Origins of Jean Fage two-bath film developer

Pixophrenic · Oct 6, 2017

Dear colleagues, as I mentioned that one of the developers successful in "taming" Rollei Retro 80S" was the two-bath developer of Jean Fage, I hesitated to get a related question mixed with the thread. The origins of this developer are a bit of a mystery to me. Perhaps French colleagues are listening in and could help. All of my attempts to contact the Musee francais de la photograhie in Bievres, that Fage founded in the 1964 failed. All I could find is a bulletin in French "Terres d'Images" , which is sold as a bibliographic rarity by AbeBooks and I am not even quite sure which issue, as Fage contributed to two issues in 1964. There is a Flickr group dedicated to this developer but it is dead. The original text will obviously be in French, but this is not a problem. It is just that I am intrigued that none of the photographers that I approached online knew for sure where it comes from. To be exact, I am talking about a two bath developer, which is like a dilute D-23 in the first bath, and a dilute PQ developer with potassium carbonate (added into the first bath, not used following it) as the second bath. There is apparently another, phenidone-glycin 1-bath formula, also attributed to Jean Fage.

Alan Johnson · Oct 6, 2017

http://www.digitaltruth.com/data/formula.php?FormulaID=179
Carbonate is in the B bath.

Pixophrenic · Oct 6, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
http://www.digitaltruth.com/data/formula.php?FormulaID=179
Carbonate is in the B bath.

Correct, but the processing order is A bath 1:19, then add B 1:19 to A bath, pour back and continue. Rather unusual, I know.

Pat Erson · Oct 6, 2017

Found this :

Développeur de Jean Fage

Rp. : )
Solution A

metol............15 g
Na-SO3 .........90 g
water ........ ad 1 l

Solution B

Phenidone..... 1 g
Hydroquinone 15 g
Na-SO3 ......... 75 g
K-CO3 ........... 30 g
water ............ad 1 l

Misce. Signa. (Mix and Label)

1. Take 20 ml sol. A + 380 ml water. 20 centigrades (KB format)
or 25 ml A + 475 ml water (MF)

2. Processing time - 7 min. Keep in intervals of 30 s.

3. Add to the tank 20 ml (25 ml for MF) sol. B

4. Processing time - 6 min for films up to 100 ASA
8 min for film 200 to 400 ASA
longer for higher sensitivity : )

The developer is intended for single shot processing.
The concentrate is stable in half-filled bottles for 1 year.

http://35mm-compact.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=34682&start=120

Ian Grant · Oct 6, 2017

2 bath development goes back way before that, more than 25 years. I'd need to check my records, there's nothing new but Leitz 2 bath is pre WWII (I mean 1939 not when the US joined in later). The Leitz 2 bath wasn't the firstbthough.

Ian

Pixophrenic · Oct 6, 2017

Ian Grant said:
2 bath development goes back way before that, more than 25 years. I'd need to check my records, there's nothing new but Leitz 2 bath is pre WWII (I mean 1939 not when the US joined in later). The Leitz 2 bath wasn't the firstbthough.

Ian

I am sorry but I am not looking to find who first suggested a 2-bath development, even though "origins" implies that as well, I mean where a specific formula was first published in the original language (presumably French, even though Fage was a Hungarian by descent).

Pixophrenic · Oct 6, 2017

Pat Erson said:
Found this :

Développeur de Jean Fage

Rp. : )
Solution A

<skipped redundant part>

The developer is intended for single shot processing.
The concentrate is stable in half-filled bottles for 1 year.

http://35mm-compact.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=34682&start=120

Thank you Pat, but this is not the original publication. Besides, Anton Caro who contributed this post never replied to my emails.

pentaxuser · Oct 6, 2017

I take it that your quest is original publications, still in the original language. Anything else is irrelevant and you wish to avoid wasting your time and that of the posters who may not be in a position to point you to the source?

That's fine and I am all for producing direct concise answers to direct questions but I suspect that people may not have realised the narrow nature of your quest

Can I ask, just out of curiosity, is this research for its own sake or is there an application in terms of negative development that you seek that such a source might give?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Pixophrenic · Oct 6, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I take it that your quest is original publications, still in the original language. Anything else is irrelevant and you wish to avoid wasting your time and that of the posters who may not be in a position to point you to the source?

That's fine and I am all for producing direct concise answers to direct questions but I suspect that people may not have realised the narrow nature of your quest

Can I ask, just out of curiosity, is this research for its own sake or is there an application in terms of negative development that you seek that such a source might give?

Thanks

pentaxuser

First of all, I would like to know what was in the original publication beside the formula, what was the motivation? Jean Fage apparently was a rather well known fashion photographer of his time, but not a photochemist, so the original article may contain a clue to how he arrived at this formula. Correct me, if I am wrong, but most two-bath developers have bath A formula where development does not happen or goes on only very slowly, while the second bath contains only the alkaline buffer, where most of the development happens. Ansel Adams even suggests cycling the film several times through a two-bath process. This one is different, it contains dilute developers of different qualities, wherein the bath A developer is added to the bath B developer. Such developers are not even covered in the 1973 Jacobsons' edition and perhaps it constitutes some kind of "heresy", but it works, it achieves above average compensating effect.
Why am I doing this? To some extent because I do not want it to be lost in time, because it works and is easy to source, at least today. The other reason is that I think I can improve on its qualities (and on some other, more common developers) and publish a little technical note, in which case I need to properly acknowledge the source. To this end, I was able to easily locate the origins of nearly every developer I was interested in, but this one is a mystery. No one knows anything about its origins. For a researcher (my main profession) this is exciting.
And, BTW, I welcome contributions generally related to two-bath developers here, but I am afraid that the discussion would veer off the original topic very easily. My hope is that due to the international audience of this group someone from France would be able to provide new info.

Trask · Oct 6, 2017

Good luck to you, I say. I only recently became aware of the Jean Fage developer, so have nothing to contribute specific to your search for information (though I do have some photo development books in French that I'll go thumb through). I like the idea of your trying to keep the information from being lost -- that's very laudable. And I do look forward to any improvements to JF developer you might suggest.

Ian Grant · Oct 7, 2017

You can narrow your search considerably because Phenidone wasn't available commercially from Ilford until 1953. I didn't look closely at the developer formula last night and it's way different to a typical two bath "split" developer where the film is immersed in the developing agent in part A then moved to the alkali bath which is Part B.

This is based on the two separate developer technique more typically used for controlling contrast with graded papers where initial development takes place in a Soft working developer (say ID-3 or D165) then a contrast developer, although in this case it's more like dilute D23 followed by a more active PQ developer. This formula was never published in the annual British Journal Photographic Almanac which usually included interesting developers published in foreign publications (inc French).

I wonder if it was first devised for taming contrast with 35mm micro-copy films, there was a lot of interest in using these very fine grain, high resolution, but high contrast films for continuous tone use in the very late 1960's and even more so in the mid 1970's, perhaps also for use with Technical Pan.

Ian

Pixophrenic · Oct 7, 2017

Ian Grant said:
You can narrow your search considerably because Phenidone wasn't available commercially from Ilford until 1953. I didn't look closely at the developer formula last night and it's way different to a typical two bath "split" developer where the film is immersed in the developing agent in part A then moved to the alkali bath which is Part B.

This is based on the two separate developer technique more typically used for controlling contrast with graded papers where initial development takes place in a Soft working developer (say ID-3 or D165) then a contrast developer, although in this case it's more like dilute D23 followed by a more active PQ developer. This formula was never published in the annual British Journal Photographic Almanac which usually included interesting developers published in foreign publications (inc French).

I wonder if it was first devised for taming contrast with 35mm micro-copy films, there was a lot of interest in using these very fine grain, high resolution, but high contrast films for continuous tone use in the very late 1960's and even more so in the mid 1970's, perhaps also for use with Technical Pan.

Ian

Thank you, Ian. Your idea that Fage cold have borrowed the two-bath sequence from a technique used for paper development is new to me and seems plausible. However, since he was a fashion photographer, it is not likely that he was familiar with or used technical films, but my wild guess would be that he could be looking for something to have more contrast control in studio flash photography. Do you happen to know when umbrella diffusers were first introduced?

Ian Grant · Oct 7, 2017

Jean Fage wasn't a fashion photographer, he was born in Budapest in 1905 and trained as engineer. He was interested in all aspects of photography including, equipment, chemistry and documenting it, he became a collector . He was behind the founding of the French Museum of Photography in Bièvres, his son Andre was the first Curator when it moved into it's own building..

Bearing this in mind there may well have been a use for micro or technical films and a special developer for them to tame the contrast. He was also a member of a camera club.

Photographic reflective and translucent umbrellas go back a long way well before this developer was formulated, some time before WWII, also there were special films for portraiture and fashion into the 1960's to help with more contrasty studio lighting including electronic flash.

The fashion photographer is Una-Jean Fagan who did an MA in Fashion Photography in London 2009, the Jean Fagan we are referring to died in 1991

Ian

Pat Erson · Oct 8, 2017

Thx Ian this is fascinating... If you have more info you'd like to share plz do!

Pixophrenic · Oct 8, 2017

Ian Grant said:
Jean Fage wasn't a fashion photographer, he was born in Budapest in 1905 and trained as engineer. He was interested in all aspects of photography including, equipment, chemistry and documenting it, he became a collector . He was behind the founding of the French Museum of Photography in Bièvres, his son Andre was the first Curator when it moved into it's own building..

Bearing this in mind there may well have been a use for micro or technical films and a special developer for them to tame the contrast. He was also a member of a camera club.

Photographic reflective and translucent umbrellas go back a long way well before this developer was formulated, some time before WWII, also there were special films for portraiture and fashion into the 1960's to help with more contrasty studio lighting including electronic flash.

The fashion photographer is Una-Jean Fagan who did an MA in Fashion Photography in London 2009, the Jean Fagan we are referring to died in 1991

Ian

Ian, does your info come from the following sources, or somewhere else
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Fage
http://www.landrucimetieres.fr/spip/spip.php?article2342
Also, do you imply that the developer we are discussing was somebody else's and Fage presented it somewhere as part of his collector activities? Perhaps at one of the Societe_ francaise_de_photographie conferences? Also, I do not understand what Una-Jean Fagan has to do with all this? A reference to sources would be highly appreciated.

Ian Grant · Oct 8, 2017

I'm on a different PC so can't check my history, I read those two pages but there's another that describes Jean Fage as being a French engineeer, there's quite a few references to him.

I was suggesting Jean Fage may jave formulated the developer eithner for his or the Museums use, or for someone else, and he's based it on the two developer bath technique - but it's unique.

You were suggesting the Jean Fage was a fashion photographer, I was merely pointing out that Una-Jean Fage was a fashion photographer and the only Una-Jean Fage to turn up using Google . John X Berger the witer and photographer added the X to distinguish himself from John Berger the writer and critic who died this year.

Ian

Gerald C Koch · Oct 8, 2017

Technically this developer would be a divided developer and not a two bath one. Their use was once fairly common before VC papers but usually to control contrast.

Ian Grant · Oct 8, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Technically this developer would be a divided developer and not a two bath one. Their use was fairly but usually for papers not films to control contrast.

Part A is a Developer in its own right so it's not a divided (split) developer Gerald, that would imply soaking the film in the developing agents followed by immersion in the alkali, so it's the other way around this is Two bath development first in a dilute low contrast D23 type developer and followed by a more alkaline and contrasty PQ developer.

Ian

Murray Kelly · Oct 8, 2017

The thought occurs that Diafine is somewhat similar. It does actually give an image after thet1st bath and works to completion in the second. There is no mention of a wash between baths
In this case one does not leave the 2nd bath to only develop to completion the metol ,but P and Q add something more for a fixed time in the 2nd bath.
Most intriguing.

Ian Grant · Oct 8, 2017

Murray Kelly said:
The thought occurs that Diafine is somewhat similar. It does actually give an image after thet1st bath and works to completion in the second. There is no mention of a wash between baths
In this case one does not leave the 2nd bath to only develop to completion the metol ,but P and Q add something more for a fixed time in the 2nd bath.
Most intriguing.

I think that Part A of Diafine is acidified with something like Metabisulphite so no development can take place, but the Part A of this Jean Fage developer is like weak D23 as it contains Metol as well as Sodium Sulphite. In a way it's going to act in two ways as the lower contrast developer will have permeated the emulsion and begun develop when the film is placed in the more alkali Part B.

Ian

Murray Kelly · Oct 8, 2017

Ian Grant said:
I think that Part A of Diafine is acidified with something like Metabisulphite so no development can take place, but the Part A of this Jean Fage developer is like weak D23 as it contains Metol as well as Sodium Sulphite. In a way it's going to act in two ways as the lower contrast developer will have permeated the emulsion and begun develop when the film is placed in the more alkali Part B.

Ian

Agreed. The dilute bath 1 is a virtual Beutler. The second bath is the poser.
Almost makes me wonder if one could make a 2 bath with the alkali 1st then the active agent 2nd to do the developing bit and exhaust the carbonate or whatever?

Alan Johnson · Oct 8, 2017

The second bath is similar to a 5x diluted solution of Crawley's FX-4, which is speed increasing.
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/fx4.htm

Murray Kelly · Oct 8, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
The second bath is similar to a 5x diluted solution of Crawley's FX-4, which is speed increasing.
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/fx4.htm

Thank you Alan for keeping it on topic. I was a bit out of order there.
Your observation makes it curiouser and curiouser.
My interest in sub-miniature means I am always keen to find better ways to get pictorial results from micro-film. Could this help, I ask myself.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 8, 2017

Thanks Ian I got them turned around. Not the clearest terminology.

Pixophrenic · Oct 9, 2017

Ian Grant said:
I'm on a different PC so can't check my history, I read those two pages but there's another that describes Jean Fage as being a French engineeer, there's quite a few references to him.

I was suggesting Jean Fage may jave formulated the developer eithner for his or the Museums use, or for someone else, and he's based it on the two developer bath technique - but it's unique.

You were suggesting the Jean Fage was a fashion photographer, I was merely pointing out that Una-Jean Fage was a fashion photographer and the only Una-Jean Fage to turn up using Google . John X Berger the witer and photographer added the X to distinguish himself from John Berger the writer and critic who died this year.

Ian

Ian, your previous post says "Una-Jean Fagan", that is what got me confused.

Origins of Jean Fage two-bath film developer

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