Nikon F Focusing Problem

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Main_Cogg

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I have an early model F ( 640xxxx) that won’t focus properly. With the 5cm lens at infinity the focus is at ~ 7 feet and with it set to 2 feet the focus point is about 19 inches. I get similar results with other lenses. I haven’t shot any film with it, so I can’t say for certain that the final results match what I’m seeing through the viewfinder.
I should mention that this camera and lens was used by my late Uncle to shoot close-ups of his artwork. Is it possible that there is a shim behind the lens mounting flange that would act as a very short extension tube? There is nothing obvious, so would a .010 or so shim give these results?
Thanks
 

bdial

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It's possible, in doing a quick experiment with mine, it doesn't take much to shift infinity to that sort of range. Is there a visible gap between the mount and the body?
 

KN4SMF

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I'd be more tempted to believe the focus screen has been tampered with. Possibly reassembled wrong or some such. As for a home-brew shim behind the lens mount, not hardly as such a shim, if it were meant to be an "extension tube", would have been such a little amount as to be pointless.
 
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Main_Cogg

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bdial- nope, there isn’t a gap between between the mount and body. Can you measure the distance from the mount to the body? Mine is 0.155”

Eric- no change with the prism removed.
 

__Brian

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You should test if the actual focus at the film plane is off.

There are shims between the frame that the screen sits on and the body. Remove the screen, will see some screws that hold the frame in place. There were two metal shims on the Nikon F that I "accidentally" discovered after cleaning the foam from the mirror bumper. I dented one- managed to get back into shape. Not hard.
 

Peltigera

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I have an early model F ( 640xxxx) that won’t focus properly. With the 5cm lens at infinity the focus is at ~ 7 feet and with it set to 2 feet the focus point is about 19 inches. I get similar results with other lenses. I haven’t shot any film with it, so I can’t say for certain that the final results match what I’m seeing through the viewfinder.
I should mention that this camera and lens was used by my late Uncle to shoot close-ups of his artwork. Is it possible that there is a shim behind the lens mounting flange that would act as a very short extension tube? There is nothing obvious, so would a .010 or so shim give these results?
Thanks
The only test that a matters is with film. If the image in the viewfinder is in focus and the image on the film is in focus, the reading on the lens barrel does not matter at all. I would suspect the lens rather than the body but a test film will tell you for sure.
 

bdial

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bdial- nope, there isn’t a gap between between the mount and body. Can you measure the distance from the mount to the body? Mine is 0.155”

Eric- no change with the prism removed.
mine is .133, it's also a newer body though, so there might be some differences, in theory.
I'd probably check the focus at the film plane before removing things, though I expect the mounting flange isn't a complex assembly. There is a repair manual floating around the web. It's been referenced in a few threads recently.

I'm not sure how hard or easy reassembling the screen upside down is, but it's possible, I guess. Checking at the film plane should tell the tail.
 
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Main_Cogg

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Thanks for all the replies. I haven’t shot any film because when I tried a dummy roll the advance wasn’t consistent. Thought I would start with the focusing before moving on to the next problem.
 

__Brian

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I have the Nikon F Repair Manual in PDF format, 20MBytes.

ALSO FOUND IT ONLINE:

http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/RTV/Foto/Nikon F Repair manual.pdf

There is a section for setting flange to film plane distance. The F uses the same spacers as the SP, I've used small washers for this operation on an S2.

Your problem is front-focus. Unless there are spacers, the manual states that the mount ring needs to be ground down. "Yeauchhh".
Check the focus at the film plane before taking the mount off.
 
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Main_Cogg

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Brian, thank you for the link to the manual. Unfortunately, it doesn't state what the correct distance from the bayonet flange to the film plane should be. If I had that magic number I could clear up this mystery in just a few minutes.
 

Brett Rogers

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It's possible the body register is off but far less likely than the lens or finder calibration. In order for the lens register to be the issue, the only likely explanation would have to be the camera had some impact damage or a person tampered with the adjustment. Unless a camera's had a major hit, this is not something that tends to go wrong—meaning there's little reason someone would be inclined to mess with it (unless, of course, disassembly was needed to repair something else and the re-assembly resulted in some misplaced or absent shims perhaps, but I'd suggest the odds of this are also rather long).

Still—do not lose sight of the big picture. Presently the F has an issue somewhere, you're aware of that—but it can't be remedied, until it has been located.

If you have some other lenses and or bodies, much time might potentially be saved via some quick substitution. You've not mentioned access to additional lenses or Nikon bodies so I don't know if this is feasible for you.

But Eg if the 50mm lens in question hits infinity at its stop on another, known-good body, you can be reasonably confident the lens is not at fault, and concentrate on the test camera, first.

On the other hand, if the 50mm lens behaves exactly the same way fitted to another, trusted, body, I would be inclined to, obviously, investigate that, first.

Let's assume the lens itself happens to be OK. To pinpoint the root of the problem the correct place to start is at the film plane. You could think of this as the master, or primary calibration. In virtually any design of camera that facilitates focusing verification by the user (as distinct from scale focus) the camera body is adjusted either to achieve best possible focus between body and lens (if a non-interchangeable lens design), or to a standard lens flange to film plane dimension (interchangeable lens design). The viewing system for adjusting the focus is then dialled in to match the film plane—never vice-versa.This is actually the case whether the design in question happens to be a single lens reflex, twin lens reflex or even a rangefinder. The schematics may differ but the principle is the same.

When, and only when, it's been verified that the body calibration (or body to lens, in the case of a fixed lens design) is good, should adjustment of the viewing system be attempted.

The F is obviously an interchangeable lens camera. There are various ways to measure the lens register. Vernier calipers, whilst not as accurate as a high quality depth gauge and surface plate will still get you close enough to get started, providing you can ease their jaws across to both the relevant surfaces. Given you must take a measurement off the inner rails and not those for the pressure plate, (or have the jaws fouled by any other part of the body), this may or may not be quick, easy and repeatable.

If using a depth gauge and surface plate parallel blocks or another object with accurately parallel planes will usually be needed to get the critical measurement off those film rails instead of, say, the rear of the body which will be incorrect.

I have carried out these inspection procedures on a number of occasions, and still do from time to time, if I think it's necessary. Depending on what other equipment I have on hand though, I'll exercise quicker options if they're appropriate.

Eg as mentioned above, if I have access to other lenses and bodies that are known to be in good adjustment, checking the focus image of those lenses at the film plane of the test camera, and that of the test lens at the film plane of another, known good body, will quickly and accurately eliminate the various possible locations of a focus problem.

Assuming you don't have any other lenses or bodies in your shoes I would probably start by inspecting the focus of the lens at the film plane. A ground glass and loupe, or a trusted SLR may be used to do this.

If you can verify that the film plane image actually agrees with the finder image at all focus settings—whilst this does not, in itself, verify that the relevant lens register of the body is good—the balance of probabilities is such that you may proceed on the assumption that it's OK, because film plane and finder images being a good match—the lens, if it's going substantially beyond infinity at the film plane, will almost certainly out of calibration.

On the other hand, should the film plane image show a sharp infinity image with the lens at its infinity stop, then, from your description above—the focus screen//eyepiece diopter/mirror condition are suspect, and require investigation because there is an unacceptable divergence from the film plane.
Cheers,
Brett
 
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MattKing

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You need to do a film test. The problem might simply be that the distance scale on the outside of the lens isn't properly located - the lens and camera may focus perfectly otherwise.
 
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Main_Cogg

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Time for an update. First thanks again for all the information and suggestions. Spoiler alert, the problem is not resolved. To re-cap what I’ve done so far;
The original 5cm lens has been mounted on my Nikkormat, works fine.
Several other lenses have been mounted to the F, all with similar results. When the lens is set to infinity, objects at about 7 feet are in focus.
I did the Scotch tape as a ground glass at the film plane test with the 5cm lens, infinity is infinity and 2 feet is 2 feet. Good news.
Thanks to Ian for the required flange to film distance, checked that with depth mics and a surface plate. It’s off by .05mm, .002 inches. That has to be within tolerance. More good news.
At this point I’m convinced the problem is somewhere above the mirror.
Remembering that Brian had mentioned 2 shims under the focusing screen frame, that’s the next thing I checked. Only 1 shim was present. Before spending the time to source or make another shim I did a quick check by putting a layer of tape on the shim. That took the thickness from .004” to .009”. Reassembled, very little difference. Removed the shim completely, very little change. Maybe the prism is the problem. Re-did the shim/ no shim checks looking at the focusing screen with a magnifier. Same results. Added tape to the shim to make it .020” thick. That made a difference. Unfortunately the change was the wrong direction. Removed the shim and the frame, that just about made things right. I don’t see how the focusing screen can be bad, but that’s the only thing that I haven’t swapped. Any suggestions on a source?
 

Theo Sulphate

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...
I did the Scotch tape as a groundglass at the film plane test with the 5cm lens, infinity is infinity and 2 feet is 2 feet. Good news.
...
At this point I’m convinced the problem is somewhere above the mirror.
...

Yes, that's correct. I believe your groundglass is too far from the mirror. Being further away, if you set the lens to infinity (and an object at infinity is in focus at the film plane, which you've confirmed), then a much closer object will appear in focus on your too-far-away groundglass.
 

__Brian

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The glass of the focus screen sits in a frame: does it show any signs of having moved?

Foc Screens are readily available, and fairly cheap.
 

KN4SMF

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Like I said earlier. Somebody had disassembled the focusing screen and it's curved glass and reinserted the screen upside down.
 

Theo Sulphate

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Or maybe the wrong screen?
 

__Brian

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nikon_screen2.jpg
The curved portion of the glass should be on the top of the screen, the "Nikon F" label and screen type indicate the top of the screen.
RIMG0062.JPG


The frame is ~5mm thick. If it were upside down, the focus would be much farther off. The bottom of the flat screen extends "ABOUT" 0.5mm past the frame. If the bottom was "hung-up" on the metal of the frame, the error would be about what you are observing.
 
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Ariston

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Forgive the obvious suggestion, but just in case, I want to mention that the focus distance is to the film plane, not the front of the lens. I only mention it because I'm not sure where hyperfocal distance is. Seven feet seems to short for hyperfocal... but it makes sense for the two-foot focus.
 
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Main_Cogg

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Brian, thanks for the photos,that’s exactly how mine looks. I’ll get a screen ordered today and do a swap.
 
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