Noob seeks advice: Pentax 645 vs. Mamiya 645 vs Bronica

After my first so-so experience with medium format (Super Ikonta III) I decided to save some money and get something more...modern.

I'm a total noob in medium format, I just shoot 35mm, to be honest medium format always scared me (big size, unreliable, difficult to use, slow at taking pics..) but right now I would like to get a nice camera possibly as easy to use as a 35mm SLR, for what I could get on the net the three cameras in the 645 are the Pentax 645, the Bronica and the Mamiya. I'm seeking advice on these three cameras:

Pentax 645: a lot of people say it's easy to use, it appears the N model is more popular (but also more expensive and I'm not really interested in AF), I heard you can't change the back, is it true? I assume (hope) it has TTL lightmeter.

Maimya 645: I'm considering the Super, Pro and Pro TL models. Aesthetically speaking I prefer the Pentax but it appears this one can also shoot polaroid, I would be interested (if it's still possible to find the film), it also has the fastest lens, the 80mm f1.9. What would be the most sought after model? Also, I've see two main AE prism, one that looks like the Pentax and another one, elongated. Also it appears that more than one motordrive is available for this camera.

Bronica: ETRS and ETRSi supposedly are the best models, my understanding is that it has a leaf shutter in the lens unlike the others, it appears that most of them don't have a winder but a LHS grip. It looks older (and better made?) than the others.

Which one would you recommend? And what their pros and cons?

I'm in the Mamiya camp.

Most likely you will receive responses from people that are essentially "choose what I have" but I'll tell you what I can about the others as well.

I started out with a Mamiya 645 Super, added a Pro, and then sold the Super. The only advantages of the Pro Tl are that it adds an off the film flash metering function with a very few electronic flashes, and is the most recent model, and therefore would be newest.

Lenses: All three offer excellent lenses. In most cases, those lenses are quite reasonably priced. The Mamiya 80mm f/1.9 is interesting, but wide open the DOF is very thin. I look at that lens as being more of a special purpose optic and, amongst the 80mm Mamiya lenses, I prefer the smaller f/2.8 version, or the close focusing macro version (which is what I have settled on).

Backs: I really prefer having interchangeable backs, so the Pentax is out for me. I really like the fact that the Mamiya 645 inserts that work with the Mamiya 645 interchangeable backs work in every single Mamiya 645 model, including the now really old original one. My limited experience with the Bronica version indicates that they work well as well.

Shutters: I have other cameras that use leaf shutters, so I no longer have a leaf shutter lens for my Mamiya 645 camera. The leaf shutter lens I did have worked well, in a complex sort of way. If you use a lot of fill flash, leaf shutters are great (and the Bronica options win out), but the fact that each lens has its own shutter means higher initial expense, greater need for regular maintenance, and a real possibility of having to adjust exposure for each lens, due to shutter variation.

Finders: These vary tremendously, and are a subject unto themselves. The two main metering options for the Mamiya 645 are actually very similar, except the older, "N" version is much chunkier looking.

Winders: I have one of the older versions of the power winder for the Mamiya 645. I never use it. It adds weight and size and speed that is rarely required. Don't buy a camera without a film winding crank. If you find you like the camera, you can decide whether a power winder makes sense.

Accessories: There are a lot of accessories available for all of your choices. I'm only really familiar with the Mamiya offerings, but I would warn you that the choices are complex, there are some compatibility issues and the documentation is in some cases poor. For example, there are two different (but really useful) left hand grips, and the connector that is necessary in order for the shutter release and hot shoe on the grip to function differs between the Super and the Pro/Pro Tl.

Here is a very nice overview for the 6x4.5 systems you are looking for : http://www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/Product_Resources/SourceBookProPhoto/Section01MediumFormat.pdf



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I have a Bronica ETRSi with the AEIII Prism finder (Aperture-priority AE control, switchable to manual exporsure control -Spot metering, switchable to average metering)
and the Speed Grip - it handles like a big 35mm SLR - switching between landscape - or portrait orientation is easy.
There also is a Motor Winder ( 0.8 frames / sec ).
I have two lenses (75mm f/2.8 ; 50mm f/2.8) - I like the 75mm best.

I have Mamiya 645 Pro. Matt's points I mostly agree with except that I much prefer the handling with the winder grip. It does add size and weight but improves the handling a lot, but that of course IMHO and YMMV.

It will take a Polaroid back, I have one, and you can get film (Fuji.) But remember that the image is the same size as the negative - a 6x4.5 cm image in the corner of a quarter plate (3.25x4.25") piece of instant print looks, well, small. But it works fine and is good for proofing.

First, I would not shoot instant film in one of these. If you are paying $9 for a pack of 10 shots of FP100c, or $18 for expired FP3000b, you want the full 3x4 inch area of the print. For $30 or so you can just get an old Polaroid land pack film camera and get full size images, not 6x4.5 cm. True, these medium format cameras have better lenses and controls, but instant film has limited resolution and benefits little from better lenses anyway. The only real advantage is perhaps 2-3 stops faster lenses.

I had a Bronica ETRSi. The speed grip is right handed like a 35mm SLR and has a nice slide-on mechanism for quick attachment, much nicer than the speed grip for the Bronica SQ, which needs to be screwed into the tripod socket and is fiddly. I tried a Mamiya Pro-TL and it was nice, but the power winder made it heavy.

I think you will find image quality with any of these can be superb.

Don't be intimidated. Shooting medium format isn't much different from shooting 35mm.

I've owned a Bronica ETRsi and all three of the Pentax 645 models. If you are on a budget or just love everything manual get the Bronica ETR or ETRsi. The si is newer but supposably has more plastic parts than the earlier model. The ETRsi was my first medium format camera but I owned it for a very short time because a good friend offered me a Bronica EC outfit for a song. I only had the 75mm lens.

I liked the Pentax better. If you get one then I recommending passing on the first model and getting the Pentax 645N even if you don't use the autofocus. The brighter viewfinder, matrix metering and a real shutter speed dial are worth it. Here is a good review from Ken Rockwell. http://www.kenrockwell.com/pentax/645/645n.htm The later Nll adds mirror lock-up which is completely unnecessary with these cameras because the mirror is so well dampened. I never did any side by side testing but the later FA autofocus lenses are said to be a little sharper than the early models. I owned the 75, 150 and the Macro FA lenses and the 35mm manual focus lens. They were all sharp. The problem is that the FA lenses now go for a premium since the 645D digital cameras came out. The Pentax 645 models all share film inserts that you can load ahead of time. The problem is you can't change inserts mid roll like you can with a true film back.

I used to own an RZ67 but I have no experience with the Mamiya 645 cameras. From what I have read the later models compare vary favorably with the Pentax 645N and 645Nll.

Good luck to you. I think you will enjoy medium format!

Mamiya RB67

To hell with 645 if you're gonna go off the deep end in film 6x7 is the way to go. I had a 645 it was fun but I wanted bigger I went to 5x7 for a while and picked up an RB outfit for nothing. RB prices are half what they were two years ago. dooo iiiiittt

I've owned a Mamiya 645 1000S and Pentax 645N; I currently have a Mamiya 645 Pro TL and Pentax 645 (go figure). The Pentax offers you access to both 645 and 67 lenses with automatic aperture activation, but has a fixed prism and, frankly, one of the worst user interfaces ever; the Mamiya has a smaller range of (still excellent, and including an 80mm f/1.9 or two) glass, but much more flexibility in configuration (plus an extra shutter release that makes shooting with a waist-level finder an absolute joy). Unless you pick up a Mamiya 645 1000S or later, you'll also be limited to a 1/500s top shutter speed.

Do yourself a favour and spend a bit more on a Pentax 645N or 645NII, or a Mamiya 645 Pro/Pro TL.

They're all going to be great.

You're more limited by what's available, at what price and in what condition. If you find a fantastic system at a good price, it doesn't really matter which of the three you get, they're all going to produce good negatives, but a good condition Bronica is going to be a much better investment than a poorly looked after Mamiya. And vice-versa.

Chose the one you feel most comfortable with. The best lens, the best extras are worthless if you don't feel comfortable with the camera it has to click. Most of the time handling the cameras in the store will tell you which camera is best suited for you. Haptic is important as is the viewfinder. All cameras you mentioned will give you sharper and more contrasty results than any older Folder.

I haven't used the others, but I have a Pentax 645N. No, you can't change backs midroll. But, even with the other camera that I can do that with, I hardly ever do it. To me, the 645N is a 35mm on steroids. I can handhold it with the 75mm lens. I rarely use AF, but I don't consider having it as a problem. And the camera will use the non-AF 645 lenses, too.

And I change backs mid-roll all the time, especially with a 645 camera that gets 15 shots on a roll. Come to think of it, the only reason I don't do it with my 6x6 Yashicmat is because I can't; I've wished I could many times. But this is very much a YMMV depending on your shooting style kind of thing. In 35mm I often carry three bodies and always two, loaded with different film.

For 645, I've had the Mamiya M645 1000s, 645E, and 645 Pro (each by itself, not at the same time) and just recently traded the Pro for the Bronica ETRSi. So far, I'm liking it a lot. I do miss the faster lenses available for the Mamiya, but I do love the "compactness" of the Bronica.

I've seen the Pentax 645 (first one) in person recently and it's smaller than the Bronica. But like you said, no interchangeable backs. Also, having all lenses with leaf shutters on the Bronica is a nice feature if you use flash outside. The downside? Slower max shutter speeds (1/500s vs 1/1000s)

MattKing said:

I'm in the Mamiya camp.

Most likely you will receive responses from people that are essentially "choose what I have" but I'll tell you what I can about the others as well.

I started out with a Mamiya 645 Super, added a Pro, and then sold the Super. The only advantages of the Pro Tl are that it adds an off the film flash metering function with a very few electronic flashes, and is the most recent model, and therefore would be newest.

Lenses: All three offer excellent lenses. In most cases, those lenses are quite reasonably priced. The Mamiya 80mm f/1.9 is interesting, but wide open the DOF is very thin. I look at that lens as being more of a special purpose optic and, amongst the 80mm Mamiya lenses, I prefer the smaller f/2.8 version, or the close focusing macro version (which is what I have settled on).

Backs: I really prefer having interchangeable backs, so the Pentax is out for me. I really like the fact that the Mamiya 645 inserts that work with the Mamiya 645 interchangeable backs work in every single Mamiya 645 model, including the now really old original one. My limited experience with the Bronica version indicates that they work well as well.

Shutters: I have other cameras that use leaf shutters, so I no longer have a leaf shutter lens for my Mamiya 645 camera. The leaf shutter lens I did have worked well, in a complex sort of way. If you use a lot of fill flash, leaf shutters are great (and the Bronica options win out), but the fact that each lens has its own shutter means higher initial expense, greater need for regular maintenance, and a real possibility of having to adjust exposure for each lens, due to shutter variation.

Finders: These vary tremendously, and are a subject unto themselves. The two main metering options for the Mamiya 645 are actually very similar, except the older, "N" version is much chunkier looking.

Winders: I have one of the older versions of the power winder for the Mamiya 645. I never use it. It adds weight and size and speed that is rarely required. Don't buy a camera without a film winding crank. If you find you like the camera, you can decide whether a power winder makes sense.

Accessories: There are a lot of accessories available for all of your choices. I'm only really familiar with the Mamiya offerings, but I would warn you that the choices are complex, there are some compatibility issues and the documentation is in some cases poor. For example, there are two different (but really useful) left hand grips, and the connector that is necessary in order for the shutter release and hot shoe on the grip to function differs between the Super and the Pro/Pro Tl.

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Sadly true:

Most likely you will receive responses from people that are essentially "choose what I have" but I'll tell you what I can about the others as well.

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So please note that I did not push Hasselblad my drug of choice.

Interchangeable lenses and film backs allow very welcome flexibility.

mweintraub said:

For 645, I've had the Mamiya M645 1000s, 645E, and 645 Pro (each by itself, not at the same time) and just recently traded the Pro for the Bronica ETRSi. So far, I'm liking it a lot. I do miss the faster lenses available for the Mamiya, but I do love the "compactness" of the Bronica.

I've seen the Pentax 645 (first one) in person recently and it's smaller than the Bronica. But like you said, no interchangeable backs. Also, having all lenses with leaf shutters on the Bronica is a nice feature if you use flash outside. The downside? Slower max shutter speeds (1/500s vs 1/1000s)

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Yes that worries me, I mean the 1/500s, I like to shoot wide open and sometimes I even have overexposure with 1/2000s!

Unfortunately I never seen any of these cameras live besides an old Mamiya 1000s that looked like to me like a Hasselblad, so it's hard for me to understand which one would suit me more.

It is interesting that you pointed out the Bronica is smaller than the Mamiya and the Pentax even more, but I'm not surprised because I've quite a lot of Pentaxes 35mm and they are smaller than a Nikon or a Canon.

So at the moment the points in favour of the three pretenders are:

Bronica: small...I also noticed it's the best looking of the lot. Does the leaf shutter really make a difference? I also noticed there is my favourite screen (diagonal split screen) for this camera, I don't know how hard to find it is.
cons....1/500s

Model to look for: ETRSi

Mamiya: of course the 80mm f1.9! 1/1000s, various AE finders (like the Bronica)
cons: IMO a little ugly, especially the Pro and Pro TL, bigger than the others

Model to look for: Pro TL, why so many people don't like the Super out of curiosity?

Pentax: it appears the only thing in favour of the 645 is that it's a Pentax! The cons are no changing back (so no 135mm, polaroid, 220/120), no removable finder?
Everybody loves

Model to look for: n or nII (but it's too dear), it appears the original 645 doesn't have a good reputation like the Mamiya Super

The Pentax 645 models with motor drive are much noisier that the ETRS models with speed winder. May or may not be an issue for you.

The original Pentax 645 isn't a bad camera. It's just that the 645n is such a better camera. You are stuck with the viewfinder. It's not removable to use a waist level finder.

A lot depends upon how you are going to use the camera. I loved the Pentax N and Nll for shooting handheld. I used it at events shooting people. The matrix metering is great. For portraits I had a Mamiya RZ67 which I used on a tripod with studio strobes.

j-dogg said:

Mamiya RB67

To hell with 645 if you're gonna go off the deep end in film 6x7 is the way to go. I had a 645 it was fun but I wanted bigger I went to 5x7 for a while and picked up an RB outfit for nothing. RB prices are half what they were two years ago. dooo iiiiittt

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This. 6x7. Accept no substitutes. The RB is a perfect machine, it has no limits, you can shoot it handheld with confidence, it is rather quick to operate, it allows many formats (i.e. 6x4,5), it has inexpensive, very well corrected lenses covering from fisheye to super telephoto; you can do landscape photography, portraits, products, street (yes), documentary, industrial photography, and in all cases the image quality will knock your socks off and blow your mind. All other medium format SLRs are failed attempts to create a smaller and lighter RB67 for people who don't want to man up and get used to the weight

Besides that, don't obsess over the 80/1.9 lens. At 6x4.5 the DOF is really thin and you wouldn't really want to shoot wider than f2.8. Also, on medium format you get used to very high resolution, so in other words you get much more picky about image quality and would like to use lenses stopped down to the middle of the range. On the other hand, HP5 pushed to 1600 looks really grainy in 35mm but in medium format it looks just fine, so don't be afraid of higher ISOs.

You will see that in medium format usually all lenses are excellent or very good, so don't worry too much about the lenses. Mamiya, Pentax, Zeiss, Fuji, Nikon, Kowa -- all of them made excellent medium format lenses.

If you don't want to go 6x7, consider also the 6x6 TLR cameras; a Mamiya C330 is a far better machine than what it would appear on paper; really versatile. And if you are comfortable using only a normal lens, a Rolleiflex with the 2.8 or 3.5 lenses is one of the finest, best built cameras ever, so well made, it can make a Leica feel ordinary.

cuthbert said:

Yes that worries me, I mean the 1/500s, I like to shoot wide open and sometimes I even have overexposure with 1/2000s!

Unfortunately I never seen any of these cameras live besides an old Mamiya 1000s that looked like to me like a Hasselblad, so it's hard for me to understand which one would suit me more.

It is interesting that you pointed out the Bronica is smaller than the Mamiya and the Pentax even more, but I'm not surprised because I've quite a lot of Pentaxes 35mm and they are smaller than a Nikon or a Canon.

So at the moment the points in favour of the three pretenders are:

Bronica: small...I also noticed it's the best looking of the lot. Does the leaf shutter really make a difference? I also noticed there is my favourite screen (diagonal split screen) for this camera, I don't know how hard to find it is.
cons....1/500s

Model to look for: ETRSi

Mamiya: of course the 80mm f1.9! 1/1000s, various AE finders (like the Bronica)
cons: IMO a little ugly, especially the Pro and Pro TL, bigger than the others

Model to look for: Pro TL, why so many people don't like the Super out of curiosity?

Pentax: it appears the only thing in favour of the 645 is that it's a Pentax! The cons are no changing back (so no 135mm, polaroid, 220/120), no removable finder?
Everybody loves

Model to look for: n or nII (but it's too dear), it appears the original 645 doesn't have a good reputation like the Mamiya Super

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They all shoot fantastic photos. Each brand has their own look and style. I have favorite photos from each brand (never shot the Pentax 645, but have with their 135).


If you shoot wide open a lot, think about getting some ND filters. A lot of the MF lenses are the same filter size, so you can usually get one filter size. If not, you can always get a larger one and step up rings for the smaller ones... or a Cokin or Lee system where you have square filters you slide in.


What you say as a draw back on the Pentax, I find as a perk making the size SMALL. No interchangeable backs and finders allows for a smaller form factor. As mentioned, the 6x4.5cm image on a Fuji FP-100C leaves a lot to be desired. If you want to use 135 film, you can use adapters to adapt it. Of course you'll be shooting on the sprockets.

Remember, with MF, you dont' need such a fast lens, I had the 1.9. I didn't use it much. Even with 2.8, you get shallow DOF.


EDIT: Where are you? I bet people near you might have these systems.

I have had no problems with being limited to 1/500 second with MF. If there is too much light for the film, then neutral density filters or polarizers can be used.

I was in your position and chose the ETRSi.

My reasoning was simple: I don't care about AF or motor winders (I like the grip winder for the Bronica though), I wanted the option of a WLF (which I use more and more as time goes on), and I wanted interchangeable backs (which I use very frequently, having either one roll colour and one B&W, or one Porta 400 and one Ektar/Slide so I can switch between portraits and saturated scenes).

I could have gone with the M645, and I'd probably be just as happy, but to be honest I was a bit overwhelmed by the many versions, and the quirks of each. The ETR system was simpler to figure out and make sure I got the right one. I was able to get a complete set of KEH for what felt like next to nothing.

Every now and then I think "Maybe I should have got a Mamiya so I could re-use the lenses with a phase-one back" and then I see that even used I could never dream of digital-MF back.

cuthbert said:

I just shoot 35mm, to be honest medium format always scared me (big size, unreliable, difficult to use, slow at taking pics..)

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Elaborating at this, knowing your vast experience with 35mm.

Big size: A Mamiya M645 (and many similar cameras) is not big, if you are used to pro cameras like the Nikon F2. A Rolleiflex is compact. A hasselblad is very compact. The lenses for the Mamiya C330/C220 are really small, not so much bigger than the equivalent 35mm lenses. Same for 6x4.5 lenses in general. The lenses for the Mamiya rangefinders are tiny.

Unreliable: The RB67 and C330/C220 cameras are as reliable as a Nikon F. Same for the Rolleiflex, Rolleicord and most TLRs. Most MF cameras were explicitely intended as professional workhorses, so they should not fail. In the case of leaf-shutter cameras, the most unreliable part (the shutter) is in the lens, so even a shutter malfunction is immediately cured by replacing the lens, which can be done in seconds.

Slow at taking pic:
- Before the 35mm format being ubiquitous, Rolleiflexes were the camera of choice for journalism, including sports. Yes, they shot sports with MF cameras.
- The "sports finder" available for some of those cameras (i.e. Rolleiflex, RB) can really give you quick operation, since they allow quick framing at 100% magnification AND allow you to see the surroundings around your frame, with both eyes open.
- Some of those MF cameras can be focused as quick (or quicker) than 35mm SLR cameras due to a viewfinder that is bigger and brighter. Of course, DOF is shallower, so there is a limit.
- You can shoot with a camera with interchangeable film magazines (i.e. Hasselblad, RB67, etc), and swap film backs on the fly when your film roll runs out. Usually, you can't do that with 35mm. If you have an assistant/helper, that means continuous shooting forever, limited only by the amount of rolls you brought.
- With a 6x6 (or 6x7 camera), you have so much film real estate (for later cropping) that you don't need to make sure you are using the full area of the frame. This, in some contexts, can speed up your shooting (since you don't need to recompose every time your subject moves).

cuthbert said:

Mamiya: of course the 80mm f1.9! 1/1000s, various AE finders (like the Bronica)
cons: IMO a little ugly, especially the Pro and Pro TL, bigger than the others

Model to look for: Pro TL, why so many people don't like the Super out of curiosity?

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Functionally, the Super is very close to the Pro. The Super had a single, mechanical shutter speed that functioned even without a battery. In the Pro and Pro Tl, that mechanical speed is gone, but a self timer was added. I use a self timer a lot - instead of a cable release.

The Super was the very first version that offered interchangeable backs. It is the oldest of the three versions that do, and therefore is most likely to suffer from any problems that might arise out of old age. In addition, there were some problems with the durability of the gearing in the Super, in particular with the cameras that were used with power winders. That gearing was apparently made more robust in the models that followed.

It is interesting how you refer to the appearance of the cameras. The difference between the Super and the Pro really does reflect the changes in "style" between when the Super was introduced, and when the later models were introduced.

If you want to spend a few fascinating and confusing hours, here is a link to an index page on Mike Butkus' camera manual site that list all sorts of Mamiya medium format manuals. If you get any benefit from this, please consider sending him the requested donation: http://www.butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_lenses_accessories/mamiya_lenses_accessories.htm

I had the same choices when i back into MF I got the pentax original not n mainly because for me switching backs midroll was not something i need nor switching finders so the mamiya and bonica had no real advantage.Like another poster said the first pentax is not bad just the n and n2 are better for me mainly the knobs instead of the godawful lcd menu. actually prefer using it in AE or AV mode because manual is a pain with the menu. in 35mm i use a km and have no problem with using the 645 handheld.

Several years ago, I was where you are now. I didn’t choose the Pentax 645 because I wanted interchangeable backs, and I heard from more than one source that the electronics were less than reliable. The reality is that in practice, I almost never change backs mid-roll. Others do, but it just doesn’t happen that often for me.

I briefly started with the Mamiya M645 and 1000s. I personally wasn’t a big fan of the ergonomics, but I did get some nice negatives.

In choosing between the Bronica ETRSi and the remaining Mamiya 645 models, it really came down to being able to get more bang for my limited bucks with the former. The Mamiya system was, and still is but not by much, more expensive for a body, back(s), metered prism and a 2-3 lens kit, which is what I wanted.

The Bronica is what I use more than any of the other dozen or so cameras that I own. I have an AE-II prism (the metering of which works well but I almost never use it, favoring some form of handheld meter) and the Speed Grip E. The grip helps me balance the camera, I like it better than a crank, it puts my shutter finger in a familiar position, and it has a hotshoe which I use very often for a wireless trigger. The thumb winder on the grip is two throws per frame advance. I have no idea why the engineers couldn’t gear this thing for a single throw. I’m so used to it now that it doesn’t really matter.

Lenses (I have 50, 75, 150, and 250mm) are great. I thought leaf shutter lenses for fill flash outside might be an advantage when I first got into the Bronica system, but again, it’s not something I use in practice. I do have and use the extension tubes. I have a couple of instant film backs, but as Fuji’s film offerings decline, I don’t use them much.

The system is not perfect. Every once in a while, something will jam and render the camera inoperable. I have to wiggle lenses or their release, or backs, or Speed Grip, take things off and reattach modular parts, and eventually things will be back to normal. I’ve not found the culprit. It’s happened with more than one body.

In the past year, I bought a Mamiya Pro to see if it could be a replacement. It has the Power Drive Grip II which as the name suggests, winds the film and will cock a leaf shutter for those lenses. The winder is loud to my ear, louder than any of my Canon EOS bodies (the only other cameras I have with power winding). The metering prism (645 AE) is good. The lenses (I have 80/2.8, 150/3.5, and 210/4) are smaller and lighter than the Bronica’s. I don’t notice any difference in quality between either set. I like the holder in the back for the darkslide. I like the timer option, something the Bronica lacks.

As several others have said, people have made great photographs with any of the three systems you’re looking at. They each have strengths and weaknesses. The one that fits your needs and fits your hand is the right one for you.