Origins of Jean Fage two-bath film developer

[Pixophrenic]

The second bath is similar to a 5x diluted solution of Crawley's FX-4, which is speed increasing.
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/fx4.htm

Alan, could you point to your source of FX-4, since in mine it contains copious amounts of sulfite, which would change the pH (Fage's A+B is about pH 10) and bromide, so the similarity is only that it contains metol, HQ and phenidone at similar concentrations. Historically, could JF borrow the idea from Crawley?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

FX-4 is not a commercial product. The recipe is on the net.You will have to mix your own.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Crawley, BJP Dec 16 1960 p684:
"In FX-4 the Metol-phenidone-hydroquinone combination is used.This reduces overall contrast and allows the shadows to increase in contrast more than FX-3 by the time normal gammas are reached: speed increase over D76 is now 50-60%, roughly equivalent to Microphen.The presence of metol also assists discrimination in the highlights, which in some PQ developers are liable, the author finds, to "run away"."
The Jean Fage developer uses the same combination so one may speculate that it will show a similar effect on contrast and speed although the pH and sulfite are different.

 

[john_s]

The second bath is similar to a 5x diluted solution of Crawley's FX-4, which is speed increasing.
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/fx4.htm

Good to see a link to jackspcs which disappeared for a time. Beware of errors in formulas though!

 

[Pixophrenic]

Crawley, BJP Dec 16 1960 p684:
"In FX-4 the Metol-phenidone-hydroquinone combination is used.This reduces overall contrast and allows the shadows to increase in contrast more than FX-3 by the time normal gammas are reached: speed increase over D76 is now 50-60%, roughly equivalent to Microphen.The presence of metol also assists discrimination in the highlights, which in some PQ developers are liable, the author finds, to "run away"."
The Jean Fage developer uses the same combination so one may speculate that it will show a similar effect on contrast and speed although the pH and sulfite are different.

Thank you very much, Alan, for the reference. In fact, what I am looking for, is a similarly exact reference for the JF developer. I downloaded this article of Crawley and a couple of its installments that follow in later issues, I think it spreads to mid-January 1961, and it was very educational. However, in the first installment the formulary is promised to come at the end of the article, but I could not locate it. Some formulas are embedded in the text, but not all.
Correction: the formulary is actually found at :
Crawley, Geoffrey W . The British Journal of Photography (Archive : 1860-2005) ; London 108.5245 (Jan
27, 1961): 38-41, 49.
Having read this article I think that Crawley can certainly be credited for introducing developers with 3 developing agents, and among them metol, HQ and phenidone combo, but the <ratios> used in JF developer do not mimic any of the FXs. Incidentally, the other developer attributed to Fage, was a concentrated phenidon-HQ-glycin. which indeed closely matches FX2. I picked up the latter from a web page which is now gone. From the timeline, Fage could have read the FX publications, but his formula does not closely follow any of the FXs and he is not as focused on Crawley's idea of obligatory 100 g/L or more of sodium sulfite. Also, it is my impression that Crawley tended to emphasize borax as a preferential alkaline buffer, while JF is not alien to using carbonate.
Another idea is that bath A here is probably not only intended for development, but also to exploit the difference in "induction period", which puts metol ahead of HQ, i.e.pre-soak film with metol and then transfer it into a more alkaline solution with the other two developing agents. Unfortunately. the Jacobsens' book devotes very little space to discussion of induction period, but one learns that PPD and derivatives have practically no induction period, metol and phenidone seem to have a short one and dihydroxybenzenes have the longest one. Subsequently, in bath A+B we get (working concentrations) metol 0.75 g/L, HQ 0.75 g/L and phenidone 0.05 g/L. Metol/HQ ratio is supposed to give a soft working MQ developer and additional phenidone increases the overall activity, so such a combination does not seem to be borrowed anywhere from Crawley.

 

[Pixophrenic]

Technically this developer would be a divided developer and not a two bath one. Their use was once fairly common before VC papers but usually to control contrast.

That is brilliant, Gerald. I did not realize this immediately. Now, after reading Crawley, I found that he viewed phenidone mostly as a stabilizer for other developing agents. Jacobsons' book also dismisses phenidone as a developer on its own right. Curious. This may be one reason why many of Crawley's formulas contain three developing agents, JF formula can be viewed as a divided soft MQ developer (M:Q=1) with a little phenidone added as a stabilizer.
Unfortunately, this does not bring us closer to JF formula original source.

 

[Pixophrenic]

Good luck to you, I say. I only recently became aware of the Jean Fage developer, so have nothing to contribute specific to your search for information (though I do have some photo development books in French that I'll go thumb through). I like the idea of your trying to keep the information from being lost -- that's very laudable. And I do look forward to any improvements to JF developer you might suggest.

Could you, Sir, browse though the following
Pierre Glafkidès. Chimie et physique photographiques [4° éd.]. Publications Photo-Cinéma Paul Montel, 1976, 1033p. ? Perhaps it is there.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Where did you get the BJP archive online? All I can find is this:
http://tls.search.proquest.com/titl...itecture+Archive&format=html&IDString=1008719
I don't like to discuss if nobody else can see it.
Yes it would be interesting to trace anything on Jean Fage.

 

[Pixophrenic]

Where did you get the BJP archive online? All I can find is this:
http://tls.search.proquest.com/titl...itecture+Archive&format=html&IDString=1008719
I don't like to discuss if nobody else can see it.
Yes it would be interesting to trace anything on Jean Fage.

I thought I was at a disadvantage as some of you guys may keep the actual issues of BJP of 1960 and 1961, so I asked a friend to retrieve Crawley's articles from our University library online. The famous Crawley article spreads over 7 issues and perhaps is available somewhere in open access, but I chose the easiest road for myself. If not, perhaps it is time to ask the publisher for a permission to put it in the Internet Library. for example. Alan, your link leads to a page where I can see the link for BJP complete archive, but one needs institutional access to ProQuest to go further.

 

[Alan Johnson]

I reported the above post requesting Admin to ask if Photrio could be included as an Institution allowing login to the BJP archive.
I agree it would be helpful to have access to this. Sorry to take your thread off topic for a bit.

 

[Ian Grant]

Thank you very much, Alan, for the reference. In fact, what I am looking for, is a similarly exact reference for the JF developer. I downloaded this article of Crawley and a couple of its installments that follow in later issues, I think it spreads to mid-January 1961, and it was very educational. However, in the first installment the formulary is promised to come at the end of the article, but I could not locate it. Some formulas are embedded in the text, but not all.
Correction: the formulary is actually found at :
Crawley, Geoffrey W . The British Journal of Photography (Archive : 1860-2005) ; London 108.5245 (Jan
27, 1961): 38-41, 49.
Having read this article I think that Crawley can certainly be credited for introducing developers with 3 developing agents, and among them metol, HQ and phenidone combo, but the <ratios> used in JF developer do not mimic any of the FXs. Incidentally, the other developer attributed to Fage, was a concentrated phenidon-HQ-glycin. which indeed closely matches FX2. I picked up the latter from a web page which is now gone. From the timeline, Fage could have read the FX publications, but his formula does not closely follow any of the FXs and he is not as focused on Crawley's idea of obligatory 100 g/L or more of sodium sulfite. Also, it is my impression that Crawley tended to emphasize borax as a preferential alkaline buffer, while JF is not alien to using carbonate.
Another idea is that bath A here is probably not only intended for development, but also to exploit the difference in "induction period", which puts metol ahead of HQ, i.e.pre-soak film with metol and then transfer it into a more alkaline solution with the other two developing agents. Unfortunately. the Jacobsens' book devotes very little space to discussion of induction period, but one learns that PPD and derivatives have practically no induction period, metol and phenidone seem to have a short one and dihydroxybenzenes have the longest one. Subsequently, in bath A+B we get (working concentrations) metol 0.75 g/L, HQ 0.75 g/L and phenidone 0.05 g/L. Metol/HQ ratio is supposed to give a soft working MQ developer and additional phenidone increases the overall activity, so such a combination does not seem to be borrowed anywhere from Crawley.

Don't overate Crawley, his series of articles is good his formulae less so, Most of the Paterson developers sold (all Crawley fomulae) were nowhere as good as Ilford, Kodak,and Agfa equivalent products.

Through work mid 1980's I met a photo-chemist who'd had to mix his commercial formulae for"Paterson" production and he was quite scathing, he he'd normally been making rather well known chemistry mostly still in production, by by then was in charge of research.

Ian

 

[Gerald C Koch]

When used phenidone produces images of low VERY contrast. The POTA developer designed to take pictures of atom bomb tests permits a 24 stop contrast range. For general purpose photography you need another developing agent like hydroquinone or ascorbic acid. Such a combination creates normal contrast.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Don't overate Crawley, his series of articles is good his formulae less so, Most of the Paterson developers sold (all Crawley fomulae) were nowhere as good as Ilford, Kodak,and Agfa equivalent products.

Through work mid 1980's I met a photo-chemist who'd had to mix his commercial formulae for"Paterson" production and he was quite scathing, he he'd normally been making rather well known chemistry mostly still in production, by by then was in charge of research.

Ian

Crawley was not a chemist and his formulas often miss the mark. But at least he tested his formulas which is mare than can be said of some of the stuff seen on APUG.

 

[Pixophrenic]

I reported the above post requesting Admin to ask if Photrio could be included as an Institution allowing login to the BJP archive.
I agree it would be helpful to have access to this. Sorry to take your thread off topic for a bit.

No problem at all. I'd wish all users of this forum were able to read Crawley's original text. It is very educational and at times amusing, and in my humble opinion is the right thing to do, if only to prevent one from re-inventing the wheel. I am very grateful to Alan that he provided the initial reference to me.

 

[Ian Grant]

Crawley was not a chemist and his formulas often miss the mark. But at least he tested his formulas which is mare than can be said of some of the stuff seen on APUG.

That raises an interesting point, Crawley's work was methodical and quite detailed, it was for something more than its initial publication, it's academic but lacks citations.

Ian

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The are several developers that use both metol and phenidone such as Perfection XR-1 and one formulation of Neufin Blue. Then there was Chrone Additive a solution of phenidone designed to be added to D-76 to obtain better tonal gradation

 

[Gerald C Koch]

That raises an interesting point, Crawley's work was methodical and quite detailed, it was for something more than its initial publication, it's academic but lacks citations.

Ian

Yes that's a good summation.

 

[Pixophrenic]

The are several developers that use both metol and phenidone such as Perfection XR-1 and one formulation of Neufin Blue. Then there was Chrone Additive a solution of phenidone designed to be added to D-76 to obtain better tonal gradation

This is an interesting note, because I am thinking along the lines of having H&W Control, discussed elsewhere, with additional HQ concentrated solution to be added in increments to suit individual film or taste. Similarly, substituted p-phenylendiamine based developers can be "spiced" with HQ, as in fact Crawley elaborates in one of the sections of the article that was mentioned above. Excessively soft negatives, in my opinion, may prove useful in hybrid workflows, when the film is scanned or digitally copied (sorry if this is out of place).

 

[Murray Kelly]

I am back from my sojourn in France. I did a pdf. of the series of 1960-1 for anyone who wants them. My apologies for the quality of the job, however. Best PM me.

 

[Pixophrenic]

I am back from my sojourn in France. I did a pdf. of the series of 1960-1 for anyone who wants them. My apologies for the quality of the job, however. Best PM me.

I think I have a better idea. Why couldn't we ask the current editor of BJP if they could release it in public domain?

 

[Pixophrenic]

I think I have a better idea. Why couldn't we ask the current editor of BJP if they could release it in public domain?

Current BJP editor, Simon Bainbridge
T. +44(0)20 8123 6873
editorial@bjphoto.co.uk

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The Crawley formulas also appeared in one perhaps two BJP annuals. They started with the 1972 edition.


I have the English edition of Glafkides and don't remember seeing any reference to a two bath Fage developer. In fact I have a whole shelf of technical books on photography and cannot remember this developer being mentioned in any of them. I am sure that the unique method of use would have caught my eye. It would be very unusual for a 'home brew' developer from a fashion photographer to make it into any technical publication.

 

[Chris Livsey]

I contribute to a small publication (circulation) on personal photography in the UK http://www.inscapephotography.co.uk/ and having found a rather interesting paper
‘Becoming a Raven’: Self-Representation, Narration, and Metaphor in Fukase Masahisa's ‘Karasu’ Photographs
published in a rather obscure academic journal:
Japanese Studies
Volume number: 29
Issue number: 2
Year of publication: 2009
Requested permission rights to reproduce the article, this was the reply:

Thank you for your request.
For print rights for the whole article there will be a fee of £482.30+VAT.
Please let me know how you would like to proceed.
Kind Regards
Jo Bateman – Permissions Administrator, Journals

Now it may be that the BJP will look more kindly on a request from a much longer time ago and there is certainly no harm asking but don't hold your breath.

 

[Pixophrenic]

I contribute to a small publication (circulation) on personal photography in the UK http://www.inscapephotography.co.uk/ and having found a rather interesting paper
‘Becoming a Raven’: Self-Representation, Narration, and Metaphor in Fukase Masahisa's ‘Karasu’ Photographs
published in a rather obscure academic journal:
Japanese Studies
Volume number: 29
Issue number: 2
Year of publication: 2009
Requested permission rights to reproduce the article, this was the reply:

Thank you for your request.
For print rights for the whole article there will be a fee of £482.30+VAT.
Please let me know how you would like to proceed.
Kind Regards
Jo Bateman – Permissions Administrator, Journals

Now it may be that the BJP will look more kindly on a request from a much longer time ago and there is certainly no harm asking but don't hold your breath.

May I remind you that we are talking about a publication of 1960? Anyway, if I am the only one who shows interest, it will most likely fail to convince them it is time to "declassify" Crawley's formulas.

 

[Chris Livsey]

May I remind you that we are talking about a publication of 1960? .

You may