No 4 came out first, in 1899, used type 103 film, and had no door on the front, then they added the door in 1900, but still called it a No. 4 with no letter. Also in 1900 the No 1, with no letter, came out using 105 film . . . 105 was the same size as 120 film, but had smaller holes in the spools, which is why 120 film spools are a bit wobbly in these cameras. Both models opened for film loading and unloading by splitting the case into 2 pieces along a curved joint. Both the early #1 and #4 had Rapid Rectilinear lens as standard equipment, but some could be special ordered with early Goerz pre-Dagor lenses.

The Panarams went through B and C versions which were substantially the same as the original except the lens was changed to a meniscus lens and various other minor changes such as adding 3 metal plates on the sides of the film track to help keep the film from jumping out of the track, placement of the bubble level, etc.

Then, somewhere in the 1920's the D version came out which dispensed with the 2 piace case in favor of a case which opened by the back hinging downward and the sides swinging outward which exposed the insides for film loading and unloading (on the film winder side, the carrying strap had to be unclipped from the top of the camera so that side could swing open).

There were variations in the #1 & #4 D versions, as well. Some had two levels and tripod mounting threads, on on top and one on the side, so the camera could take horizontal or vertical (such as of a waterfall or tall building) shots. Some had a gear-ratchet speed control mechanism located on the bottom of the swivel lens shaft.

Lastly, near the end of Panoram production, the 3A model (the only Panoram using the A letter designation) was produced for about 2 years between 1926 - 1928. It was similar to the #1D & #4D except that it used type 122 film and many (if not all) had a 2 position speed changing lever separate from the tensioning lever.

Some of the other folks on here may have more specifics to add, especially dates/years regarding when these various iterations in the Panoram cameras occurred.

EuGene

B&Jdude · Sep 24, 2008

P.S. Actually the metal film guide plates began to be put on some of the cameras late in the original version production, but were then used consistently on the B & C versions. They weren't needed with the D versions as the fixed top and bottom of the cameras served to hold the film in place.

EuGene

freygr · Sep 24, 2008

B&Jdude said:
WOW! Nice list of leather sources, Gordon. Do you (or anyone else on here) have any ideas on which leathers, besides chamois, is soft and flexible enough to make good Panoram bellows? What about dying it? What about sealing pores to make the bellows light tight . . . and without making the bellows stiff?

By the way, is Tandy still around?

Columbia Organ Works, Inc. has the best choices of leathers for making leather bellows, and I would thing that you would measure the thickness of the old leather to make sure you order the same thickness. The XXX Extra Thin weight leather is only .005 - .007" (0.18mm) thick and other leathers are .030 to .050 inch thick (.762-1.27 mm) or even thicker.

Link to Tandy Leather: http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/

B&Jdude · Sep 25, 2008

I remember from many years ago helping a friend up in Virginia make a leather bellows, and he showed me some different types of thin and very flexible leather. He had me to hold them up to the light, and you could really tell the difference between the density and size of the pores in some of the leathers.

He selected a piece that, although it had more pores per sq. in. that many of the others, they were much smaller and he said they would be easier to seal. He rubbed the leather with something that had black dye added which treated the leather, sealed the pores, and dyed it, all in one operation, and it had no effect on the feel or flexibility of the leather. He said that over time the leather might begin to leak light as it wears on the corners and folds in the bellows, but it will never leak through the pores as they were permanently sealed.

I have some really nice chamois (Kodak Photo Chamois) that I want to use, but need to get some of that leather sealing & dying stuff that leather working folks use. I don't know what it is called and where to get it. Can anyone help?

JackGreen · Sep 25, 2008

Thanks for the clarification on models EuGene. I guess that my no 1 is a D version. It has doors. For dyeing leather I have used Feibings (sp?) black leather dye. It does come in other colors. It seems to work pretty well for touching up scuffs on leather coverings of Graphlexes, folders, etc. It does a good on the finger tips as well. I'm not sure of how well it seals. I found it at a shoe repair shop.

Jack

B&Jdude · Sep 25, 2008

Jack:

Appreciate the info on leather dye . . . now to find out the best way to seal the pores.

Kodak had a tendency to put various modifications on cameras almost at random, it seems. It would be no surprise to me to find a C version with doors or a D with a split case. I have an original with a high serial # and no metal film guides and another with a low # that has them. That 1D that just sold today on Flea Bay had a T-shaped level (like the one generally used on the short-lived model 3A) rather than the usual bulls-eye style level, and no evidence on the camera top that a bulls-eye had ever been on there.

Anyhoo, the version normally is shown on the inside of the door, but then Kodak wasn't always consistent there either. They might have stamped it with something like:

No. 1D Kodak Panoram

or

No. 1 Kodak Panoram
Model D

or

[insert any conceivable variation]

Then, there is always the possibility that the camera was repaired somewhere in its 80+ year life with its damaged door having been replaced with one cannibalized from a junker.

EuGene

Frank R · Sep 26, 2008

The "bellows" on the Panorams are much simpler than a typical folded bellows. They are mostly just a flat piece of leather with a hole for the lens.

I was thinking I could buy a small piece somewhere, I only need a piece that is 4 inches by 6 inches. Before I buy though, I will remove the existing bellows and fold it out flat to get actual dimensions and pattern.

The leather covering my wreck of a camera was flaking off in large pieces. I stripped off most of it. The cherry wood body underneath looks really nice. I will seal it with varnish after the cleanup. A nice black bellows from a nice premium peice of leather will add a nice touch. That, and polishing all of the hardware.

Sounds like a nice winter project.

B&Jdude · Sep 26, 2008

Frank, I was thinking the same thing about my No. 1 Original version. The leather is already gone from the front and 1/4" to 1/2" pieces are gone from all the corners. Since the remaining leather is dried, cracked, and even curling up in some places, I might as well help the rest of it to come off, then varnish it like yours.

I will need to use some plastic rubber or something similar on the inside to seal the corners, because with the leather off the camera, the corners will usually not be light tight.

I have that nice soft & supple piece of Kodak chamois that I might use to cut out a new "bellows" for the camera. I can dye it a nice black with some of that shoe dye that Jack mentioned in his earlier post, but I do need to check with some leather working folks to find out the best way to seal the pores without stiffening the chamois. I can hold the untreated chamois up to the light and see hundreds of tiny pores.

I haven't seen NOLARon on here since last Saturday, but when he does come in, I think he had a few ideas on making Panoram bellows. He has been working on his mechanism, too, so we might get some more good ideas there as well.

EuGene

Frank R · Sep 26, 2008

I have some chamois but I dont care for the rough texture. It is such a small piece, and I bought the wreck for about $4, that I think I will splurge on a nice piece of leather.

Overhauling Kodak Panoram

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency