Nikon F3 vs F2 (My thoughts so far...)

[Les Sarile]

The list of things that are crippled on the F3 cs F2 can be very long...

- Awful "+/-" tiny meter display (instead of extremely clear LEDs or needles)
- Tiny, awful LED display (instead of clear numbers)
- Only two mechanical speeds. No battery tester to see how much you've left (unlike Canon F-1 and even Nikon's FE)
- Mushy shutter button, you never know where the trigger point is (unlike the precise F2 button)
- Viewfinder not as clear
- Finder Illuminator never works (it never fails on the F2SB and F2AS)
- You can have high eyepoint or good magnification but not both. F2 gives you both.
- Memory lock button often falls down with age
- Tiny, fragile multiple-exposure lever on akward location
- Confusing control placement, it's hard to remember which one is the self timer switch versus shutter button lock switch (they're identical). If the shutter is locked you might be confused and think the batteries are gone, since the behavior is exactly the same. The F2P fixed this with a mechanical shutter button lock.

and the worst of all...

- Meter relies on glass FRE resistor, which is placed exactly below the flash hot shoe. So if your flash bumps into a wall or somebody bumps with your flash, there's your chance for your meter to be gone because of breakage of glass FRE disc. This has happened before. So the most delicate part is placed where it can be knocked out.

Very extensive and informative list for sure!

I have the Modern or Popular Photography magazine of the F3 review from when they used to completely breakdown the camera to the components. I recall they had discussions with Nikon about the life span of the LCD and apparently at that time they weren't sure how long (months?) and therefore made it simple to replace. Obviously we're well beyond that expected life but both mine are good and I don't recall ever seeing that issue mentioned much - if at all. Anyone here experience that failure?

 

[M-88]

I know that a lot of people consider the F2 the pentacle of the Nikon F series

And a lot of people consider Leica, a brand currently manufacturing rangefinder cameras (a clearly obsolete concept, which gradually became obsolete exactly thanks to Nikon F) to be a pinnacle of film photography.

Still, progress is progress. If it weren't, we'd still be living in caves.

 

[film_man]

The list of things that are crippled on the F3 cs F2 can be very long...

- Awful "+/-" tiny meter display (instead of extremely clear LEDs or needles)
- Tiny, awful LED display (instead of clear numbers)
- Only two mechanical speeds. No battery tester to see how much you've left (unlike Canon F-1 and even Nikon's FE)
- Mushy shutter button, you never know where the trigger point is (unlike the precise F2 button)
- Viewfinder not as clear
- Finder Illuminator never works (it never fails on the F2SB and F2AS)
- You can have high eyepoint or good magnification but not both. F2 gives you both.
- Memory lock button often falls down with age
- Tiny, fragile multiple-exposure lever on akward location
- Confusing control placement, it's hard to remember which one is the self timer switch versus shutter button lock switch (they're identical). If the shutter is locked you might be confused and think the batteries are gone, since the behavior is exactly the same. The F2P fixed this with a mechanical shutter button lock.

and the worst of all...

- Meter relies on glass FRE resistor, which is placed exactly below the flash hot shoe. So if your flash bumps into a wall or somebody bumps with your flash, there's your chance for your meter to be gone because of breakage of glass FRE disc. This has happened before. So the most delicate part is placed where it can be knocked out.

This is just obnoxious.
- Awful +/- meter? It is an aperture prioirty camera.
- What's wrong with the LED? I can see it just fine and I wear glasses and don't even have the HP model. The illuminator is ridiculous, sure.
- It has one mechanical backup speed. That's pretty good considering this is AN ELECTRONIC CAMERA. Don't know how much battery is left? Yes you do, you can tell if the meter readout goes out quickly just like every other Nikon of that era.
- Never had a problem with the shutter trigger point, it is pretty clearly tangible where the half point is. In any case a two step trigger will never be as smooth as a mechanical one
- Ok, never had an F2 but the only camera with a clearer VF to the F3 I owned was the R8.
- Yup, the illuminator is a joke
- ok
- does the F2 have memory lock?
- does the F2 have multi-exposure?
- eh? the power button is in the same location as dozen of other camera, just under the trigger...

Anyway...I hate apples. They really are awful when I want to have an orange.

 

[CMoore]

This is just obnoxious.
- Awful +/- meter? It is an aperture prioirty camera.
- What's wrong with the LED? I can see it just fine and I wear glasses and don't even have the HP model. The illuminator is ridiculous, sure.
- It has one mechanical backup speed. That's pretty good considering this is AN ELECTRONIC CAMERA. Don't know how much battery is left? Yes you do, you can tell if the meter readout goes out quickly just like every other Nikon of that era.
- Never had a problem with the shutter trigger point, it is pretty clearly tangible where the half point is. In any case a two step trigger will never be as smooth as a mechanical one
- Ok, never had an F2 but the only camera with a clearer VF to the F3 I owned was the R8.
- Yup, the illuminator is a joke
- ok
- does the F2 have memory lock?
- does the F2 have multi-exposure?
- eh? the power button is in the same location as dozen of other camera, just under the trigger...

Anyway...I hate apples. They really are awful when I want to have an orange.

I had both and sold the F3, because i pretty much just shoot in manual mode.

But yes................. you really cannot "compare" a generation-2 product with a generation-3.
The F2 had run its course, technology was advancing and the F3 was inevitable.
There was no stopping the F3, For A LOT of people the aperture priority function was a HUGE Advantage.

They are both fine cameras. It is natural that one will suit the needs of some better than others.
No reason to go to war over this stuff.

 

[flavio81]

Wow Flav, that's some harshness on what many consider the pinnacle of manual focus SLRs.

I have an F3HP and aside from the puny meter readout and location of the hotshoe, the thing is near perfect compared to my many other SLRs. Closest camera that feels as nice aside from the F is my Spotmatic II.

Well, we do agree in some things after all...

 

[flavio81]

It may be worst than Flavio describes... mine only has one mechanical speed.

OMG, did all the electronics die?!

 

[flavio81]

I was wondering about there. Where did he find the second mechanical speed? Poking around online I think you can use T mode with the mechanical switch.

By reading the user manual. Yes, it has 1/90 and T.

 

[flavio81]

This is just obnoxious.
- Awful +/- meter? It is an aperture prioirty camera.

It is also a pro camera, target to people who often require the MANUAL mode...

- It has one mechanical backup speed. That's pretty good considering this is AN ELECTRONIC CAMERA

Not for a professional camera. The Canon New F-1 and Pentax LX have more mechanical speeds available.

. Don't know how much battery is left? Yes you do, you can tell if the meter readout goes out quickly just like every other Nikon of that era.

Correct, I stand corrected. Thanks.

- Never had a problem with the shutter trigger point, it is pretty clearly tangible where the half point is. In any case a two step trigger will never be as smooth as a mechanical one

So, we agree, right? Try the F2 trigger.

- Ok, never had an F2 but the only camera with a clearer VF to the F3 I owned was the R8

Well, you need to try a late-production F2. I have fitted a F3 focusing screen on my F2 and yes, it's brighter than the same sceen on a F3.

- does the F2 have memory lock?
- does the F2 have multi-exposure?

Yes it does have multi-exposure.

 

[flavio81]

I had both and sold the F3, because i pretty much just shoot in manual mode.

@film_man As you can see, pro photographers expect the manual mode to be comfortable to use, even if aperture priority is available. The Pentax LX and Canon F-1 have aperture priority and a easy-to-use manual mode.

But yes................. you really cannot "compare" a generation-2 product with a generation-3.
The F2 had run its course, technology was advancing and the F3 was inevitable.
There was no stopping the F3, For A LOT of people the aperture priority function was a HUGE Advantage.

Yes, i agree, Aperture Priority is a HUGE advantage, that's why I choose the Nikon FE over the FM for example.

My point, and I hope it hasn't been lost, is that the F3 could have been a much better product. It seems to have been designed by a different Nikon team (to the F2 and other products), because of some decisions that I can't quite comprehend. The "'+/-" display being the pinnacle. This is the only Nikon camera to have such a dreadful display.neither the FG, FE, FM, FA, F2SB, F2AS, FE2, and FM2 make this mistake. And this list includes cameras that came before the F3 and after it.

 

[BradS]

My point, and I hope it hasn't been lost, is that the F3 could have been a much better product. It seems to have been designed by a different Nikon team (to the F2 and other products), because of some decisions that I can't quite comprehend. The "'+/-" display being the pinnacle. This is the only Nikon camera to have such a dreadful display.neither the FG, FE, FM, FA, F2SB, F2AS, FE2, and FM2 make this mistake. And this list includes cameras that came before the F3 and after it.

I use the Nikon F3HP in manual exposure mode almost exclusively. I really don't have any issue at all with the meter display. The LCD in my F3 is in good condition and easy to see but does not distract. It's right there next to the view of the aperture. The '+' and '-' indicate which way to turn either the speed dial or the aperture ring to achieve correct exposure...so no need to take one's eye away from the view finder. It's elegant, intuitive and unobtrusive...

I also have and use the Nikon F2 with DP-1, DP-3 and DP-11...they're all good too.

 

[flavio81]

The '+' and '-' indicate which way to turn either the speed dial or the aperture ring to achieve correct exposure...so no need to take one's eye away from the view finder. It's elegant, intuitive and unobtrusive...

I just cross my fingers and wait until @Les Sarile makes a comparison between the meter display of his F3, F2AS, FE, New F-1 and LX, to illustrate how clear or easy to see is each metering display.

 

[film_man]

@film_man As you can see, pro photographers expect the manual mode to be comfortable to use, even if aperture priority is available. The Pentax LX and Canon F-1 have aperture priority and a easy-to-use manual mode.



Yes, i agree, Aperture Priority is a HUGE advantage, that's why I choose the Nikon FE over the FM for example.

My point, and I hope it hasn't been lost, is that the F3 could have been a much better product. It seems to have been designed by a different Nikon team (to the F2 and other products), because of some decisions that I can't quite comprehend. The "'+/-" display being the pinnacle. This is the only Nikon camera to have such a dreadful display.neither the FG, FE, FM, FA, F2SB, F2AS, FE2, and FM2 make this mistake. And this list includes cameras that came before the F3 and after it.

Here's a question for all you manual meter users on electronic cameras...if you are shooting manual mode yet using the in-built meter for metering and simply turn the wheel till the needle matches...how is that different from A mode? And maybe some exposure lock if you need to adjust?

 

[BradS]

Here are a a few very minor, nit-picky differences that I notice between the Nikon F2 and the Nikon F3

Back door release mechanism: I have big, dairy farmer hands and fingers. For me, the back door release mechanism on the Nikon F2 is easier to work that than that of the Nikon F3.

Light meter display illumination (in daylight): Outdoors, during the normal daylight hours, I almost always have a hat on to protect my skin from the sun. The hat blocks the little window that provides light to the F2 meters (other than those that have LED displays) but the hat does not block the window that provides illumination the the F3 meter LCD.

Location of the light meter light sensor(s): Light meter design involves making trade-offs. Every built in light meter design in every camera involves involves design trade offs - none are "perfect". This is the fundamental nature of engineering. It cannot be escaped. Specific to this thread, the Nikon F2 has the light sensing elements in the finder. The Nikon F3 has the light sensing element(s) in the body. This design trade-off results in many subtle differences between the two. For example, changing the focusing screen in an F2 may result in the need to also re-calibrate the light meter because the meter is measuring light coming through the focus screen. This is not an issue in the F3. There are several other non-trivial implications as well. (not pertinent to this thread but as an example of extreme design trade-offs, consider the light meter in the Leica rangefinder cameras that have built-in light meters...the light meter only works when the shutter is cocked and ready to fire! So, although the light meter is deadly accurate, it is only about a third as useful as it might be.)

The Nikon F3 finder is much easier to remove and replace than that of the Nikon F2....but this is of exceedingly little consequence to me as I very rarely remove the finder on either of them.

Light meter accuracy across the operating range: I've only owned one Nikon F3 but about 15~20 Nikon F2 (I currently have 5 Nikon F2 - one with DP-1, two with DP-11, and two with DP-3). Of the Nikon F2 I've owned, almost all have had the DP-1 or DP-11 finders. The meters in these use CdS cells. About half of these were dead or wildly inaccurate and the other half were pretty accurate but not accurate across the full range - they were off at the bright end or dim end or both. From the empirical evidence available to me, I conclude that this is just how it is with these old CdS light meters...at best, they were/are "good enough". As far as I can tell, the Nikon F3 does not suffer this type of error (again, sample size one). It is accurate across its full specified operating range - although it is impossible to see its LCD at the dark end of the range without clever application of additional, external lighting. Without accesory lighting, you cannot see the meter display in the DP-1 in the dark either.

Light meter "finicky-ness": The DP-3 and the DP-12 light meters I own (two DP-3) or have owned (one DP-12) have seemed to me to be a little finicky about ambient temperature and battery condition/ quality. They seem to really need fresh batteries - especially in cold weather - and seem to use battery much faster than the DP-1 and DP-11. So far, I've never noticed any such issues with the F3...and the vastly better F3 motor drive (reduced weight and cost, along with better ergonomics, and ease of use and improved reliability) means that it's not such a huge penalty to use the AA battery in the F3 motor drive to power the camera.

Film advance mechanisms: They're different. They feel different, They sound different. It is a very small difference and hard to quantify. I cannot say that one is better than the other but they are noticeably different. I will say that film advance in the one Nikon F2 that I had serviced by Sover Wong sounds and feels fantastic....significantly better than all the other Nikon F2 I have and have had. The film advance in the one Nikon F3 that I have is noticeably smooth and quiet but its stroke feels ever so very slightly longer than I prefer (the Sover Wong serviced F2 is about perfect in this regard).

Similarly with ergonomics. They both have superb ergonmics...but they are of course, slightly different. However, in terms of ergonomics, they are far more alike than they are different. Ergonomics are, of course, highly subjective. So, hold and feel and decided for yourself.

The Nikon F3 is slightly quieter in use than the F2...at least it seems so to me.

But for me, the BIG differences between the two make the Nikon F3 stand out as far superior to the Nikon F2. Namely, the integrated TTL flash metering and control, availablity to use aperture priority auto exposure mode, far better light meter accuracy and reliability, brighter focus screen and greatly improved motor drive of the Nikon F3 make it stand above my much loved Nikon F2.

All that said, I don't think you can go wrong with either of these. I keep, love and most importantly, regularly use both....and only infrequently use anything else and I have many other fine 35mm SLR to choose from. Most are packed away and do not get used at all anymore.

 

[flavio81]

Here's a question for all you manual meter users on electronic cameras...if you are shooting manual mode yet using the in-built meter for metering and simply turn the wheel till the needle matches...how is that different from A mode? And maybe some exposure lock if you need to adjust?

Manual mode is the most convenient/easy/quick way to apply exposure lock and exposure compensation at the same time.

Frame the area where no external extreme lights are invading the frame, apply exposure compensation (i.e. if subject is too light or dark) and that's it. Yes, easier than have to move an EV compensation dial. Thus, the exposure is (a) locked, (b) compensated for bright lights or dark areas that can throw the meter off and (c) compensated for subject brightness.

Auto exposure is great -and almost absolute need- when you have a subject that is constantly changing in lighting, like a performer at a rock concert. And in that situation the EV compensation dial is very useful, and the memory lock, useless.

 

[flavio81]

Of the Nikon F2 I've owned, almost all have had the DP-1 or DP-11 finders. The meters in these use CdS cells. About half of these were dead or wildly inaccurate and the other half were pretty accurate but not accurate across the full range - they were off at the bright end or dim end or both. From the empirical evidence available to me, I conclude that this is just how it is with these old CdS light meters...at best, they were/are "good enough".

Note that they are very accurate through most of the range if recalibrated. You had meters that were off-calibration. Sometimes the CdS cells need replacement, but that's rare with the DP-11 and even with the DP-1.

Internally there are pots for re-calibration.

Great review of F3 vs F2, though.

 

[Cholentpot]

Well, we do agree in some things after all...

The SPII is a gem. I was very pleasantly surprised the first time I used it. I just need a 50mm and I have the lineup in the bag.

 

[CMoore]

Here's a question for all you manual meter users on electronic cameras...if you are shooting manual mode yet using the in-built meter for metering and simply turn the wheel till the needle matches...how is that different from A mode? And maybe some exposure lock if you need to adjust?

JMO, but as a "manual shooter".........................i would say a beginner in photography would do just as you say.
After you shoot fro awhile, however, the meter becomes a tool that we interpret MUCH More often and do not (always) just choose the setting it would have picked in auto mode.
my 2 cents, adjusted for inflation

 

[Cholentpot]

JMO, but as a "manual shooter".........................i would say a beginner in photography would do just as you say.
After you shoot fro awhile, however, the meter becomes a tool that we interpret MUCH More often and do not just choose the setting it would have picked in auto mode.
my 2 cents, adjusted for inflation

I base exposures off meter reading but don't treat it as gospel. It's more of 'Thanks for the info, I'll take it from here'

 

[DREW WILEY]

I settled on an FM2n, specifically the limited edition titanium plated version. Ideal for me. I sold my FM3a because even it had too many redundant annoying bells n' whistles for me. I like total manual control, period. I too added a Beattie Intenscreen, the original version. I've heard less than nice things about the later ones.

 

[Huss]

All these complaints about the F3 about not having proper pro camera features is very funny given the commentators.

What matters is was the F3 accepted by pros? Not only was it embraced, but if far outsold all the other cameras which some commentators claim are the real pro cameras.
Apparently pros did not agree. The F3 was so good Nikon continued to make it even when they made the F5!
But the peanut gallery here? Not a pro camera as only one manual shutter speed!

 

[GregY]

All these complaints about the F3 about not having proper pro camera features is very funny given the commentators.

What matters is was the F3 accepted by pros? Not only was it embraced, but if far outsold all the other cameras which some commentators claim are the real pro cameras.
Apparently pros did not agree. The F3 was so good Nikon continued to make it even when they made the F5!
But the peanut gallery here? Not a pro camera as only one manual shutter speed!

You're right Huss. I was a skeptical user when they came out. But they proved to be every bit "Nikon" as far as being a rugged camera.

 

[Chan Tran]

Here's a question for all you manual meter users on electronic cameras...if you are shooting manual mode yet using the in-built meter for metering and simply turn the wheel till the needle matches...how is that different from A mode? And maybe some exposure lock if you need to adjust?

This is where the critism about the F3 meter and I knew that when I bought it but still it's fine. The idea of manual exposure using the meter is that you can set an exposure a certain amount above or below the meter reading. For example if someone using an FE in manual one can set so that the meter needle is above the shutter speed indicator by 1 or 2 stop thus increase exposure 1 or 2 stops above what the meter read. For the F3 you have to set it so that it indicates +/- which is exactly the meter wants then change either or both aperture or shutter speed by 1 or 2 stops. The F2AS or FM has 5 levels +, +0, 0, 0-, - while the F3 only has + +/- and -. That is the real short coming of the F3 meter. However, I am OK with that.

 

[BrianShaw]

You're right Huss. I was a skeptical user when they came out. But they proved to be every bit "Nikon" as far as being a rugged camera.

I was an enthusiastic user when the F3 came out… and still using mine. It seems rather silly to attempt to relitigate history, but that seems par for the course on the internet.

EDIT: and I picked up an FE about 10 years ago, which I often grab when I grab a 35mm camera. It’s a dandy camera!

 

[MattKing]

All these complaints about the F3 about not having proper pro camera features is very funny given the commentators.

What matters is was the F3 accepted by pros? Not only was it embraced, but if far outsold all the other cameras which some commentators claim are the real pro cameras.
Apparently pros did not agree. The F3 was so good Nikon continued to make it even when they made the F5!
But the peanut gallery here? Not a pro camera as only one manual shutter speed!

I've always found it interesting when people use the experience and preferences of professional photographers as a guide when recommending a camera.
Over the years, I dealt with a lot of different users of cameras. People with all sorts of interests, levels of experience and requirements. And it was always clear to me that the pro level equipment was often much better suited to the experienced and very demanding professional than it was to most serious amateurs, even when the price difference didn't matter.
And as for the sales and longevity of F2 vs. F3 models? That was as much due to the expectations of the times as anything else. When you compare the times - F2 being current vs. F3 being current - one major difference was that during the F3's time there were many more areas of photography where the clients and customers who bought product from professional photographers were likely to accept the quality that then current 35mm film offered - the films were that much improved.
In addition, I would suggest that the sort of professional photography that makes/made use of 35mm film was the sort of photography where the practitioners tended to be younger, rather than older. The F3 was designed for the new photographers of its time. I would suggest that the F2 was designed as much as a needed upgrade for the older photographers who had been using the F as it was for the newer photographers coming into the profession.
All of this is of course speaking in generalities. I knew older photographers who happily upgraded to and really liked the F3, as well as younger photographer who sought out the F2 at the time of transition to the F3. But mostly, I encountered younger photographers who would never have considered the F, the F2 or the F3, because they had no use for their capabilities or complexities.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Define "Pro". That's the gist of the problem. They weren't all hunting the same kind of subject matter, or all making their living doing exactly the same thing, so inevitably had somewhat different opinions about what potentially constituted the best equipment with the most relevant features. But even if you had two pros doing the very same kind of shooting, discussing it in the same room, they'd probably have divergences of personal preference, along with ergonomic proclivities.

I had an older friend who started out as a combat photographer, then for awhile was a White House photographer, and then at times was offered photo assignments on expeditions in extreme climates, like the Arctic. Do you think he selected the same Nikon model in each case?