Old Forte paper sheets stuck into a block

[M Carter]

Ahem ** cough ** lith printing ** cough...

(hey, it's old paper, might be lovely with lith!)

 

[bence8810]

Ahem ** cough ** lith printing ** cough...

(hey, it's old paper, might be lovely with lith!)

Never tried Lith - know nothing about it. I'll look it up!

I just got into wet printing this January so all is still pretty new to me.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[gorbas]

Ben, congratulation on your 15+ posts!
Nice Forte stash! Now, you need to use it all and to have fun with it.
I never seen Bromofort in white box with new logo. Any idea when did they stop making them?
Lith can bu fun, there are a few recent threads about it here. Personally haven't tried it yet, but it's on my to do list.
Width of 110.5cm from roll is nice one. Smart!

 

[bence8810]

I never seen Bromofort in white box with new logo. Any idea when did they stop making them?

As far as I am aware - this was the packaging at the time Forte went belly up in 2007 and they started using it in the 90's. I'll try to dig up some info. This is of course for the domestic market - I think the export packages to North America were Golden towards the end. I never had those though but saw them on eBay.

The newer bromofort was much better packed in thick black vinyl.

I also bought at a Japanese auction a 10 sheet pack of 8x10 Polywarmtone that was with Japanese labels so made for this market and it had the same design.

I'll work on that history thing next week and start a new thread.

Ben

 

[gorbas]

From my experience, Forte variable contrast papers had very short shelf life like similar papers from other manufacturers. I had some badly fogged variable contrast Forte but Marco did some nice lith prints with it, haven't seen them, but I trust him.
Today I did some comparison around FD103 too.

 

[bence8810]

So far I've only had one box go bad on me and it was Forte RC paper 18x24cm sized (8x10ish)
This box was from the 90's from the packaging and price indicated and was the only RC paper that I tried.
I have a pack of about 8-9 sheets of Polywamtone FB 40x50cm sized so I better get to it and make sure I use it before it goes bad. The Bromofort seems very stable.

Ben

 

[gorbas]

Ben, please do not worry much about Bromofort, but try to use it sooner than later.
There is comparison between D-72 (diluted 1+2) and Forte FD103

After all, not much difference. Will be nice to see prints developed in each of them side by side.
I'm sure some of our Great APUG Chemical gurus will tell us how big actual difference it is.
D-72 has 4.67g more of Sodium Carbonate
FD-103 has 7g more of Sodium Sulfite and 0.33g of Potassium bromide

 

[bence8810]

Hello,

D-72 is something I haven't tried yet but I did write up a few things and did some tests. I'll post my results later - basically I came to the conclusion that I see nothing much different that would make me use one developer over another. I just therefore stick to FD-103 and even some local Japanese liquid based when I am lazy . It's called Chugai.

See below my recipes.
Ben

Edit: forgot to mention that I did these tests in search for a hard developer as most of my paper are BSP (special) and that is pretty much grade 2 on a Variable contrast scale and I prefer grade 3 usually. What worked at the end was to develop my negatives to high contrast.

 

[gorbas]

D-72 formula should be as close as possible to commercially available Kodak Dektol.
Well, that is very tough decision to give more developing time just to use existing paper, it can bit you back in few years down the road. Film Scanning definitively likes "softer" negatives. Ducking, before AntiDigital police finds me here.
Also your enlarger light source plays significant role in it.

 

[bence8810]

Yes I know that and it's definitely true. I am not developing my negatives longer just use a different developer. I went from TMax developer to R09 and this gives a bit contrastier negatives.
They do scan fine but I generally don't scan negatives only for archival purposes and make a contact scan which I like better than contact prints as I can blow it up on my screen to select the images to be later printed.

I'd say my negatives are rather on the contrasty side but not overdeveloped. I like them like this and I made sure they print fine on normal modern paper albeit at a lower filter value (2 1/2 instead of 3)

I think the photography I do matches higher contrast.

I never tried Dektol but it is readily available in Japan so I could give it a go.

I played a lot with different films and developers before I settled on my current workflow and I have been stable on this for the last 100 roll or so.

Kodak Eastman 5222 (motion film in 400ft rolls) shot at 400 (1 stop push) and developed in Rodinal 1:50 for 11minutes.

I did so much testing - will post some of my test results.

When starting to think of a similar approach for paper development I went though the same steps as I did with film but I saw a lot less variation in the results so I gave up on playing with developers and just use FD-103 mostly.

Maybe I am missing something and surely will learn more as I go. After all I am a toddler when it comes to analog photography - I shot my first roll of film exactly 2 years ago in 2013 Dec and did my first enlargement in January this year.

Do you see clear differences when developing paper with various developers?

Ben

 

[bence8810]

Back to the original topic - I have developed the same frame on the old And new(er) BN paper to see the difference.

Here the difference is not striking as it depends on the light that falls on the paper but wanted to picture them with the boxes.

You can see the yellow stain on the paper that came from the stuck bloc of sheets.



Here you can see the white of the papers. The left one is the modern paper and the right is the old one. Slightly yellowed.



Ben

 

[gorbas]

Ben, back in the day I felt that switching from my then everyday positive developer ORWO N120 to Forte FD103 was right thing to do. It produced distinctly different results, it was way softer. In the last maybe 10 years I mainly use Ilford Bromophen, the same stuff as Kodak Dektol.
Beautiful thing in photography is that you are only responsible for your self (of course if you are not paid to produce pictures and you are working just for your own fun). If you are happy with your negatives, prints and scans, simply go for it. With testing you will find your own path. You are only one in charge. Settling just on one positive developer is great, one less variable in your chain.
Have great light!
PS top paper shows signs of fogging, looks more grey to me than yellow

 

[Wayne]

You may want to throw a dash of benzotriazole into your developer with old paper.

 

[bence8810]

You may want to throw a dash of benzotriazole into your developer with old paper.

Hi Wayne,

How does that work and what amount to add?
I saw it at Freestyle but no shipping overseas. Wonder if I can find it in Japan!!!

Ben

 

[mooseontheloose]

Hi Wayne,

How does that work and what amount to add?
I saw it at Freestyle but no shipping overseas. Wonder if I can find it in Japan!!!

Ben

Yodobashi usually has a good mix of chemicals in the darkroom section, they may have benzotriazole.

 

[bence8810]

PS top paper shows signs of fogging, looks more grey to me than yellow

You are right - it is more grey than yellow. I'll give the Benzotriazole a try if I can find it.
Any suggestions on how to use it?

Yodobashi usually has a good mix of chemicals in the darkroom section, they may have benzotriazole.

I checked in the past and they didn't have it. I'll keep checking to see if I can find some source locally. Otherwise I'll smuggle some in when i travel next.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[Wayne]

Benzotriazole is a restrainer that will help reduce the fog that is almost certainly present in such old paper. I add about 15ml-20 ml of a 2% solution to each liter of developer. You can use even more. The 2% solution lasts "forever".

I don't know if it will be easier to find or import but its also available (old stock) as Kodak Anti-Fog tablets. Try Photographer's Formulary too and see if they'll ship it.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kodak-Anti-Fog-No-1-50-Tablet-Old-Stock-/121819400803?hash=item1c5d008a63:g:mGQAAOSwQTVV-YAJ

Hi Wayne,

How does that work and what amount to add?
I saw it at Freestyle but no shipping overseas. Wonder if I can find it in Japan!!!

Ben

 

[mooseontheloose]

I checked in the past and they didn't have it. I'll keep checking to see if I can find some source locally. Otherwise I'll smuggle some in when i travel next.

Thanks,
Ben

It looks like Photographers Formulary might be able to ship it (there doesn't seem to be any shipping restriction). That's where I got mine, but I brought it with me to Japan from Canada just in airline shipping (along with all my other photo chemicals, paper, and darkroom accessories).

 

[bence8810]

Thanks all for the help!

I found it after all at an only chemical store:

http://www.morimotokasei.co.jp/smartphone/detail.html?id=001001000078

Should this be the same thing? It say 1,2,3 Benzotriazole. It's 100gramms so about 10 times the amount of the Photographers Formulae's solution. Should last me a good 200 years or so?

The 2% solution means what exactly? How much powder do I put into say 1Liter of filtered water?

Thanks,
Ben

Edit: I've now bought the solution from the above link here locally. Photographers Formulary's shipping was a bit expensive and this came out cheaper (and hopefully be here a lot faster too!)

Time for me to read up on the usage of Benzotriazole...

 

[mooseontheloose]

Thanks all for the help!

I found it after all at an only chemical store:

http://www.morimotokasei.co.jp/smartphone/detail.html?id=001001000078

Great link! I've been looking for a place that I could buy chemicals from in Japan, this is a great resource and I've bookmarked it.

 

[bence8810]

Great link! I've been looking for a place that I could buy chemicals from in Japan, this is a great resource and I've bookmarked it.

Glad if it can help you!

I am part of a Dakroom printers' FB group in Japanese that has extremely helpful members. They were the ones pointing me to the right direction.

Just search FB for this "銀塩ウェットプロセス・モノクロ写真"

Ben

 

[removed account4]

hi

this might help with your diltion problem
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
2% means 2 parts one thing 98 parts another,
like 10% is 10 parts something 90 parts something else
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

good luck !

 

[bence8810]

hi

this might help with your diltion problem
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
2% means 2 parts one thing 98 parts another

good luck !

Thanks for that!
I was aware what 2% means just wasn't sure how that relates to water vs. liquid. Do I go by the measurement in weight or the volume?

I guess to get a liter worth of working solution I'd need to add 20gramms of BZT and 980gramms of water?

Ben

 

[Wayne]

That's the stuff. Mix 2 grams per 100 ml for a 2% solution. Some people use 1% instead. Each 10 ml of the 2% contains .2 grams of benzotriazole.

I used propylene glycol. It's very hard to dissolve in water unless its very hot. It can first be dissolved in ethyl or isopropyl alcohol to make it easier. I don't recall (its been so long since I mixed it) whether it will dissolve directly in propylene glycol or whether I used an isopropyl step.

BTW this might also cool the image tone a bit, and can be used for that purpose as well.

Thanks all for the help!

I found it after all at an only chemical store:

http://www.morimotokasei.co.jp/smartphone/detail.html?id=001001000078

Should this be the same thing? It say 1,2,3 Benzotriazole. It's 100gramms so about 10 times the amount of the Photographers Formulae's solution. Should last me a good 200 years or so?

The 2% solution means what exactly? How much powder do I put into say 1Liter of filtered water?

Thanks,
Ben

Edit: I've now bought the solution from the above link here locally. Photographers Formulary's shipping was a bit expensive and this came out cheaper (and hopefully be here a lot faster too!)

Time for me to read up on the usage of Benzotriazole...

 

[bence8810]

That's the stuff. Mix 2 grams per 100 ml for a 2% solution. Some people use 1% instead. Each 10 ml of the 2% contains .2 grams of benzotriazole.

Thanks!

I used propylene glycol. It's very hard to dissolve in water unless its very hot. It can first be dissolved in ethyl or isopropyl alcohol to make it easier. I don't recall (its been so long since I mixed it) whether it will dissolve directly in propylene glycol or whether I used an isopropyl step.

So you are saying that benzotriazole is hard to dissolve in water unless it's very hot?
I do have 99% isopropyl alcohol so I could try that. Just a few drops?
Or should I just perhaps heat some filtered water up to a boil or just before and then dissolve the powder?
Also usually when I mix developers I add 700ml of water and once all mixed I fill to a liter. Same procedure here?

Thanks,
Benn