Orwo planning return to colour production

[AgX]

... I could certainly see there being a case that if the Mortsel coater was a 6-layer per pass machine (fine for cinema print stock etc), that 2 passes was good for up to early 90's technology emulsions, but the need to go beyond that would have required a costly investment in both emulsions and coating,...
What's never been clear to me is how many Agfa coating plants for photographic materials (as opposed to offset plates etc) there were at the time - Mortsel, Leverkusen, another one in Germany whose location I forget, and somewhere in France (seen on boxes of MCC etc).

You speculate that in Mortsel Agfa has no respective coating facility and thus never made modern colour films.

But you also indicate that you do not know where all in the world Agfa had coating facilities, and where you know, you cannot even name the places, let alone say how many coating machines of what kind they had.

 

[Lachlan Young]

You speculate that in Mortsel Agfa has no respective coating facility and thus never made modern colour films.

But you also indicate that you do not know where all in the world Agfa had coating facilities, and where you know, you cannot even name the places, let alone say how many coating machines of what kind they had.

No, what I'm saying is that Mortsel has a coating facility of undefined multilayer capacity, but which seems likely not to be as capable of delivering as many layers as the German Agfa plants which coated later colour negative films until they shut. If the Mortsel coater is/ was capable of 6 layers/ pass and two passes, that would enable a maximum of 12 layer coatings to be done. It would also be very capable of running cinema colour print film coatings without problems as they are almost all 6-layer. If Inoviscoat's machine (and Agfa's latter film structures) are any indication of the German Agfa coating plants' capacities, being able to deliver 9 layers/ pass & two passes would enable the 14-16 layer (or more) structures of late 1990's emulsions to be made. What is unclear is why Agfa decided to leave the cinema camera film market at a time that their competitors were making investments and moving production of most camera films to a single site - especially as they clearly had the technology.

And regarding Agfa's French plant (Agfa Pont-à-Marcq, that shut down only a few weeks ago? Or somewhere else?), it was where they coated all their FB paper - at least latterly.

 

[AgX]

No, what I'm saying is that Mortsel has a coating facility of undefined multilayer capacity, but which seems likely not to be as capable of delivering as many layers as the German Agfa plants which coated later colour negative films until they shut. If the Mortsel coater is/ was capable of 6 layers/ pass and two passes, that would enable a maximum of 12 layer coatings to be done. It would also be very capable of running cinema colour print film coatings without problems as they are almost all 6-layer. If Inoviscoat's machine (and Agfa's latter film structures) are any indication of the German Agfa coating plants' capacities, being able to deliver 9 layers/ pass & two passes would enable the 14-16 layer (or more) structures of late 1990's emulsions to be made. What is unclear is why Agfa decided to leave the cinema camera film market at a time that their competitors were making investments and moving production of most

-) for most emulsion coating machines in the world the exact paramaters were not published

-) for most colour films the exact layering was not published

-) for no colour film exact coating procedures were published

Thus on this one typically can only speculate, as long as resorting to public information.

I know both the Mortsel and the Leverkusen plant from inside. That is beyond the office. I negotiated both with engineers and managers.
I thus know about the basic workflow applied on their colour materials.

Already in 2006 Agfa announced that from then on they will make the full portfolio of their colour films in Mortsel.

 

[cmacd123]

Maybe so, but I don't think that really explains why colour neg for cinema never really shifted over to an anti-halation underlayer - or kept the rem-jet and added an anti-halation underlayer - I suspect that the high degree of mechanical protection it offers is/ was important. Cinema print film has an anti-halation underlayer and no rem-jet.

REM-Jet also is conductive, which is important when the film is moving at 90 feet a minute and one staic Discharge could ruin a megabux shot.

the Print film dis at one time have rem jet in some lines. the current 2383/3383 has a transparent process survivable anti static layer. this allowed the revision of the ECP process to omit the remjet removal step, and it's accociated wash step. the soundtrack redevelop step was also removed resulting is Dye sound tracks that required all theatres to update the sound reader. That also allowed to removal of a wash step. Problem is that Southern California was the major site for print production, and water is always tight their. One lab (forget which one now) moved their North American release print operation to Mirabel Quebec, to get plentiful water and easy access to air shipping to get around that problem

 

[cmacd123]

-
Already in 2006 Agfa announced that from then on they will make the full portfolio of their colour films in Mortsel.

I recall seeing cans of Agfa Colour Negative marked "Made in Belgium" for example : https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/agfa-film-xt-320-16mm-122m-400ft-466759378

 

[AgX]

Well, to my understanding even Agulliver does not doubt that. His doubts are on the period froom the vanishing of Agfa cine camera-film up to today.

The Mortsel plant had been modified for this. Not clear though is whether that decision was made when it was decided to sell the Leverkusen plant or when that plant actually went under.

 

[foc]

The Orwo colour C41 film from the early 1990s, did they get any help from Agfa with their emulsions/coatings/etc?
A bit like Trabant cars got a VW engine in the early 1990s.

I have done a little research on Google but all I found was some examples of OrwoQRS.
Any more details would be much appreciated.

 

[AgX]

As I said, the change from the Orwo proprietary processes to C-41 had been long in the planning, but it was neither funded nor welcomed by their major clientele. With the collapse of the Eastern-Block governments and the resulting economic crises their major markets fell off including even their national market, the same time they had to pay bills from one day to the other in DM; but had no foot yet on hard-currency markets, were western manufacturers had their claims.
Why should Agfa assist them in any way? Agfa management had no interest in the Orwo plant, even ridiculed their productivity.
The same question you could raise with Kodak.

Another aspect never discussed is the strong flemish influence on Agfa since the 80's. Bayer already in the 90's lost interest in the photographic business, a process that ended in 1998 since when Agfa is as true belgian firm.


By the way, there were only few cases anyway where international manufacturers took over plants in the East of Germany they once had been affiliated with.

The result was a major change in the east-german industrial landscape that remains until today, even visible in patent applications.

 

[foc]

As I said, the change from the Orwo proprietary processes to C-41 had been long in the planning, but it was neither funded nor welcomed by their major clientele. With the collapse of the Eastern-Block governments and the resulting economic crises their major markets fell off including even their national market, the same time they had to pay bills from one day to the other in DM; but had no foot yet on hard-currency markets, were western manufacturers had their claims.
Why should Agfa assist them in any way? Agfa management had no interest in the Orwo plant, even ridiculed their productivity.
The same question you could raise with Kodak.

Another aspect never discussed is the strong flemish influence on Agfa since the 80's. Bayer already in the 90's lost interest in the photographic business, a process that ended in 1998 since when Agfa is as true belgian firm.


By the way, there were only few cases anyway where international manufacturers took over plants in the East of Germany they once had been affiliated with.

The result was a major change in the east-german industrial landscape that remains until today, even visible in patent applications.

Thank you for the insight, it is very hard to get information like this.

Was the Orwo QRS (C41), mentioned before, made by Orwo in Wolfen, to their own formula or was it rebranded film?

 

[BMbikerider]

Do I hear affordable 100 foot bulk rolls of C-41 maybe? If not, can ORWO make it happen please?

The bulk load would be great I can then load cassettes with 24 exp which is usually what I expose during an outing and then process it as a complete film. It was a sad day when Agfa stopped making it in bulk rolls.

 

[Prest_400]

Getting back from this thread as I casually ran into a post in social media from an Orwo themed (official?) account.

As a 100+ year old company, ORWO has had a long and varied history, and in 2020 was proud to announce the reunification of the IP, recipes, brand, R&D and production; for the first time in 50 years.

ORWO’s legendary films are now finally all in one place and its fan base are now eagerly waiting for the return of our medium-format film stocks and the introduction of our new, ground-breaking Cine and archiving stocks.

Colour is not explicitly mentioned but medium format is, which is quite interesting.

 

[AgX]

This is no site of Filmotec.

 

[Prest_400]

This is no site of Filmotec.

With the newer communication channels it can be quite difficult to discern some news, which is more hype and speculation. Paul, the Japanese distributor hinted at some new things going on in Orwo and points to the account I previously linked. I do wonder how the situation for a 120 batch would be, if Lomo supposedly sources Orwo film for their Potsdam and Berlin products.
Nowadays Instagram and Youtube is huge for the (younger) film photography demographic. I'm rather baffled at the latter, as sitting down to watch videos does take a lot of time off shooting and darkroom.

 

[K25]

The old ORWO colour film stock was nothing more than old AGFA process colour stock and Soviet Svema colour which used equipment dismantled from the Agfa-Wolfen Factory after World War II.

 

[AgX]

The old ORWO colour film stock was nothing more than old AGFA process colour stock and Soviet Svema colour which used equipment dismantled from the Agfa-Wolfen Factory after World War II.

-) The "old AGFA process colour" was used by western Agfa too. They were worldwide one of the latest to change over to Kodak pronciples and processes.
-) ORWO did change over to C-41

 

[AgX]

With the newer communication channels it can be quite difficult to discern some news, which is more hype and speculation. Paul, the Japanese distributor hinted at some new things going on in Orwo and points to the account I previously linked.

Anyone can make an Instagram site and post street-view photos of the Filmotec building, and film-cans and amalgamate them with a variety of photos showing old-ORWO products. Filmotec would likely use the logo they use otherwise.

As explained by me until a few months ago Filmotec only bothered about B2B and they kept a most low-profile.
Even in a partnership with Inoviscoat the lack all forms of amateur conversions, they thus would need a partner manufacturer.

 

[mohmad khatab]

When you write about a mere possibility that a third company may produce a color film from afar.
By that, you crossed the red lines.
- You have no right to speculate ,,
You have no right to dream.
You have no right to be optimistic.
- You are not entitled to mention a third name other than (Kodak and Fuji).
Being daring to utter a third name, this is how you attacked the Holy of Holies.
- You will find someone who objects to you with all his strength and with all the real and fake evidence and boasts of his personal relationship with all photographic manufacturing companies and his personal relationship with all employees of those companies from the first (the office boy) to the two heads of the board of directors,
- He will tell you that the rational economic side completely rejects such an investment marred by a lot of risks, and that any clever investor will not think of financing such a project,
Although this clever investor is the same who has been supporting Amazon for more than ten years and it is achieving annual losses, and with that he did not hesitate to give it all the support and did not run away because he had a long-term view and now Amazon has reached the break-even point and climbed to the profit runway. And it will continue to climb ,,
- All this is permissible, but with photography, it is a taboo.
- You will find someone who tells you that all the painting machines that must be available to produce these photographic materials are no longer available in the universe because the inhabitants of Jupiter land at night and take those equipment, even terrorizing everyone who thinks about recycling these machines, and that the leader of Jupiter He sent a strong-worded warning promising that if any person or institution dared he would not hesitate to send meteors the size of Venus to destroy the Earth and who was on it, and accordingly, humanity loving humans refuse to manufacture these machines or repair the damaged ones in order to save Our planet.

- Well ,, I now completely believe that saving the planet is much more important than producing a color movie for a third company ,, I love my family and my children ,, let the photography go to hell.

Oh man, for God's sake let's dream ,,
I swear, your stake in Kodak and Fuji will not be affected, trust me.

 

[Film-Niko]

This is no site of Filmotec.

That is wrong. It is their instagram account. Which can be easily seen by reading their comments on all their postings there.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I do wonder how the situation for a 120 batch would be, if Lomo supposedly sources Orwo film for their Potsdam and Berlin products.

More importantly, Lomo either have or have direct access to 135 and 120 confectioning/ packaging facilities - and have a close working relationships with Inoviscoat/ Filmotec - thus it's not hard to see what is being hinted at in terms of medium format offerings etc. If this means that a return of 'real' Agfapan APX 100 in 135/ 120 is on the cards, that'd be great news.

 

[Wayne]

We desperately need competition in the color negative film department, I don't even care how crappy (unless its too crappy to be competitive, of course). Oh how I wish ORWO or for that matter anyoneWO would make something.

 

[AgX]

That is wrong. It is their instagram account. Which can be easily seen by reading their comments on all their postings there.

I can't read their comments. All I see is a nonsense statement as "ORWO’s legendary films are now finally all in one place."

 

[K25]

-) The "old AGFA process colour" was used by western Agfa too. They were worldwide one of the latest to change over to Kodak pronciples and processes.
-) ORWO did change over to C-41

Good friend of mine is from former Yugoslavia. He used to work for the Fotokemika plant (Efke). According to him, by the late 70's all stock sold under the name Orwo were either from Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia.

 

[AgX]

More importantly, Lomo either have or have direct access to 135 and 120 confectioning/ packaging facilities - and have a close working relationships with Inoviscoat/ Filmotec - thus it's not hard to see what is being hinted at in terms of medium format offerings etc. If this means that a return of 'real' Agfapan APX 100 in 135/ 120 is on the cards, that'd be great news.

To put this into perspective: Filmotec already when Inoviscoat took interest in them spoke of rollfilm production, but since over two years that had not materialized and there was no more heard of that idea. And all their following statements went into a different direction.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Good friend of mine is from former Yugoslavia. He used to work for the Fotokemika plant (Efke). According to him, by the late 70's all stock sold under the name Orwo were either from Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia.

Extremely unlikely.

 

[K25]

Extremely unlikely.

All of its colour stock got imported mainly from the USSR. Regarding B&W, why not? Due to costly ‘consumer socialism’ and continuous trade deficits with the West, GDR's balance of payments crisis was aggravated towards the end of the 1970s. Facing a Western ‘credit boycott’, in spring 1982 bankruptcy seemed unavoidable to many of the GDR’s economic experts. However, after the adoption of several emergency measures, solvency was secured in the short-run and finally the loans negotiated by Bavarian Prime Minister Franz Josef Strauss in 1983/84 released the GDR from the acute debt crisis. In late 70's they almost had no money to produce anything. But since the state was heavily under prism, possession of film material was important. Therefore it is highly likely that GDR imported stock from other socialist countries with far better production stability.