Nikon F2 - Pre-AI or AI lenses? Also CLA question.

Twotone · Jul 14, 2023

Morning folks,

I once again request some guidance from my more experienced peers!

In my ongoing quest to build a future proof setup, I'm considering the F2 to fill the 'fully mechanical*, built to last' 35mm slot in my armoury, as I have several fully electronic SLRs currently which makes me nervous.

*Aside from the meter being electrical

F2 bodies for the most part seem to be relatively even in their pricing, however as always condition dictates, plus the different types of prisms will dictate things.

I'm open to needle or LED display options on the prism for metering, but the bit I'm unsure of is whether to go for an F2 with an AI compatible or pre-AI compatible meter. I want to figure this out before I pick one up so I don't have to fanny around with buying other prisms etc.

Some questions for you:

how does the offering compare with lenses between AI and pre-AI? Is there a particular option which is more well regarded than the other? And which has 'sharper' lenses?

As a separate point, I have seen various people online reference the lubricants etc that Nikon used in the F2 to be very long lasting. I always ensure all my cameras are CLA'd, does the F2 warrant any special treatment or special lubricants? I guess I wouldn't want it to need a more regular CLA than it has done previously due to lesser quality lubricants than factory being used next time it's serviced.

This is a road untravelled by me, however I'm very aware many of you will have hands on experience with these workhorses and/or know someone who does.

Thanks!
TT

cerber0s · Jul 14, 2023

Definitely go for AI, that will vastly increase your lens options. AI will let you use all of Nikons old AI lenses, as well as the modern ones that are still being manufactured.

The AI vs non AI makes no difference in quality. The AI (Automatic Indexing) is just the coupler for the apperture ring and has nothing to do with the optics of the lens. Nikon still use the very same coupler today on their AF lenses.

cerber0s · Jul 14, 2023

An addition: Non AI lenses are usually cheaper, because they can’t be used on modern digital Nikons. There are conversion kits that you can buy for a lot of them though, so many of the non AI can be converted to AI.

awty · Jul 14, 2023

The f2 is pretty bullet proof, don't know of any beyond repair.....maybe if you dropped one off the pier into salt water then retrieved it and used a blow torch to dry it, then tried picking it up and burnt your hand and threw it on the road and a bread van drove over, then I reckon it would probably need a major overhaul.
Buy all the lenses with bunny ears you can afford, they all work, prime lens are best.
Black f2's with eye level view finder are sexist.

Chan Tran · Jul 14, 2023

I would go for the AI as there are more AI lenses available. However, it is the Pre AI prism that can both meter Pre AI and AI lenses at full aperture. AI prism can only meter AI lenses at full aperture.

guangong · Jul 14, 2023

A different direction. I use meterless prism with hand held meter. More compact, with no concerns about meter dying, and can take all lenses. This is a question of personal taste, but offer as a possible alternative.

Chan Tran · Jul 14, 2023

guangong said:
A different direction. I use meterless prism with hand held meter. More compact, with no concerns about meter dying, and can take all lenses. This is a question of personal taste, but offer as a possible alternative.

Although I bought a brand new black meterless prism back in 1988 for $42 I think now one of those could go for several hundreds of dollars. I think the least expensive prism is the DP-1 and then the DP-11.

Twotone · Jul 14, 2023

guangong said:
A different direction. I use meterless prism with hand held meter. More compact, with no concerns about meter dying, and can take all lenses. This is a question of personal taste, but offer as a possible alternative.

Thanks for this suggestion, one I'm still definitely considering. I like to remove all weaknesses from cameras where possible.

That being said, the meter is a nice to have and would probably make things easier for me, however there is also the question around how accurate these meters are compared to external light meters.

Nitroplait · Jul 14, 2023

I think it depends on how you envision your system to grow and your economy.

An F2 with a DP-1, DP-2 or DP-3 finder (all non-AI) is by far the most flexible platform as it allows you to use all Nikon's manual focus lenses from 1959 up until to very recently where Nikon still had a few Nikon AI-S lenses in their catalogue.
In other words; non-AI cameras are forward compatible. AI cameras are not backward compatible unless you are OK with stopdown metering or have your non-AI lenses modified.

Unmodified non-AI lenses are super cheap and many of the later non-AI lenses where exactly the same optical formular as those sold later as AI.

Twotone · Jul 14, 2023

Thanks!

I wasn't aware that the pre-AI prism is compatible with AI lenses!

Chan Tran said:
I would go for the AI as there are more AI lenses available. However, it is the Pre AI prism that can both meter Pre AI and AI lenses at full aperture. AI prism can only meter AI lenses at full aperture.

Twotone · Jul 14, 2023

Thanks for this! This has highlighted that I need to get to grips more the compatibility of each meter.

So to clarify:
- a non-AI meter e.g. DP1, 2 or 3 will work with an AI lens? And if so, does that require any modifications?
- an AI meter e.g. DP11 will only AI lenses, or a pre-AI lens that is modified?

If so, it feels as though the pre-AI route makes the most sense (given I have complete compatibility) unless I've completely misunderstood/missed something!

Thanks

Nitroplait said:
I think it depends on how you envision your system to grow and your economy.

An F2 with a DP-1, DP-2 or DP-3 finder (all non-AI) is by far the most flexible platform as it allows you to use all Nikon's manual focus lenses from 1959 up until to very recently where Nikon still had a few Nikon AI-S lenses in their catalogue.
In other words; non-AI cameras are forward compatible. AI cameras are not backward compatible unless you are OK with stopdown metering or have your non-AI lenses modified.

Unmodified non-AI lenses are super cheap and many of the later non-AI lenses where exactly the same optical formular as those sold later as AI.

Chan Tran · Jul 14, 2023

Although a Pre AI prism (DP-1, DP-2, DP-3) would meter at full aperture with AI and AI/S lenses they can't meter at full aperture with the series E lenses (made for the EM) or any of the AF lenses. While the AI prism (DP-11, DP-12) will have to meter stop down with non modified Pre AI lenses they can meter at full aperture with the series E lenses as well as any AF lenses that have aperture ring.

FriedLouisStudio · Jul 14, 2023

In my parents' studio, we acquired Nikon gear for a decade but never made the leap to any AI bodies/lenses. I still use their non-AI lenses with an F2 and Nikkormat... mostly just estimating exposure with Tri-X (I have a working DP-1, but I prefer the smaller/lighter DE-1 prism). So alas, I have no hands-on and can't speak directly to non-AI vs. post-AI lenses.

What I can point out is that non-AI lenses are incredibly well-built (I'm using 1966- to 1973-vintage lenses my parents used for decades, NONE of which have ever required servicing) and, at a time when most vintage equipment prices are skyrocketing, they are bargains. Some absolute classics - 28/3.5, 50/1.4 and 50/2, 55/3.5 Micro, 105/2.5 - can be had for under $100, some closer to $50, from conservative-rating dealers like UsedPhotoPro:

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Some recent shots I've made with these classic lenses:

1968-vintage 28/3.5:

1972-vintage 35/2:

1969-vintage 45/2.8 GN (I LOVE this tiny lens!):

1966-vintage 105/2.5:

Obviously, the AI (and later) lenses/bodies have lots of advantages. But the old classic lenses can produce classic images and are remarkably inexpensive at a time when lots of old camera equipment has become way overpriced.

Nitroplait · Jul 14, 2023

Twotone said:
Thanks for this! This has highlighted that I need to get to grips more the compatibility of each meter.

So to clarify:
- a non-AI better e.g. DP1, 2 or 3 will work with an AI lens? And if so, does that require any modifications?
- an AI meter e.g. DP11 will only AI lenses, or a pre-AI lens that is modified?

If so, it feels as though the pre-AI route makes the most sense (given I have complete compatibility) unless I've completely misunderstood/missed something!

Thanks

Yes: A DP1/2/3 will work with any AI lens (with prongs/rabbit ears). No modifications required but be aware that a few people removed the prongs from their AI lenses.
The prong is required for the pre-AI bodies to meter.

and yes: DP11 etc. will meter only with AI lenses or modified Pre-ai.

BradS · Jul 14, 2023

Twotone said:
Thanks for this! This has highlighted that I need to get to grips more the compatibility of each meter.

So to clarify:
- a non-AI meter e.g. DP1, 2 or 3 will work with an AI lens? And if so, does that require any modifications?
- an AI meter e.g. DP11 will only AI lenses, or a pre-AI lens that is modified?

If so, it feels as though the pre-AI route makes the most sense (given I have complete compatibility) unless I've completely misunderstood/missed something!

Thanks

This is correct. In general, AI lenses will work just fine with earlier non-AI camera bodies but not the other way around. I remember this with, "Nikon want you to buy a new lens".

Of course, the pre-AI finders, require one to do the "Nikon Shuffle" immediately after mounting a lens - which is no big deal, just something to keep in mind.

....and, yes, the Nikon DP-1, DP-2 and DP-3 are compatible with all pre-AI and most AI lenses - every Nikon F mount lens that has the "bunny ears" will work and meter correctly. The Nikon DP-11 and DP-12 require AI lenses or an "AI'd" lens but will also work with the early AF lenses (which do not have bunny ears) as well .

Some further consideration:
- The light sensors in the DP-3 and DP-12 are photo diodes and the light sensors in the DP-1, DP-2 and DP-11 are CDS cells.
- The DP-1 and DP-11 have a meter needle the DP-2, DP-3 and DP-12 have LEDs.
- mounting a pre-AI lens on a AI body requires some extra care to prevent the lens from damaging the AI feeler on the AI body...so pre-AI on a Nikon F2AS or F2A requires one to move the AI feeler thingy out of the way before mounting the lens. Here is a very short video that shows what to do in this case.

BrianShaw · Jul 14, 2023

Twotone said:
As a separate point, I have seen various people online reference the lubricants etc that Nikon used in the F2 to be very long lasting. I always ensure all my cameras are CLA'd, does the F2 warrant any special treatment or special lubricants? I guess I wouldn't want it to need a more regular CLA than it has done previously due to lesser quality lubricants than factory being used next time it's serviced.

This would be the least of my concerns. Picking a legitimate shop with a good record and skilled technician(s) would be the first.

The lubricants specified by the manufacturer, especially in professional-level cameras/shutters/lenses, were typically the best of their day. Lubricant technology has progressed since then, of course. I would trust a legitimate repair shop to know what lubricants to use, and where, and how much. I can assure you.... they would not respect opinions on tools and materials offered by customers based on what folks on the internet think.

If you are going to use the camera in subfreezing or extreme desert environments... that might be worth discussing the potential need for special lubricants.

Twotone · Jul 14, 2023

BradS said:
This is correct. In general, AI lenses will work just fine with earlier non-AI camera bodies but not the other way around. I remember this with, "Nikon want you to buy a new lens".

Of course, the pre-AI finders, require one to do the "Nikon Shuffle" immediately after mounting a lens - which is no big deal, just something to keep in mind.

....and, yes, the Nikon DP-1, DP-2 and DP-3 are compatible with all pre-AI and most AI lenses - every Nikon F mount lens that has the "bunny ears" will work and meter correctly. The Nikon DP-11 and DP-12 require AI lenses or an "AI'd" lens but will also work with the early AF lenses (which do not have bunny ears) as well .

Some further consideration:
- The light sensors in the DP-3 and DP-12 are photo diodes and the light sensors in the DP-1, DP-2 and DP-11 are CDS cells.
- The DP-1 and DP-11 have a meter needle the DP-2, DP-3 and DP-12 have LEDs.
- mounting a pre-AI lens on a AI body requires some extra care to prevent the lens from damaging the AI feeler on the AI body...so pre-AI on a Nikon F2AS or F2A requires one to move the AI feeler thingy out of the way before mounting the lens. Here is a very short video that shows what to do in this case.

Thank you for this!

In your opinion, are the meters (both CDS and photo diodes) accurate by modern standards e.g. am I just going to get an average of the scene rather than centre weighted etc?

I really do think a meter would be useful, but at the same time, I'm used to matrix metering on the last EOS 35mm cameras, so I'd just be concerned that its adding an additional layer of potential issues.

Twotone · Jul 14, 2023

BrianShaw said:
This would be the least of my concerns. Picking a legitimate shop with a good record and skilled technician(s) would be the first.

The lubricants specified by the manufacturer, especially in professional-level cameras/shutters/lenses, were typically the best of their day. Lubricant technology has progressed since then, of course. I would trust a legitimate repair shop to know what lubricants to use, and where, and how much. I can assure you.... they would not respect opinions on tools and materials offered by customers based on what folks on the internet think.

If you are going to use the camera in subfreezing or extreme desert environments... that might be worth discussing the potential need for special lubricants.

Absolutely hear you on this! I'd ensure it gets the appropriate love.

Thanks

BrianShaw · Jul 14, 2023

(I have no idea why multiquote doesn't seem to work for me so here is done manually.)

TwoTone: ... That being said, the meter is a nice to have and would probably make things easier for me, however there is also the question around how accurate these meters are compared to external light meters.

BradS said:
...

Some further consideration:
- The light sensors in the DP-3 and DP-12 are photo diodes and the light sensors in the DP-1, DP-2 and DP-11 are CDS cells.
- The DP-1 and DP-11 have a meter needle the DP-2, DP-3 and DP-12 have LEDs.
- ...

You many know this already, but in-camera vs external light meter comparison is too broad to be of much value. Nothing, in my book, beats a Nikon center-weighted TTL metering, except perhaps, the later Nikon matrix metering offered in cameras that I don't own/use. Knowing the details and specific characteristics of the metering design/technology/implementation, whether in-camera or external, is essential to ensuring proper metering technique.

[EDIT: While I specified Nikon, I know that the weighted and matrix metering of other brands is fantastic, also. I'm just a "Nikon guy" in terms of 35mm' ]

CdS, for instance, has a bit of a metering lag and a bit of a memory for bright light. I've seen some folks consider that a flaw of the meter or initial engineering, but it's just a characteristic of the technology (which was really good in its day) that one needs to know about and work with.

Alan9940 · Jul 14, 2023

The F2 must be a pretty solid camera because I've had mine (bought new) since the late 70's and its never seen a CLA. Not bragging or proud on that point, rather it purrs along just fine today. The only issue I had with it is that the foam under the front of the prism that the mirror hits when it flaps up finally deteriorated and fell off. I bought a replacement foam set and fixed it myself.

BrianShaw · Jul 14, 2023

Alan9940 said:
The F2 must be a pretty solid camera because I've had mine (bought new) since the late 70's and its never seen a CLA. Not bragging or proud on that point, rather it purrs along just fine today. The only issue I had with it is that the foam under the front of the prism that the mirror hits when it flaps up finally deteriorated and fell off. I bought a replacement foam set and fixed it myself.

Same with F3. Bought mine in very early 80's and had it overhauled once, when the mirror foam gave up the ghost. There was no other reason except "future-proofing", as Twotone phrased it. The most frequently used AI lens, however, seems to like the focusing grease replaced every decade or so. to keep them feeling tight.

Alan9940 · Jul 14, 2023

BrianShaw said:
The most frequently used AI lens, however, seems to like the focusing grease replaced every decade or so. to keep them feeling tight.

Excellent point! I'll keep an eye on that.

4season · Jul 14, 2023

You may want to research your lenses on a case-by-base basis: In the case of the 55/2.8 Micro-Nikkor, it appeared that the AI-s variant had revised optics (don't know) with floating lens elements (confirmed), so that's what I went with.

BradS · Jul 14, 2023

Twotone said:
In your opinion, are the meters (both CDS and photo diodes) accurate by modern standards

Generally speaking, most (almost all) manual focus Nikon SLR light meters are heavily center weighted. The Nikon FA is a notable exception, it has an early variation on matrix metering and is fantastically amazing.

More importantly however is the fact that all Nikon F2 are now more than 40 years old. As good as the metering is/was, don't expect too many of the existing Nikon F2 light meters to be very accurate. In my experience, the probability of getting a Nikon F2 with working light meter that is accurate across the full specified operational range (from bright to dim light) today is less than 50%. Many seem to be pretty accurate but they're really only accurate in a small sweet spot of the brightness range (and that may be good enough). The DP-3 and DP-12 with their photo diodes seem to fare better than the DP-1, DP-2 and DP11 with CdS cells in this regard but it's hard to say for sure. If you want a manual focus Nikon with an accurate light meter and accurate shutter speeds, the best choice today seems, to me at least, to be the Nikon F3, or Nikon FM3A or perhaps, even a Nikon F4.

I've personally owned at least a dozen Nikon F2 over the past ten years and currently own five. At present, I have the DP-1, DP-2, DP-3 and DP-11 finders. Each has it's own charm. Some of them have developed little quirks. I like them all and I honestly could not choose a favorite among them. They're all good and each has it's own pros and cons. Don't expect perfection from any of these ~45 year old machines. Just get one in reasonably good condition and enjoy it.

icandide · Jul 14, 2023

@Twotone

Good morning,

A lot of excellent advice has been given. No need to contribute any by me, except: go to the Nikon imaging website (https://imaging.nikon.com/imaging/information/story/) and read what the nikon lens designers say about Nikkor lenses. It opened my eyes. I have a Nikon F2 with DP-1 & DP-11 prisms. I shoot all Nikkor lenses except those without manual aperture rings made since 1959. I love it!

I also have adapters to shoot Nikkor lenses with my Canon DSLR. (okay,it may be sacrilegious, but Canon ergonomics and color science are superior - in my opinion). Also, with a fotodiox adapter, I can use Pre-AI and later lenses on a Canon DSLR. I can shoot only AI and later mounts with my Nikon DSLR.

I Hope I helped. Enjoy the day
Earl

Nikon F2 - Pre-AI or AI lenses? Also CLA question.

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