Oh no! Not another blix thread!

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pukalo

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I can only say that I have been using the Tetenal E6 kit with blix for about a decade now and always get great looking results. As good as when I used the kodak 6 bath E6 home kits that were once available.
But, I also mix up and process all films in day or two then discard the chemicals.
I used to worry about using blix but not anymore. And the Tetenal kit is so look much easier to use than 6/7 bath kits. Easy mixing ratios and fewer steps.
 

trendland

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I can only say that I have been using the Tetenal E6 kit with blix for about a decade now and always get great looking results. As good as when I used the kodak 6 bath E6 home kits that were once available.
But, I also mix up and process all films in day or two then discard the chemicals.
I used to worry about using blix but not anymore. And the Tetenal kit is so look much easier to use than 6/7 bath kits. Easy mixing ratios and fewer steps.
I will not say anything against - but one question : " What will you do at the time -no kid is any more avaible?" Then you should listen what our two experts here are discussing - because then you have to be an expert for you own in film chemestry!

with regards:wink:
 

Photo Engineer

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Gentlemen, I wish you to consider one thing.

With current demands on bleaching action from modern C41 films, Bleach III is used without dilution, and it uses a stronger bleaching agent than NH4FeEDTA!

I have 2 gallons of "concentrate" right now, and they say to use as is. You won't make a blix from that I guess.

PE
 

Rudeofus

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Bleach III is a pretty dilute soup. There's an RA version of this bleach, which is much, much higher in concentration. I have no idea why Kodak/Fuji would ship standard Bleach III like this, but it's definitely not the solubility limit of Ammonium Ferric PDTA!
 

mshchem

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One other very important point. Manufacturers make these solutions for existing commercial labs. These folks have equipment designed for traditional chemistry. It's all good for Tetenal and others to make a niche product for low volume users.
There's no way labs that do serious commercial work are going to take short cuts. And Noritsu isn't going to invest in new film processing equipment that uses blix.
 

Rudeofus

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You missed part of my point - the one about activity.
You can definitely mix a powerful BLIX from RA version of Bleach III and Ammonium Thiosulfate plus pH adjustment. Rollei actually markets a BLIX made from Ammonium Ferric EDTA, Ammonium Ferric PDTA and Ammonium Thiosulfate.
One other very important point. Manufacturers make these solutions for existing commercial labs. These folks have equipment designed for traditional chemistry. It's all good for Tetenal and others to make a niche product for low volume users.
There's no way labs that do serious commercial work are going to take short cuts. And Noritsu isn't going to invest in new film processing equipment that uses blix.
You are aware, that Tetenal does just that - sell BLIX kits to low volume amateurs, and process chems with separate bleach and fixer to pro labs. AFAIK 5 liter kits were the largest BLIX kits they ever marketed.
 

trendland

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You can definitely mix a powerful BLIX from RA version of Bleach III and Ammonium Thiosulfate plus pH adjustment. Rollei actually markets a BLIX made from Ammonium Ferric EDTA, Ammonium Ferric PDTA and Ammonium Thiosulfate.

You are aware, that Tetenal does just that - sell BLIX kits to low volume amateurs, and process chems with separate bleach and fixer to pro labs. AFAIK 5 liter kits were the largest BLIX kits they ever marketed.

Rollei seams to maket ALL there c41 chems comming from originaly Fuji chems! So does Fuji also market that BLIX ?

with regards
 

Photo Engineer

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Gentlemen, both Fuji and Kodak market a bleach then fix process with intervening washes and a final rinse for C41 and a similar process for E6. This process sequence, using current films, gives the best and most consistent results in seasoned and single use processes that meet or exceed their demands for overall quality.

After about 4 years of R&D into this problem along with dozens of others at EK, with all of their resources behind us, I learned a lot about this problem. Most all of it disagrees with some of the foregoing posts.

I don't think I can keep up with this "conflict" over processing for these color products. I think that I will leave it to the "experts". Good luck to you all and I hope the "experts" are right.

PE
 

Born2Late

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Gentlemen, both Fuji and Kodak market a bleach then fix process with intervening washes and a final rinse for C41 and a similar process for E6. This process sequence, using current films, gives the best and most consistent results in seasoned and single use processes that meet or exceed their demands for overall quality.

After about 4 years of R&D into this problem along with dozens of others at EK, with all of their resources behind us, I learned a lot about this problem. Most all of it disagrees with some of the foregoing posts.

I don't think I can keep up with this "conflict" over processing for these color products. I think that I will leave it to the "experts". Good luck to you all and I hope the "experts" are right.

PE
I understand your frustration. In the 45 years of experience in my field I've run in to similar situations many times. Sometimes, no, usually there is no magic bullet for a problem no matter how badly it is wanted. People get frustrated and mad, but that is the way it is. I've been wrestling with the 2 C41 options for over a year; do I settle for Blix with it's shortcomings for cost and convenience, or bleach and fix with it's baggage. In the end only I can decide what is best for me and live with the outcome.
 

trendland

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I don't think I can keep up with this "conflict" over processing for these color products.

PE

Be sure PE that you got it here! The "conflict". Blix vs Bleach and Fix is "unbreakable" so we ALL
fall into the trap layed by Allan:surprised:!
And be sure this discussion (the conflict) may advance a couple of further years !
with regards

PS : The devil allways introduce himself and ASK for invitation : LOOK ON THIS TREAD'S TITLE!:cry:
 
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alanrockwood

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... we ALL all into the trap layed by Allan!...

No trap, just an honest question from someone with a desire to know.

Unfortunately, no one pointed us to any real data that we can see and evaluate, so speaking from a scientific point of view the question has not been resolved. (Note: undisclosed research and trade secrets do not count as data that we can see and evaluate.) Only the post by Rudeofus which brought up sulfide formation came close, and it did not actually resolve the question, though it did present a reasonable hypothesis.

- Alan -

P.S. Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that only comments that contain (or at least point to) real data should be posted, but as far as resolving the question is concerned posts that contain real data would carry far more weight than posts that do not contain real data.
 
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RPC

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I doubt if we'll ever see any such test data. Tetenal does not seem to have any available, which is curious since their blix is suppose to be so good.

PE has seen plenty of data and given enough info to give a convincing case for a separate bleach and fix and for now that is what I will trust, as I have done in the past.
 

mshchem

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Gentlemen, both Fuji and Kodak market a bleach then fix process with intervening washes and a final rinse for C41 and a similar process for E6. This process sequence, using current films, gives the best and most consistent results in seasoned and single use processes that meet or exceed their demands for overall quality.

After about 4 years of R&D into this problem along with dozens of others at EK, with all of their resources behind us, I learned a lot about this problem. Most all of it disagrees with some of the foregoing posts.

I don't think I can keep up with this "conflict" over processing for these color products. I think that I will leave it to the "experts". Good luck to you all and I hope the "experts" are right.

PE
No sense in trying to educate some people . There's "Best Practices" and there's everything else. :smile:
 

Sirius Glass

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I just love it when people argue with PE about film and film processing which was PE's career and their expertise is what???
 

mshchem

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I doubt if we'll ever see any such test data. Tetenal does not seem to have any available, which is curious since their blix is suppose to be so good.

PE has seen plenty of data and given enough info to give a convincing case for a separate bleach and fix and for now that is what I will trust, as I have done in the past.
One point, don't let fear of blix keep you from enjoying home processing. I just got my new PhotoKlassik magazine ,there's some beautiful Ektachrome photos processed on a new Jobo with Tetenal's E6 kit. My experience is don't overuse the Tetenal chemistry. I'm sticking with the Fuji Pro 6 . I've made beautiful Fujichrome transparencies with the old 5L Tetenal kit. I never used it beyond 4 or 5 rolls per liter.
 

trendland

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To be faire - Alan asked a kind of "unanswered questions" with this thread - the party with blix vs
bleach and fix has not ended be sure it all go on!
And (just from my point) IF yes that might be the question here
IF KODAK WOULD BE ABLE TO SPEND THAT ENOURMIOUS SUMS FOR R&D TILL TODAY THEY WERE ABLE TO SPEND WITHING THE PAST - THERE WOULD POSSIBLE BE A BLIX FROM KODAK SPECIFICATION TODAY!
BUT KODAK RESTRICTED THE MONEY FOR R&D CONCERNING COLOR FILM TO ZERO!
IF I REMEMBER CORRECT IN 2002!

But I have serious doubts that Tetenal have done THIS job Allan!:sad:

with regards
 

Chrismat

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I don't know if this is in spirit of the postings, but I have been looking online for a source in the U.S. for separate bleach and fix for C41 processing. I've been wanting to try processing C41 with separate bleach for a while now.

Chris
 
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alanrockwood

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I don't know if this is in spirit of the postings, but I have been looking online for a source in the U.S. for separate bleach and fix for C41 processing. I've been wanting to try processing C41 with separate bleach for a while now.

Chris
Chris, freestylephoto.biz sells complete kits of C-41 chemicals that use separate bleach and fix. It's the "Fuji C-41 X-Press Kit - 5 L Processing kit." The also sell separate C-41 fixer ("Kodak Flexicolor Fixer and Replenisher Makes 50 L"). They don't list bleach separately.

They also sell a Fuji Hunt kit for E-6 that uses separate bleach and fix.
 
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alanrockwood

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As I mentioned, I have a spectrophotometer, and I could do the spectral measurements if someone wants to supply the appropriately exposed and developed film. If anyone is interested then let me know.

To be meaningful the test would have to satisfy certain requirements. For example, shooting random scenes would not work.

Here are a few minimum requirements. At least Two rolls would need to be supplied, each roll would need to be exposed under identical conditions. Frames would need to be exposed in solid colors (absolutely no details present in the images). Several different colors would need presented, each in a different image. The colors should have good spectral coverage, i.e. a frames in pure red, a pure green, a pure blue, and maybe some other mixed colors. (I am over-simplifying a little bit here.) Roll 1 would need to be processed in conventional C-41 by a highly reliable lab that uses only the best quality consumables and practices. Roll 2 would need to be processed using a C-41 kit that uses blix using only freshly prepared chemicals whithout re-using solutions.

As I mentioned, this is a minimum requirement. A better program would be that the rolls be grouped into three groups. Every roll would need to be exposed identically, as indicated above. In each of the three groups there would need to be at least three rolls, and in each group each roll would need to be treated absolutely identically. (The purpose of this is a replication study.) Group 1 would be rolls that have undergone conventional C-41 processing. Group 2 would be rolls that have undergone processing with a C-41 kit that uses blix, as described above. Group 3 would be similar to group 2 except that the film would undergo two separate blix steps. The first step would be using once-used blix (but otherwise fresh). The second step blix step would be using absolutely fresh unused blix. Ideally, between the two blix steps there would be a water wash. This is to simulate what would happen if one were to run a process in an automated machine that normally uses separate bleach an fix, but with blix substituted for both the bleach step and the fix step.

This scheme would be used to check for similarity of color produced by the different processes. It would not evaluate which color is "best", and it would not evaluate other factors, such as grain or long term image stability or other factors.

It's probably feasible to evaluate grain by a slight extension of this scheme, but it might be more expensive because it might require drum scans, although a high quality prosumer scanner such as a Nikon or Minolta (or even a Canon) might work. However, it would require someone to become involved who has enough image processing experience to be able to extract some statistical information, i.e. the pixel-to-pixel standard deviation of the images.

If anyone is interested then we can discuss it further, including a more detailed/stringent specification for the study.
 

Chrismat

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Chris, freestylephoto.biz sells complete kits of C-41 chemicals that use separate bleach and fix. It's the "Fuji C-41 X-Press Kit - 5 L Processing kit." The also sell separate C-41 fixer ("Kodak Flexicolor Fixer and Replenisher Makes 50 L"). They don't list bleach separately.

They also sell a Fuji Hunt kit for E-6 that uses separate bleach and fix.
Thanks! I saw that kit on Freestyle but obviously didn't read it carefully enough.
 
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