Not warming up to the SP45

Chuck_P · Feb 7, 2023

I seem to be having a time warming up to the SP45 developing tank. I find it just an awkward item to work with........is anyone using the Jobo Multitank 2 with the 2509n reel to develop their 4x5 film?.....and how do you like it?

koraks · Feb 7, 2023

Chuck_P said:
.is anyone using the Jobo Multitank 2 with the 2509n reel to develop their 4x5 film?

Yep. Occasionally.

Chuck_P said:
and how do you like it?

Not perfect, if I'm honest. I often witness unevenness along the edges. It takes a bit of experimentation with/without presoak and with rotation speeds to get perfectly even results with both B&W and color. To be honest, I'm back to doing B&W as much as possible by hand in trays because contact printing is important to me and I won't accept eddy marks along the sides of negatives. YMMV. This is with the 2509N reels and the black 'flaps' installed properly, BTW. The problems were even worse with the old 2509 non-N reels without the flaps.

I think in terms of drums, the best you can still do is Jobo Expert drums, but those are kind of expensive as you probably know.

Neal · Feb 7, 2023

I use the Jobo system and have no problems. I don't know what the issues would be without a drive and water bath. If it helps, I use Xtol 1+1 and a home built CPE work-alike. (I foolishly built my own thinking Jobos would no longer be available.)

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 7, 2023

There's a reason why I use BTZS tubes... The poor man/woman's Jobo. Video coming...eventually.

Chuck_P · Feb 7, 2023

koraks said:
Not perfect, if I'm honest

Yes, I appreciate that.

Andrew O'Neill said:
There's a reason why I use BTZS tubes... The poor man/woman's Jobo. Video coming...eventually.

I will await that video. I will not engage in my ZS testing for personal EI and development times until I settle on a tank. I may even give tray processing a try, but it seems wrought with potential problems, even though I know people do it successfully.......and I never really knew what to think of constant agitation of a negative.

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 7, 2023

Chuck_P said:
Yes, I appreciate that.

I will await that video. I will not engage in my ZS testing for personal EI and development times until I settle on a tank. I may even give tray processing a try, but it seems wrought with potential problems, even though I know people do it successfully.......and I never really knew what to think of constant agitation of a negative.

I took a good look at SP45... never tried one, though. What turned me off was the required amount of developer for just one sheet of film. BTZS requires way less...and when I want edge effects, I can still use the tubes. I'll probably show how I do it in my video... I'll look at 4x5 as well as 8x10. Fred Newman's videos are out dated, and the way he does some things with the tubes I would not recommend . I'll show what I mean in the video.. I've been using tubes for 25 years now and never had any issues.

Alan9940 · Feb 7, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
I've been using tubes for 25 years now and never had any issues.

My 8x10 tubes are so old they're the original heavy gray ones! Haven't used them nearly as much as I used to, since getting a Jobo and Expert Drums sometime around the mid-90's, but I do use them occasionally and never had any issues in 40 years.

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 7, 2023

Alan9940 said:
My 8x10 tubes are so old they're the original heavy gray ones! Haven't used them nearly as much as I used to, since getting a Jobo and Expert Drums sometime around the mid-90's, but I do use them occasionally and never had any issues in 40 years.

I have both the heavy gray, and the light black ones. I prefer the heavy gray ones.

Patrick Robert James · Feb 7, 2023

If you plan on doing a lot of 4x5 then I'd just bite the bullet and get a JOBO 3010. My 2¢.

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 7, 2023

Patrick Robert James said:
If you plan on doing a lot of 4x5 then I'd just bite the bullet and get a JOBO 3010. My 2¢.

Maybe if I ran film development as a business... But, you can do up to 6 sheets at once with the Jobo... same with BTZS... but you can't walk away

koraks · Feb 7, 2023

As to the BTZS tubes - I did a spin on them last summer to see how I liked it. It went for a simple DIY solution: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/pvc-development-tubes-for-sheet-film/
Works fine, but I haven't yet spent any time on making a proper light trap for these, nor a roller base. With those two 'features' added to it, I think it's a great solution for B&W.

Patrick Robert James · Feb 7, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Maybe if I ran film development as a business... But, you can do up to 6 sheets at once with the Jobo... same with BTZS... but you can't walk away

I read your comment and was like, what is the big deal? So I looked up what a JOBO costs now and almost spit out my coffee! Damn.... I doubt I would buy one today. Maybe I should put it in the safe with my eggs. Lol.

I don't know what I'd use if I didn't have the JOBO. Been so long since I've tried anything else.

Chuck_P · Feb 7, 2023

I looked at The View Camera Store u tube of the btzs tube processing.......I can say right away that standing there spinning tubes constantly looks like unit would grow old, and quick.

Checked out the Jobo 3010 system, nice but about $700.

I've spent close to 4 grand just getting myself back into a LF camera/lens......and getting my darkfoom functional again. So I'm not likely to fork out for anymore high dollar items for a while.

Donald Qualls · Feb 7, 2023

koraks said:
As to the BTZS tubes - I did a spin on them last summer to see how I liked it. It went for a simple DIY solution: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/pvc-development-tubes-for-sheet-film/
Works fine, but I haven't yet spent any time on making a proper light trap for these, nor a roller base. With those two 'features' added to it, I think it's a great solution for B&W.

I have made and used tubes with a pour-through light trap, but I think the BTZS method is actually better. The tubes I have require relatively large volume for a single sheet (close to half a liter) and, because I'm pouring through a light trap similar to the one on a stainless steel roll film tank, they take longer to fill than (for instance) a Paterson Super System 4 with the same capacity. Further, with the film wrapped around the inside of the tube you're unavoidably pouring the developer along the surface of the film, so if your development time is less than about ten minutes you'll have enough extra development along the flow path to show in the negative density/contrast.

I haven't tried making my own BTZS type tubes, however, because neither PVC nor ABS pipe caps in the sizes that fit 9x12 or 4x5 have flat ends -- that is, the tubes won't stand on a capped end, so I can't prefill a short section with cap and coupler with a small amount of developer, load the film sheet(s) into the longer capped pieces, join the pieces in the dark, and then flip and shake to start development evenly before rolling the tubes in a tray or similar for constant agitation.

The volumetric inefficiency of pour-in tubes is no problem with replenished developer, of course, but now I have a Yankee Agitank that fills much faster, so I'm unlikely to return to tubes.

koraks · Feb 7, 2023

Donald, you bring up relevant concerns and they match with my experiences, although they can be dealt with in some ways. For instance, the issue of volumetric inefficiency resolves itself if a continuous agitation scheme is adopted.

However, I made my tubes mostly to experiment with semi-stand, so I preferred keeping them small. I worked around the volume issue by simply filling the single-part tubes first with the film and then with the measured amount of developer. It works perfectly fine unless it's a super-active developer that requires a very brief development time of less than 4 minutes or so. I got good evenness across the sheets. But of course, it's a bit fiddly doing this in the dark, and a few drops are spilled. It didn't bother me too much.

A cap with light trap that has good fluid dynamics would be nice. That's why I haven't gotten round to it yet. I've thought about it a couple of times and sketched some ideas, but haven't hit upon a concept that would work really well and also lend itself to 3d printing, which would be my preferred manufacturing approach for this.

Donald Qualls · Feb 7, 2023

My light trap was pretty simple -- I drilled a central hole in a cap that fit the ABS drain pipe I was using. The hole was sized to fit opaque gray PVC. The end that would be inside was notched out and the filler neck glued into the cap with the notched end protruding a bit more than the depth of the notches on the inside, and a piece of black ABS sheet was glued to the end ("transition cement" gave good adhesion and seal gluing PVC to ABS). The corners of the ABS sheet piece were trimmed to ensure clearance when the cap was pushed onto the tube, and a smaller cap that fit the PVC piece served as an inversion cap.

It worked pretty well overall when I was used to using stainless tanks, but Paterson ruined me for slow fill and drain. C-41 with its 3:15 dev time sealed the coffin lid.

Pouring liquids in the dark with tubes that won't stand on end seems very much, to me, like a recipe for major issues. If you have an accident, you'll be stuck deciding between probable uneven development or turning on the lights and fogging all the film that hasn't yet been closed up -- and it's pretty much a one-tube operation, as far as I can see, due to the time needed to fill and cap each tube. Nothing gained over trays for a single sheet.

Chuck_P · Feb 7, 2023

Seems you would get scratches, or risk scratches, on the back side of of the film when sliding it into the tube......but apparently not you guys are doing it all the time.

faberryman · Feb 7, 2023

The SP-445 works fine for me.

koraks · Feb 7, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Pouring liquids in the dark with tubes that won't stand on end seems very much, to me, like a recipe for major issues

My tubes stand upright alright, which makes all the difference. The whole operation is actually easier than it sounds, but evidently, a daylight solution is more convenient.

Chuck_P said:
Seems you would get scratches, or risk scratches, on the back side of of the film

I tested for this specifically. As long as any sharp protrusions on the inside ot the tube are sanded down with fine sandpaper so that the inside is perfectly smooth, it works quite well.

Alan9940 · Feb 7, 2023

I vaguely remember (and I mean VAGUELY because this is something like 40 years ago) a photographer that simply cut PVC pipe to an appropriate length for 4x5 film, slid the film in like the BTZS tubes, and simply rolled them back-n-forth in each tray. This all had to be done in the dark, of course. No idea if this idea would work out well because I've never tried it myself. Certainly, would be cheap enough to try and see if it leads anywhere.

Years ago, I made some tubes for Extreme Minimal Agitation (ala Steve Sherman) with Pyrocat-HD. They have a permanent cap on one end and a pipe stopper on the other. Very quick and easy to fill, once you get used to it because this part is in the dark. After the stopper is tightened down, the rest of the process can be done in room light. No reason why this same design couldn't be used for normal development, but it does require quite a bit of chemistry depending on tube size.

Donald Qualls · Feb 7, 2023

koraks said:
As long as any sharp protrusions on the inside ot the tube are sanded down with fine sandpaper so that the inside is perfectly smooth, it works quite well.

I've never had a scratch from my tubes (though I only used them for about a dozen sheets total) -- I just ran a sharp knife around the inner edge to deburr after cutting. Aside from the cut line, the inside of ABS drain pipe is very smooth (I used ABS drain pipe mainly because it's black).

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 7, 2023

No scratches whatsoever on the backside of the film. The lip on the 4x5 tube is smooth. It's not so smooth on the newer, black, 8x10 tubes so, so care must be taken (I have a disliking for them!). The old, grey, tubes are smooth.

Sirius Glass · Feb 7, 2023

I prefer the Jobo 3010 Expert Drum [up to 10 sheets], which is pricey but well worth the expense over the time one will be using it. I bought one from FreeStyle, a Photrio sponsor, several years ago.

Two23 · Feb 7, 2023

The new Stearman Press tank for 4x5 now does six sheets. I like my SP-445 because it's easy to load. It's compact so it doesn't take up much space on long trips.

Kent in SD

Steven Lee · Feb 8, 2023

Chuck_P said:
Is anyone using the Jobo Multitank 2 with the 2509n reel to develop their 4x5 film?.....and how do you like it?

Yes, that is my setup. I have two tanks: the 2521 which takes one 2509n reel, and the 2551 which takes two. No complaints, I love the results I'm getting. I always use the "paddles", I figured if Jobo engineers had to add them there must be some benefit, although most people say they aren't needed. This combo is easy to load and the results are perfectly even. I will say that loading is MUCH nicer in a bigger Harrison tent. Initially I tried to use the regular dark bag and it was too tight.

Take my experience with a grain of salt though. As a newcomer to 4x5 I'm only on my second 25-sheet box of HP5+ I haven't tried developing C41 or E6 yet.

Not warming up to the SP45

Chuck_P

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Not warming up to the SP45

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