NO Deep Black Multigrade Paper

Dragan Bojovic · May 20, 2018

Hi Darkroom Friends,

I am new to apug, this is my first post, i have a few problems in my darkroom printing process, the biggest one is the multigrade rc paper is not going deep black like i have it at the professional lab i can some time do my prints.

my enlarger is a durst m605 with color head, in the pro lab there is a very good condenser enlarger.

i store my chemicals in a 5l botle 2l chemicals 3l air for 3 weeks now, the image appears after 30-45 seconds.
should i really hold the developer in a bottle without air?

The temperature in my lab is about 15 deg celsius.

is the developer the problem ?

thanks for your help
Dragan

removed account4 · May 20, 2018

hello dragan:
seems you might be underexposing your paper
usually ( for me at least ) when my exposure is right
and everything looks good, the image appears at about 20seconds.
do you agitate your paper in the deveoper ? is it matte or glossy paper ?
glossy might look blacker ( i don't know if it actually is ) and agitation is important.

do this simple test ...
take a scrap of paper out of your box
put your room lights on and develop your paper
for the 1 minute / the time you are supposed to devleop it for.. see if you get good deep blacks ....
if you do, its your exposure .. increase your exposure and you might be OK
ALSO not sure what developer you are using, but make sure it isn't too dilute. dilute and develop
your prints for the exact time it says to ...

good luck ! + welcome to photrio !

john

Anon Ymous · May 20, 2018

How long do you develop your prints? If the image emerges after at least 30'', then 3' is the absolute minimum I'd develop, probably more. Apart from that, chances are that your developer is significantly oxidised and needs to be replaced. Generally speaking, try to keep as much air as possible out of the bottle, try using smaller bottles for a start.

Dragan Bojovic · May 20, 2018

hi all,

i am using the same developer as in the pro lab its a eco developer, destilled water, when i made my contact sheet i exposed a test sheet to see where the dark part in between the shots is not going darker, this was my time for the whole sheet, even a paper exposed to daylight is not going to be darker, i am agitating the whole time (is that correct?) for 90 sec in total as in the pro lab with the same developer, the guy in the pro lab is storing the developer also in a big bottle with plenty air in it. i will mix a fresh developer ilford, in 1 litre bottle, and try again. thanks all for help.

Anon Ymous · May 20, 2018

90'' development time when it takes 30 to 45'' for blacks to emerge is way too little time. As a rule of thumb, develop for 6 to 7 times the time it takes for the image to emerge, developing more will not hurt either. Yes, you should agitate as you do. The low temperature of your darkroom is basically the culprit and you need to adjust your development time. This however, assumes that you have reasonably fresh paper.

~andi · May 20, 2018

Some ideas off the top of my head:

- normally 90s would seem OK for RC, but at 15C.... try developing longer and use a developer known to work well at 15C
- give enough exposure, i'd say don't go below 5seconds
- is this by any chance Foma RC paper? I found the blacks can look very warm on Fomaspeed giving the impression your photo above shows

Lachlan Young · May 20, 2018

Have you done a safelight test?

Doremus Scudder · May 20, 2018

Lachlan Young said:
Have you done a safelight test?

Unsafe "safelight" would fog the print, making the print blacks blacker... not keep it from reaching d-max.

15°C might be your problem if the developer contains hydroquinone. It becomes inactive below about 15°C. Once that happens, even extending development times won't get it to work again; you'll be developing only with the other agent in the developer (either Metol or phenidone), which won't give you much contrast at all.

I suggest the following: Warm up your developer solution to 20°C. Then develop a strip of paper with the white lights on and see if it gets to maximum black. Extend your development time to 3+ minutes with this test. If it doesn't reach black, your developer is not active enough. Mix new and try the same test. Keep at it till you have active developer. Fix, dry and keep this test strip. Then, before each session, check your developer by developing a new strip of paper with the lights on and compare it to your benchmark strip. If it's not black enough, replace your developer. Keep in mind that working-strength developer is only good for a session or maybe two. Stock solutions last longer. If you're trying to save working solution for more than a few hours, you're wasting time and paper.

I doubt it is your paper, but if the problem persists, even with fresh, warm-enough developer, try another batch of paper. Or, if you suspect your developer stock is bad buy new developer and try with it. Stock solutions go bad after a few months.

Once you're sure your developer is working properly, start over with your tests for maximum black on your proof sheets.

Best,

Doremus

Dragan Bojovic · May 20, 2018

@Andi, the paper is multigrade rc glossy from ilford

@doremus, the developer contains ascorbic acid, dimezone, acid edenic, potassium carbonate, diethylene glycol but no hydroquinone dillution 1+9 on the bottle is written suitable for low temperature and the time for 20 deg celsius is between 60 and 90 sec.

i will try different times on 20 deg celsius and 15 deg with a fresh soup.

will write what the problem was, thanks you all

removed account4 · May 20, 2018

i've never heard of a print developer with vit c.
i'd try the ilford developer, at 20ºC
if it is RC paper look at the recommended developing times
usually rc paper is 1 minute .. do the room lights on test and see if it is any better.

good luck !
john

NedL · May 20, 2018

I don't think this is the same developer, but it's interesting and doesn't contain metol or hydroquinone.
https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/msds/Eco_Pro_Paper_Developer_MSDS.pdf

Huub · May 21, 2018

I agree with Doremus and suspect the temperature of your developer is the issue. Try to get your developer between 20 en 25 C, for instance by using a bigger tray filled with warm water, filled with warm water. Then follow his other suggestions for the simple test. Getting your paper black shouldn't be too much of an issue using white light.

jvo · May 21, 2018

welcome to photrio...
all good suggestions here! when i have disappointing results, it's always small adjustments that make a big difference.

good luck.

jvo

Mainecoonmaniac · May 21, 2018

Print developer should be at least 68°. According to your pic, it looks like you're comparison is matt paper vs glossy. Matt paper will never appear as black. Have you ever done a standard printing time test. A test where you get the maximum black with the least amount of exposure? You will have to do the test with an exposed portion of your negative. Take a look at this.
http://www.timlaytonfineart.com/blo...black-and-white-proper-proofs-in-the-darkroom

pentaxuser · May 21, 2018

15 degrees C is on the low side but all I can say is that your contact prints seem to have blacks that are as deep a black as I'd expect them to be. Based on the scene when each negative was taken which of the resulting prints' blacks are not black enough?

pentaxuser

Bill Burk · May 21, 2018

Not to harp on what Anon Ymous says but three minutes at twenty degrees Celcius is what I always use (with time corrections for any temperature fluctuation).

Kilgallb · May 31, 2018

Ilford states that after 1 minute multigrade RC paper will see no further development.

I beg to differ, Kentmere VC fine lustre needs at least 90 seconds.

mshchem · May 31, 2018

2 to 3 minutes minimum at 20 C , use glossy paper , if RC dry with a Ilford type dryer Use Selenium toner to increase D-max. What am I forgetting??. 2 minutes is good for RC . Fiber 3 minutes. Temperature is critical . I usually work at 70 F .

BMbikerider · May 31, 2018

I was advised a long time ago that to largely ignore the set times for developing at the paper stage. If I am using RC paper I always give AT LEAST 1,5 mins in the developing dish. We are paying for the silver they use to make the emulsion light sensitive so we may as well make the best of it. There used to be a risk of fogging the paper with extended developing but with modern materials and chemicals this will only very rarely happen and I cannot remember when it affected me.

The temperature for developing is not as critical as that for film but it should be as close as possible to 68f/20c to get the optimum results. A degree or two over is of no consequence. The companies such as Ilford go to great lengths and expence to give us the best results and we ignore these to our costs them blame the materials.

As an analogy if we boil on egg at 100C for 3.5 mins we get a good egg to eat. If we boil(?) an egg at 80c for 3 mins what we get is something not quite as good.

removed account4 · May 31, 2018

Kilgallb said:
Ilford states that after 1 minute multigrade RC paper will see no further development.

I beg to differ, Kentmere VC fine lustre needs at least 90 seconds.

maybe ....
i think it depends on the developer, its dilution and temperature.
it is true though that after a print is fully developed it will only develop a case of the greys... .

like with film developing times &c might be starting points. i know people who
instead of diluting dektol 1:2 for prints, or sprint 1:9, they double the dilution and lengthen the time...
not sure why, but its how they likes it...

darkroommike · May 31, 2018

Kilgallb said:
Ilford states that after 1 minute multigrade RC paper will see no further development.

I beg to differ, Kentmere VC fine lustre needs at least 90 seconds.

Apples and oranges, Kentmere VC is not Multigrade.

darkroommike · May 31, 2018

Are you saving and reusing your paper developer? With a few exceptions that's not a good idea.

And as far as the whole how long to develop thing, without a densitometer test you will be in the voodoo and alchemy zone.

I get great blacks using Dektol and Multigrade RC with a 60 second developing time. Room temp in the school darkroom is about 70 degrees year round. When my home darkroom gets below 65 degrees I turn on a space heater and put the developer tray in a tray of warm water.

With FB papers my standard time is 2 minutes with most of the current crop of neutral tone papers with standard developers. With the warm tone bunch it's 3-5 minutes.

Mainecoonmaniac · May 31, 2018

Kilgallb said:
Ilford states that after 1 minute multigrade RC paper will see no further development.

I beg to differ, Kentmere VC fine lustre needs at least 90 seconds.

Is that dependent if there is a developer incorporated in the paper emulsion?

Andrew O'Neill · May 31, 2018

Getting into this late, 15C is pretty cold. Try 20.

darkroommike · May 31, 2018

Mainecoonmaniac said:
Is that dependent if there is a developer incorporated in the paper emulsion?

The last Ilford Multigrade Rapid (developer incorporated) that I used was MG Rapid III, nice stuff but the paper turned brown after a few years in album storage. Are there any developer incorporated papers still available?

You could test by attempting to process a sheet of paper in a tray of accelerator rather than developer.

NO Deep Black Multigrade Paper

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