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alanrockwood

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First let me state that if you are tired of reading about or posting about blix then there is no reason to read further into this thread. (In other words, don't waste your time and ours by reading the thread and then comment that you are tired of reading threads about blix.)

I have been studying the blix issue/controversy, and I think I have come to some tentative conclusions. First, blix is bad. Second, blix is OK. Both are true.

How can this be? Here's my theory based on what I have read. I'm framing this as a series of statements, interspersed with a question or two. I'm trying to summarize what I think I have learned. Don't take these statements as statements of iron clad truth, but more along the lines as propositions that may or may not be true.

Blix is unstable and does not keep well after being mixed and degrades fairly rapidly with use.

A well-formulated blix can work fine if it is a good formulation. However, it should not be re-used very many times and should not held over for very long. In fact, it should preferably be freshly mixed and used immediately in single-shot mode. (Granted, this could be expensive.)

Some blix-based products are better than others.

Given these "facts", commercially available blix products are not suitable for high volume laboratories because those laboratories are not set up to use freshly made blix, partly because it does not fit into their established SOPs (which are based on solution re-use and/or replenishment) and partly because of the cost of blix relative to separate bleach and fix methods.

Running the blix processing time a little longer than specified generally won't hurt and might help in clearing the silver and silver halide from the film, with clearing the silver halide being the more serious issue. (I am basing this on a comment made by photo engineer in a ten year old thread.)

This last point raises the following question: If a small automated processing machine (such as a Phototherm or certain Jobo models) is set up to use separate bleach and fix, could one just load blix in place of both the bleach and fix solutions? This would end up blixing the film twice. I presume one could save a little on the consumable cost if the second blix stage is fresh and the first blix is a once-used solution saved from the previous processing batch, assuming the previous batch was run on the same day and only used once previously. In this context one could think of the first blix step as a rough-blix, and the second blix step as a polishing-blix.

If not used properly or if an inferior blix is used then using blix can potentially result in poor quality of the processed film because of incomplete removal of silver and/or silver halide. However, this does not affect the stability of the processed film.

I think I had some more thoughts, but they escape me for the moment, so I'll close this post for now.
 

MattKing

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A couple of questions:
1) Did you mean to post this in the Black and White sub-forum? If so, why?
2) Are you posting about developing film, or are you posting about developing paper, or both?
 

trendland

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First let me state that if you are tired of reading about or posting about blix then there is no reason to read further into this thread. (In other words, don't waste your time and ours by reading the thread and then comment that you are tired of reading threads about blix.)

I have been studying the blix issue/controversy, and I think I have come to some tentative conclusions. First, blix is bad. Second, blix is OK. Both are true.

How can this be? Here's my theory based on what I have read. I'm framing this as a series of statements, interspersed with a question or two. I'm trying to summarize what I think I have learned. Don't take these statements as statements of iron clad truth, but more along the lines as propositions that may or may not be true.

Blix is unstable and does not keep well after being mixed and degrades fairly rapidly with use.

A well-formulated blix can work fine if it is a good formulation. However, it should not be re-used very many times and should not held over for very long. In fact, it should preferably be freshly mixed and used immediately in single-shot mode. (Granted, this could be expensive.)

Some blix-based products are better than others.

Given these "facts", commercially available blix products are not suitable for high volume laboratories because those laboratories are not set up to use freshly made blix, partly because it does not fit into their established SOPs (which are based on solution re-use and/or replenishment) and partly because of the cost of blix relative to separate bleach and fix methods.

Running the blix processing time a little longer than specified generally won't hurt and might help in clearing the silver and silver halide from the film, with clearing the silver halide being the more serious issue. (I am basing this on a comment made by photo engineer in a ten year old thread.)

This last point raises the following question: If a small automated processing machine (such as a Phototherm or certain Jobo models) is set up to use separate bleach and fix, could one just load blix in place of both the bleach and fix solutions? This would end up blixing the film twice. I presume one could save a little on the consumable cost if the second blix stage is fresh and the first blix is a once-used solution saved from the previous processing batch, assuming the previous batch was run on the same day and only used once previously. In this context one could think of the first blix step as a rough-blix, and the second blix step as a polishing-blix.

If not used properly or if an inferior blix is used then using blix can potentially result in poor quality of the processed film because of incomplete removal of silver and/or silver halide. However, this does not affect the stability of the processed film.

I think I had some more thoughts, but they escape me for the moment, so I'll close this post for now.
You are right in concern of statements critizising a thread in general without coming to the issue!
What sense does it make???
Well Blix - I don't like it - the reasons you have described!
But Blix is in most cases the issue with developing kits! You are not forced oft course to buy this stuff! So as no one should feel forced to read your Blix thread Allan...:whistling:!

But since a long time ago I had a feeling that Blix can't reach the characteristics of seperated fix and bleach steps! To the same time I also had thoughts in direction that the impact in regard of quality is possible not soo high! In other words : " THE LOST OF ORIGINAL CHARACTERISTICS IN COMPERISON TO SEPERATE BATHS IS POSSIBLE NOT V E R Y HIGH" But there is a lost!
Now Allan you mentioned it - one may found out this earlyer - because many people who are using
Blix noticed no disadvantage!
But my approach (to usw seperate baths) is the economical side! Perhaps one can state : an environmental issue is comming in addition!
And there is no question about : Seperate baths generally are working more precise (inside original specifications), they last longer, you don't have to waste it such early !
So Allan now an expert is comming with special workflow wich minimize the disadvantage of Blix!
That is fine : But notice - most people who are using Blix are not the best experts in film developing (or they are too lazy - better say : They want quick results/don't want to spent much time) and THEREFORE they are using Blix out of a kit package:pouty:?
Some of them don't notice the difference of Blix and "Bleach and Fix" :whistling:

My question : Your approach is in summary more from a theoretical benifit isn't it?
Real experts will hold on seperate baths (and with seperatate bleach and fix there are a lot of approaches [from formulation].)
Others don't feel such experience to handle your approach because they feel just able to open
a kit pack and are nervious from dilution like manufacturers recomandation!
You perhaps remember many posts from asking how to use this and that kit for c41:sleeping:?

Well the same group of people wonder about "Why" there color developer is exausted ?
But Blix is still OK? Or you perhaps remember questions about : The kit with bleach and fix
wich people had in use was OK - now the new kit using Blix don't work (Blix came to its death):surprised:!

Alan why is this so ?:laugh::happy::D????

Regarding commercial labs - the economical situation caused the sudden death of many labs:pinch:!
Do you perhaps remember the pricing of bleach (in big canisters) at the time 2005 - 2007?
Then you also perhaps remember the increasement of bleach in 2008!
Pricing is E X P LO A D E D ..
Commercial labs (situation in Europe) changed from Kodak to Fuji chems:pouty:!

The economical regard of using bleach and fix seperately is the point of interest in darkrooms!
Or this should be the central point - better said!

So Allan you have to prove if your aproach with one shot Blix from precise formulation
(compliment BTW ) cause advantage in regard of quality - that seams to be a Mission Impossible -right ??

An advantage in concern of economical development c41 isn't there as a second issue I also guess?

It do not help people with kits:angel:! If you would contact manufacturers why they do not
reformulate their kit bleach the answer you will get is for sure (I swear:wink:) :

WE DID IT ALAN - We reformulated out kit years ago and therefore we changed to Blix!:laugh::D:cool:!

So it is just theoretically and perhaps from interist to a handfull of spezialisted c41 developing
people:tongue:!

I will not use Blix - but it is from interisting concern to think about your aproach - therefore :

MUCH THANKS ALAN:wink:
 

Rudeofus

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This last point raises the following question: If a small automated processing machine (such as a Phototherm or certain Jobo models) is set up to use separate bleach and fix, could one just load blix in place of both the bleach and fix solutions? This would end up blixing the film twice. I presume one could save a little on the consumable cost if the second blix stage is fresh and the first blix is a once-used solution saved from the previous processing batch, assuming the previous batch was run on the same day and only used once previously. In this context one could think of the first blix step as a rough-blix, and the second blix step as a polishing-blix.

If not used properly or if an inferior blix is used then using blix can potentially result in poor quality of the processed film because of incomplete removal of silver and/or silver halide. However, this does not affect the stability of the processed film.
BLIXing twice for n minutes is equivalent to BLIXing once for 2*n minutes. A BLIX1 and BLIX2 regime would have comparable advantages to two bath fixing. Incomplete BLIXing actually does have an effect on stability, since retained silver could non-uniformly react to noticeable but effectively irremovable Silver Sulfide.
 

pentaxuser

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All I can say is that Alan has framed his thoughts well and so far has produced the kind of discussion that I came to APUG and then Photrio for

Thanks. It is going well

pentaxuser
 
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alanrockwood

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A couple of questions:
1) Did you mean to post this in the Black and White sub-forum? If so, why?
2) Are you posting about developing film, or are you posting about developing paper, or both?

Matt,

1) You're right. I should have posted it in the color film, paper, and chemistry forum.
2) Mainly film because according to some comments made by experts in the past film is harder to blix than paper, but I t think it is relevant to both film and paper.

Thanks.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Thread moved to the color forum
 

Sirius Glass

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The OP laid out a good summary. I avoid the problem by mixing a kit only when I have all the film exposed and ready for processing. Using the Unicolor C-41 kit I process batch after batch as soon as the reels are dry and completing all the developing in less than 36 hours.
 

mshchem

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How about ........Wait for it.....A Blix then Fix thread :smile:

Everything works when used properly. I have used Tetenal with good results. Now I have a good source for Kodak chemistry. So blix is used for paper. C41 RA Bleach and Fixer is used for color negatives. I've gotten great results with Tetenal's E6, but am currently using Fuji Pro 6.

I don't like powdered C41 but that's my personal taste.

I love these discussions :happy:
 

Photo Engineer

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Alan, you have missed several salient points regarding blixes.

1. Blixes are OK for paper because color paper has a low level of Silver ChloroBromide and no DIR couplers. Therefore a rather weak blix works just fine and has good stability. At least as good as any solution of Ammonium Hypo has.

2. Blixes are not OK for film because color films have 3x or more the level of silver than a comparable paper, and that silver is composed of Silver BromoIodide. Also, DIR couplers are present to improve imaging, but they slow all bleaching and fixing. Therefore a suitable bleach is quite short lived compared to a paper blix.

There are probably more I could add, but this is enough.

PE
 
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alanrockwood

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Oops. I just realized that I made a rather similar post about 12 years ago, and a lot of the replies are rather similar. Anyway, I am still interested in continuing the discussion.
 

Rudeofus

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Blixes are not OK for film because color films have 3x or more the level of silver than a comparable paper, and that silver is composed of Silver BromoIodide. Also, DIR couplers are present to improve imaging, but they slow all bleaching and fixing. Therefore a suitable bleach is quite short lived compared to a paper blix.
This makes BLIX slower than bleach&fix, and it severely limits BLIX reuse, but doesn't sound like a killer argument as in "BLIX won't work at all". All these BLIX kits are designed and marketed as amateur kits for low volume users, no pro lab operator would accept getting just 10-15 rolls through a liter of process liquid.

If you use a fresh batch of decent E6 BLIX single shot, can we expect significant levels of retained Silver, retained Silver Sulfide, or some other silver salt left in the emulsion ?
 

Photo Engineer

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Rudi, Silver can be left behind in film when a blix is used. I know, I have run the Silver analyses and also checked grain and color. Colors are muted due to addition of a neutral density (Silver metal) and grain is up.

PE
 

RPC

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PE, how reliable would the common control strip used by labs be in assessing the quality of a film blix? Some current blixes are being touted as excellent but no test data is provided. If it came out in-spec according to the control strip, would you consider the blix acceptable, or are better tests needed?
 

trendland

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PE, how reliable would the common control strip used by labs be in assessing the quality of a film blix? Some current blixes are being touted as excellent but no test data is provided. If it came out in-spec according to the control strip, would you consider the blix acceptable, or are better tests needed?


RPC : Such test stripe wich would indicate " best calibration " would give noo answer about
long term stability! Kodak test stripes (Fuji seams to be the same) are made to control all kind of possible trouble with baths (c41/e6).
There are no test stripes for Blix:wink:!

with regards

PS : If blix would work such soo properly AND would guarantee long time stability of colors -
I would not use it just if my c41 films began to fade after 22Years! (to 28,5years in comparison with bleach and fix)
Parts of modern labs find new workflow : developing, scanning, printing, wasting negatives
(the originals:surprised:)! There ALL kind of Blix would work fine if the stability to films is only for 2 hours!
So about what are we talking here? Blix is OK for many kind of people (just enough quality)!
I guess min. for 10 - 15 years but don't prove you negatives after 30years:sick:!
So there is a real lack of datas in concern of long time storage:pinch:!
 

Rudeofus

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Rudi, Silver can be left behind in film when a blix is used.
Does this happen even in the first run through a well made BLIX, or just after typical lab reuse patterns build up more and more Iodide and PMT? I know that Kodak had professional labs in mind, when they designed and evaluated most of their processes and process products.
 

trendland

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Rudi, Silver can be left behind in film when a blix is used. I know, I have run the Silver analyses and also checked grain and color. Colors are muted due to addition of a neutral density (Silver metal) and grain is up.

PE
If just "grain is up" some would prefer it from " more grainy look ". PE :wink::D

with regards
 

trendland

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Does this happen even in the first run through a well made BLIX, or just after typical lab reuse patterns build up more and more Iodide and PMT? I know that Kodak had professional labs in mind, when they designed and evaluated most of their processes and process products.
I guess that is right rudeofus! But notice the concern with DIR couplers PE mentioned in #10!
OK lets wait for an answer - PE seams to be bussy jet!

with regards

PS : .......anxious to hear!
 

RPC

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RPC : Such test stripe wich would indicate " best calibration " would give noo answer about
long term stability! Kodak test stripes (Fuji seams to be the same) are made to control all kind of possible trouble with baths (c41/e6).
There are no test stripes for Blix:wink:!

I know there are no control strips made for a film blix, but a standard control strip might still be used to show an indication of retained silver of a blix the strip passed through. If it did not pass that test, then it would be considered unacceptable period. If it passed that test, then more tests could be done.
 

trendland

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I know there are no control strips made for a film blix, but a standard control strip might still be used to show an indication of retained silver of a blix the strip passed through. If it did not pass that test, then it would be considered unacceptable period. If it passed that test, then more tests could be done.

Well the more test that could be done did Kodak in special cllimatic stress test to find out what happen with c41/e6 after 20 years/40years/60years a.s.o.
All was made in concern of original c41/e6 specification!
But blix is outside c41 - thats the problem here!

with regards:wink:
 

trendland

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You can drink CocaCola, you can drink Putins Wodka, you can eat 5 aspirins, you can drink 15 beers but what will happen if you do that all the time and combine it with 5 pork knuckles and "Sauerkraut" at Putins dacha your doktor is able to tell you years later (after inspection)!

with regards
 

RPC

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Many scan their negatives and may not care what happens to them down the road, so silver retention would be there primary concern. Personally I primarily use a separate bleach and fix, but it could be useful to know the nature of these so called "excellent blixes", since they may be acceptable in some applications.
 

trendland

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Many scan their negatives and may not care what happens to them down the road, so silver retention would be there primary concern. Personally I primarily use a separate bleach and fix, but it could be useful to know the nature of these so called "excellent blixes", since they may be acceptable in some applications.
I guess RPC as I mentioned above that Blix can be just fine to you! You scan your films before something can happen with your film! Later you also can modulate your colors via software - when your film begann with fading!
If we speak about disadvantage of bleach we are exclusivly regarding the " time" beginning month after developing (often years later).
Perhaps you remember insuficciant fix of bw papers?
I did remember that all was fine! It began a month later! The last enlagemant was good for a full year ! At last I had to waste ALL prints exept one print wich was OK! It is still OK but I am waiting (20years) seams to be nothing worste will happen!
With c41 it is different but if you have the most insulficiant blix you will notice it!
Exeption you made your scans after your films are dried and don't care about!
Then you should also not care about Blix:wink:!

with regards
 

Rudeofus

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I know there are no control strips made for a film blix, but a standard control strip might still be used to show an indication of retained silver of a blix the strip passed through.
Control strips are there to verify, that your film uniformly conforms to specs, and being off by 0.05 density points is said to be acceptable in this regard. 0.05 localized non-uniformity in density, on the other side, is completely unacceptable, and you will not even notice this in test strips, especially if the non-uniformity takes decades to manifest itself. We'd basically have to use an X ray machine to accurately measure retained silver, and I doubt that anyone here has access to one. I don't.
 

trendland

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Control strips are there to verify, that your film uniformly conforms to specs, and being off by 0.05 density points is said to be acceptable in this regard. 0.05 localized non-uniformity in density, on the other side, is completely unacceptable, and you will not even notice this in test strips, especially if the non-uniformity takes decades to manifest itself. We'd basically have to use an X ray machine to accurately measure retained silver, and I doubt that anyone here has access to one. I don't.
At last we are with this question again at the doctor.......:laugh:!

with regards

PS : Don't x-ray films during a medical consultation - your doctor will not allow it!
 
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