Our Recent Silver Bromide Gelatin Emulsion Workshop

[removed account4]

hi ron

i think it is collodion tintypes they are making.
i looked at that workshop, it looked like lots and lots of fun.
one of these days, i gotta break the chains of my bondage and head to rochester !

have a nice night
( playing boil them cabbage down on his lap dulcimer )
john

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Oy! Ron,

Yuh just gotta stop saying stuff like this. People take you seriously and at your word, but they shouldn't. I just can't figure out why you want to make things seem so hard. But, words are only words.

It certainly is possible to make a usable emulsion with minimum fuss and bother. However, making reproducible emulsions with exactly the same properties day after day and year after year is NOT easy. I've known Ron for over 40 years. What he is trying to do is develop workable manufacturing processes/formulas that produce reproducible 'do it yourself' results time after time. That's what he did at Kodak.

 

[Hexavalent]

Many thanks Ian. You are one of many that are holding my virtual hand over the internet. Mark is doing the same. Only, next week he is sailing down the Erie canal with Chris and Nick. They are doing dry plate (IIRC) and supplying period music with banjo, mouth organ, washtub and guitar. Knowing my limits, I am staying out of this workshop!

Best wishes to al.

PE

Let me guess... your accordion is in for repairs, so you can't participate.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ian, my wife is the dulcimer person. I am violin! My violin is out of tune and practice. I would love to learn from Mark, but we have little time to digress from our core silver gelatin when we meet, as you know when you join us. BTW, this will not be next wee! ::

Fred, many thanks. I appreciate the comments.

Oh, BTW, I get very seasick.

PE

 

[Hexavalent]

..... A simple published formula such as AJ-12, published here on APUG cannot be tinkered with unless you know a lot about what you are doing or have some expect backup. This is a Kodak formula, but one that can only be made exactly as written.

PE

If I can add another 2 cents - even the AJ-12 formula, which is fairly explicit in detail (compared to many other 'old' formulae), contains some fuzzy areas such as "Heat the emulsion to 15 minutes at 130 F (55 C) for further ripening; then slowly cool it to 104 F (40 C)." How long is "slowly cool"? 5 minutes? An hour? All the while, there is activity in the kettle which will affect the final result. Another, but not so critical item: "Soak 1 ounce 180 grains (40 grams) of gelatin in cold water until it is thoroughly softened. Pour off excess water ". What is 'thoroughly softened'? How much water should the gelatin absorb? Similarly, the noodling/washing procedure does not specify temperate, or what kind of water (tap water, distilled, DI). As I have learned, overwashing can ruin an emulsion, by diluting it and/or rendering it unstable.

Can such a formula be followed exactly as written? The formula part: almost. The procedure: kinda. Frequently one encounters frustratingly vague phrases like "in a manner familiar to one practiced in the art". Whatever one's interpretation of the 'grey areas' of a procedure, it's good policy to aim for a manageable and reproducible set of parameters. i.e. always use the same water, use a chill bath instead of "slowly cool", and do it the same way every time.

Fortunately, the home emulsion-maker is not likely to be growing t-grains, or using complex dopants, so there is a fair amount of wiggle room in procedure that will still yield a pleasantly usable brew. The magic of seeing a home-brewed and coated glass plate is nothing short of thrilling!

 

[Bob Carnie]

We have a decent setup here in Toronto for work. How hard would it be to make a consistent emulsion on rag paper?

Ron I am specifically thinking the wonderful samples you showed me that IMO looked like an Extalure Print on a lovely watercolour paper.

I do plan to do the workshop with Paulette as soon as we can.

Bob

 

[kb3lms]

A bazillion thanks to Ron (PE) for putting up with my endless questions, supplying answers and suggested reading, and providing much "hand-holding" along the way.

Double-dittos to that!

The good news about emulsion making is that even with basic tools and materials there isn't that much reason not to try if you are interested. Sure, you don't get perfection and absolute reproducibility might not be possible but you CAN make something that will work, experience the process and get an appreciation for what people like Ron and Fred and others have done for all of us over the years. As Ron gets closer to the goals he is pursuing we all benefit.

And you can get the pride and satisfaction of "I made it myself." As long as you are careful and observe common sense precautions, even if you do totally mess up a batch, you're out some time and money but probably not more than that. Denise's web site, The Light Farm, is great in the encouragement it provides to go out and try and she provides a lot of great information. I don't think anyone pretends that they can use what they find there to go out and start making salable products. Growing T-Grains in your basement is another matter entirely.

John: I definitely get the "chains of bondage" thing.

-- Jason

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ian, thanks for putting things in the perspective of one who has BTDT with a "good" formula published by EK no less.

Bob, using Ian's example, we will leave nothing to question. We give precise instructions with which you can repeat the emulsion so exactly that you can blend batches with no deviation in speed or contrast.

PE

 

[Bob Carnie]

I look forward to visiting Rochester again and rubbing shoulders.

I also am negotiating a much larger group to visit for a few days and am speaking to Mark O about this.
I will keep you in the loop.

Ian, thanks for putting things in the perspective of one who has BTDT with a "good" formula published by EK no less.

Bob, using Ian's example, we will leave nothing to question. We give precise instructions with which you can repeat the emulsion so exactly that you can blend batches with no deviation in speed or contrast.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, this coming week, I said that Mark will be on the Eerie Canal!

He is going to be exhausted after class every day and at the end of the week.

See you soon.

 

[Hexavalent]

What is "summer speed" emulsion?

 

[wildbillbugman]

Do it be about Donna or Susann? Susann, I hear was really fast back in "The Day".

 

[dwross]

I am guessing you are referencing post #38 (??) "...ASA 100 (summer speed) ortho ("X2Ag")..." I can see how that was confusing. I meant that the emulsion is ASA 100 in the summer, assuming full sun, mid-day, and a high energy developer. That's the thing with pre-modern emulsions. It is meaningless to assign a speed to them without specifying the shooting conditions. Every photography book published in the late 1880's and early 1900's had a chart of latitudes and times of year with numbers like filter factors to estimate exposure compensation (i.e. "speed"). Since the emulsions see very little beyond UV, the higher the UV, the "faster" the emulsion. "x2Ag" is around ASA 25 at Christmas time.

 

[Hexavalent]

Thanks,

I figured it was in regard to "colour-blind".

Summer speed is probably mid-winter here in Ottawa

Personally, I'd prefer to go panchro and not have to worry.

I am guessing you are referencing post #38 (??) "...ASA 100 (summer speed) ortho ("X2Ag")..." I can see how that was confusing. I meant that the emulsion is ASA 100 in the summer, assuming full sun, mid-day, and a high energy developer. That's the thing with pre-modern emulsions. It is meaningless to assign a speed to them without specifying the shooting conditions. Every photography book published in the late 1880's and early 1900's had a chart of latitudes and times of year with numbers like filter factors to estimate exposure compensation (i.e. "speed"). Since the emulsions see very little beyond UV, the higher the UV, the "faster" the emulsion. "x2Ag" is around ASA 25 at Christmas time.

 

[Photo Engineer]

But the ideal is no such thing as summer speed. The speed should be the same all year round. That is my goal and that is the goal of the ANSI standards committee. If you do it right, the speeds do not vary with the seasons.

Oh dear. Someone has something wrong here.

PE

 

[dwross]

Panchromatic emulsion is indeed a very fine goal. Best luck to both of us (and all other serious cooks). I'm almost there. I hope the same for you. I will be proud to use my own pan film, but I'll still make and use colorblind, and also ortho. They all have their own personalities and uses.

 

[kb3lms]

How DO you make an emulsion be the same speed all your round? Do you desensitize it to UV?

Pachromatic would be great, except you have to coat it in the dark, right? I'm not that good!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes, most commercial films today are overcoated with a UV blocker.

And no, I don't like to coat in total darkness either. I've worked in a black lab too many times to know it is not easy and therefore I commonly work in safelight conditions with, at most, ortho films.

PE

 

[Hexavalent]

As an aside, if you want to see some truly bizarre color->grey rendering, try some short IR imagesetter film - it's UV/blue and red/IR sensitive, with a green blindness. (It does require some tricks just to get the focussing right).

 

[wildbillbugman]

You do not have to work in a Black Room. A Cheap (~$200) generation 1 IR manacle takes a bit of adjustment. But I use one all the time. Worst part is- distorted depth perception.
Denise- Not to be cynical, but "almost there" can be much longer than "halfway there". You and I are working with different systems. But I hope that, once you get "There" you will publish info on TLF.
Ian, If you know the dye system of IR imagesetter, just add some erythrosine and you have a panchro emulsion. No?

 

[Hexavalent]

Hi Bill,

I though of treating some imagesetter film with dye, but there's no practical way to get the goods into the film. It's designed for very rapid processing (under 1 minute), and as such the existing dyes, anti-halo etc., wash out if one tries to soak it in erythrosine (or other) solution.
Imagesetter film doesn't make a very good camera film, but it does make a very durable film base if it's fixed and washed

 

[lunarcaustic]

Handmade Gelatin Dry Plate Making August 18, 2014 through August 21, 2014

Can anyone confirm that participants will actually coat, expose, and print plates during the 2014 Handmade Gelatin Dry Plate Making Workshop?
The course description indicates that students will make a silver bromide emulsion suitable for plates to be used in the camera but does not mention the experience of coating, photographing, and printing. Is this a separate workshop?

The 2013 workshop looked most interesting.

Regards,

George

 

[Photo Engineer]

George, they did all of it in previous workshops. From start to finish.

PE

 

[lunarcaustic]

Thank you.

By the way I purchased your book and DVD's - I'm Hooked! I first developed film and enlarged photos in 1970. In 2010 I purchased a Crown Graphic on Ebay and rejoined the hobby. I really missed the hobby for all of those years. As a Chemical Engineer the topic of VAg and the science behind it is interesting. I have found several patents, applications and papers from RIT that describe the process. I have also read all of your posts on this site. I have even obtained the Computer programs Kodak once used to control the reaction - fascinating stuff.

I hope to make the August Workshop. My wife suggested it as a Christmas gift.


Regards,
George

 

[Photo Engineer]

What is the name of the conputer program? Just curious as there were several due to having some computers obsoleted. They also differed according to scale.

There was also a set of programs that allowed for the design of emulsions in the office which then wrote code for the various computers.

Thanks for buying the book and DVD. I hope it works out well for you. The RIT papers are not as "deep" as the patents. I suggest some of the patents in the book by Lin et al. And Judd et. al. In some of them they are co-inventors.

PE