New Video regarding HP Design-jet & Digital Negatives

[Ron-san]

Friends,

I just read through Angel Albarran's PDF describing the new HP approach to digital negatives. Here is how I see it:

In the HP method negative contrast is set by adding more or less black to a specific green color. This is a fine method, kind of a combination of choosing a specific color with the correct contrast (PDN and RNP array) or setting maximum ink limits (in either the Epson driver or QTR).

The HP digital negative module alters the ink settings so that a gradient of ink tones, from 0 to 100% ink, will linearly transmit UV light over the entire gradient. This would appear to be a useful innovation. The claim in the PDF (which appears reasonable to me) is that linearizing UV transmission will reduce the severity of any subsequent correction that might be applied. HOWEVER, few photo emulsions I know of respond linearly to UV light. So, a correction curve will almost always be needed (as acknowledged in the PDF).

The necessary correction curve is still applied to the image file. But, since it will hopefully be more mild it should also be less destructive.

One of the good parts is that the HP method takes advantage of the built-in spectrophotometer to measure a test print and construct the correction curve.

The really good news, to my mind, is at the end of the PDF. A method is detailed to use the built-in spectrophotometer to profile the entire tri-color gum printing process and make the needed ICC profiles. In principle you would then be able to color correct tri-color gum printing and get the exact color you originally aimed for. This could be a great boon for gum printers striving for predictable color output.

BUT, as nice as the HP method seems to be, I will still stick to QTR.

HP has decided that green with some black is the best color for even smooth tonality. Maybe so, maybe no. It is not my choice and in the HP method you have no control over the color.

And, I still prefer to put all the corrections on the ink settings and not on the image file.

Bottom line, it is really great that a big company like HP would pay attention to the needs of our rather niche market (unlike some big companies we could name). The the HP solution is really pretty good. Like they say, it is a contender.

Ron Reeder

 

[Davec101]

Thanks Ron for casting your expert eyes over the documentation, it certainly has made it clearer for me and like you said it sounds like a viable option. Full credit to Angel for being able to convince a leading printer manufacturer that hybrid technique is the future and putting the hard work into creating this option for all of us who use digital negatives. I would imagine the other manufactures might jump in at some stage if they feel they are losing sales as a result of HPs forward thinking.

One thing the I would like ask Angel on this open thread is whether HP are going to offer support for this module? I noticed a disclaimer at the end of the pdf that got me thinking that support may not be an option.

 

[Solarize]

I am not in the market for a new printer, having bought a 3880 quite recently... but skimming the document and watching the video, it really is fantastic to see HP pushing forward with this.

David; the new darkroom setup looks great. Hope you are having fun printing in there!

 

[pschwart]

I am not in the market for a new printer, having bought a 3880 quite recently... but skimming the document and watching the video, it really is fantastic to see HP pushing forward with this.

David; the new darkroom setup looks great. Hope you are having fun printing in there!

If HP would put this technology in a 17" printer, then we would have something to celebrate. I've got to think that a 24" printer is just too big for most users.
I really don't need anything larger than a 13" carriage, but I am willingto step up to 17" for a better build and professional features. Anything bigger doesn't make any sense for me.

 

[Angel Albarrn]

Hi all again and thank you for your warm welcome,

Of course I'll happy writing here about alternative processes. About printers, as you can imagine, working for HP I cannot disclose many things.
About some of your questions I can tell you that:

Yes, the Z3200 is a normal printer released some years ago. Digital negatives is something added later.

Yes, you can use a Z3100 to print the negative, but you will not be able to use the internal spectrophotometer to calibrate the system.

I didn't know about the possibility of tweaking Canon printers. Pretty interesting.

Yes, this solution is more of the same (in the sense that the color is a filter for the UV) and no, because the normal curve that is used to "correct" the response is here applied as a change in the dithering. Anyway, I'd prefer not to discuss too many of the internal details. I'm sorry, but you must understand my position.

And no, HP will not give support to this solution (as it explained in the document disclaimer). I cannot imagine training someone about platinum, Kallytype, Carbon, Carbro... to answer online about this kind of questions ;O).

I use this solution for my photos ( I work in Pt/Pd) and I'm pretty happy with the results. Much happier than before (But I cannot say what was my previous workflow - sorry -). Anyway, all of you work with alternative processes, you know how whimsical they are. If you have a workflow which works, do not change it!.
And for the same reason, before buying something try to test it first.

Thank you again,

Angel.

 

[Loris Medici]

...
Thanks David. It's a shame it's on Youtube the site is banned in Turkey, so I can't access, it.
...

Ian, try to use opendns ip numbers - in place of ISP provided ones...

And thanks much to all for their participations - Angel in first place...

Angel, I'd like to see HP extending this tool to every printer that can do closed loop calibration. I personally use HP B9180 for making digital negatives (and positive prints also!), and I'm very happy with it - especially so after the latest firmware upgrade. (It was literally drinking ink before the update...) I know this printer is equally capable as the Z3200; it uses the same printheads and inks, no?

Regards,
Loris.

 

[J Vee]

How on 3100?

Angel, really appreciate your effort to make dig neg practical but I can't see how we can apply this at all for the 3100. We can't install the "paper" profile because of a "dependency error" -- not the right firmware version (not 3200 firmware). Additionally we have no option at the wheel to export a chart for printing. J Vee

 

[Ian Grant]

Angel, really appreciate your effort to make dig neg practical but I can't see how we can apply this at all for the 3100. We can't install the "paper" profile because of a "dependency error" -- not the right firmware version (not 3200 firmware). Additionally we have no option at the wheel to export a chart for printing. J Vee

HP have backed, by making it readily available and publicising it, Angel's work for a specific printer, he did most of the development work himself because his work skills for HP happened to match those needed his personal interests.

HP will make almost no money from any of this, it's unlikely to make any real impact on sales, maybe a few extra though and a lot of Kudos

So if we want to do similar with other HP models we are on our own. If you're really lucky someone might give you some pointers.

Ian

 

[Loris Medici]

I think this novelty has a certain potential of increasing the sales HP's of advanced printers with carriage size >= A3+ / 13"... (Which also can do CLC and profiling - I think it's time for a A3+ desktop printer that can profile itself anyway!) Many people interested in alt-processes ask for a recommendation of printer; frankly, such a new model would be my first (and only!) recommendation...

Regards,
Loris.

 

[Ian Grant]

I think this novelty has a certain potential of increasing the sales HP's of advanced printers with carriage size >= A3+ / 19"... (Which also can do CLC and profiling - I think it's time for a A3+ desktop printer that can profile itself anyway!) Many people interested in alt-processes ask for a recommendation of printer; frankly, such a new model would be my first (and only!) recommendation...

Regards,
Loris.

Maybe HP should look at how much it would cost someone like Angelo to investigate

IAn

 

[pschwart]

I think this novelty has a certain potential of increasing the sales HP's of advanced printers with carriage size >= A3+ / 19"... (Which also can do CLC and profiling - I think it's time for a A3+ desktop printer that can profile itself anyway!) Many people interested in alt-processes ask for a recommendation of printer; frankly, such a new model would be my first (and only!) recommendation...

Regards,
Loris.

You are right! HP won't make any $$$ on this as long as it is only available on printers costing thousands -- it need to be pushed down into the realm of better quality consumer models. If HP doesn't want to do the work, they might consider making an SDK (software development kit) or at least publishing the software interfaces so we can do the value-add work ourselves.

 

[Angel Albarrn]

Angel, really appreciate your effort to make dig neg practical but I can't see how we can apply this at all for the 3100. We can't install the "paper" profile because of a "dependency error" -- not the right firmware version (not 3200 firmware). Additionally we have no option at the wheel to export a chart for printing. J Vee

Thank you Vee.

As I explained in my first post I tested everything in Z3200. I had no access to a Z3100 when I was developing all this. It is for this reason (that it was not tested) why it is not included as supported in the official PDF document.

I imagine that in some moment Z3100 firmware and Z3200 firmware were similar enough to interchange paper files (I remember that I did it in the past, at the beginning of Z3200 machine development). But I guess that the new versions of the firmware have affected this possibility.

I'm sorry to know that Z3100 with new firmware is not able to use large format negatives paper.

I cannot promise you much, but having in mind that a lot of people have the Z3100 and both machines have the same Green and Black, I'll try to understand the problem causing it.

What I can also suggest is that you use any system that you have (as PDN digital negatives) and try mixing green and black. I haven't tested it, but I imagine that it could work.

I'll try to continue posting here trying to help you.

And yes, the chart cannot be exported, it is for this reason that I was saying that the system cannot be calibrated. This was, in fact, one of the new features of Z3200.

Angel.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi Angel

I have the use of a HPz3200 ps 44 inch printer.

Where do I find the software, to make negs?
I am excited to try, I am visiting Sandy King this fall and would love to test before I see him.
Don B if I can make it happen send me a file for me to print , you to Carl.

 

[Angel Albarrn]

Hi Bob,

You can find the document explaining how to use it here:
http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/download/MakingHPLargeFormatPhotoNegatives1_0.pdf

And the paper preset plus some calibration files here:
http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/download/HPLargeFormatPhotoNegatives.zip

Thank you for your interest.

Angel.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I should have said , where do I purchase the software? HP direct?

Hi Bob,

You can find the document explaining how to use it here:
http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/download/MakingHPLargeFormatPhotoNegatives1_0.pdf

And the paper preset plus some calibration files here:
http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/download/HPLargeFormatPhotoNegatives.zip

Thank you for your interest.

Angel.

 

[Angel Albarrn]

Hi Bob,

All you need are this two files. The solution is free.
The only thing that you need to do is to download them and enjoy making negatives.
(And to let me know if you have any problem).

Angel.

 

[Angel Albarrn]

I should have said , where do I purchase the software? HP direct?

Sorry Bob,
I have replied you in the bad thread.

All you need are this two files. The solution is free.
The only thing that you need to do is to download them and enjoy making negatives.
(And to let me know if you have any problem).

Angel.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Thanks Angel

I am sure I will have questions.

bob

Sorry Bob,
I have replied you in the bad thread.

All you need are this two files. The solution is free.
The only thing that you need to do is to download them and enjoy making negatives.
(And to let me know if you have any problem).

Angel.

 

[Paco-t]

Hi Angel, and all (as I am new here),
Considering this/your Digital Large Negative Printing solution,
to print only Images from Photoshop, I could use the Raster Z3200 hp printer (Q6718A)...or is the Postcript one (Q6720A) necessary ?
I was at Arles for the Rip2010 but did not assist to the presentation ;
Is there any HP contact here, in France (with knowledge about Digital Large Neg for Pt/Pd) ?
Thanks, Regards, Ft

 

[Angel Albarrn]

Hi Angel, and all (as I am new here),
Considering this/your Digital Large Negative Printing solution,
to print only Images from Photoshop, I could use the Raster Z3200 hp printer (Q6718A)...or is the Postcript one (Q6720A) necessary ?
I was at Arles for the Rip2010 but did not assist to the presentation ;
Is there any HP contact here, in France (with knowledge about Digital Large Neg for Pt/Pd) ?
Thanks, Regards, Ft

Hi Ft,
Z3200PS and z3200 (non PS) are ok.
Anyway as I explained in this forum and it is indicated in the PDF of HP, HP is not giving support to this, so if you're planning to buy a printer ONLY for this purpose I would recommend you to check first if the solution works fine for your alternative process.

I'm sorry, but I don't know anyone in HP France with knowledge about this matter. In fact, the only one that I know in Spain is myself ;O)

Thank you for your interest,

Angel.

 

[jimcollum]

i know this is an old thread, and it appears Angel is no longer with the forum.

Is there anyone out there using either the HP z3100 or z3200 the way outlined in the video and pdf? From what I can tell , the paper preset (.oms file) is specific to the z3200, although the z3100 uses the same green ink (and should have the same UV response).

I've been using the z3100 and the PDN method, but photoshop curves are not very precise, and can end up with issues in the highlights, given the extreme curves used. As with QTR, having it done in the printer solves this issue.

So my questions, has anyone managed to get Angel's preset working with a z3100?

I've read through his instructions, and one of the steps is to use the Color Center on the HP Utility to print out a specific calibration pattern (using " Select the paper type, then press the gear-wheel button at the bottom of the window (Fig.16) and from the drop-down menu select Color Measurement" )

I'm running Mac OSX Lion, and although it has the HP Utility, and Color Center is part of it, there is not Color Measurement option in the drop down menu. Anyone out there with a similar configuration see it?

The 3100 has worked flawlessly for me since they came out, and i'm hesitant to just junk it and buy a z3200

thanks all in advance!

jim

 

[Davec101]

i know this is an old thread, and it appears Angel is no longer with the forum.

Is there anyone out there using either the HP z3100 or z3200 the way outlined in the video and pdf? From what I can tell , the paper preset (.oms file) is specific to the z3200, although the z3100 uses the same green ink (and should have the same UV response).

jim

Hi Jim

Recently I tested the HP z3200 with the digital negative driver over a two month period of time as I was interested to see how it compared with other methods of creating digital negatives.

From a technical point of view the printer is essentially using 2 inks to lay down the image onto transparency film and more often than not its just one and there no way of altering/configuring this. Essentially this is what we were doing 6-7 years ago when we were using the older printer units such as the Epson 2100 & 1290 for creating digital negatives, as such the inherent problems like banding and the like rear there ugly head.

When compared to the latest Qtr systems of digital negative creation, which are highly configurable and use up to 7 inks for increased printing resolution, there is simply no contest.

Although it was initially great to see a large company such as HP get involved in this particular area of photography I was disappointed with the unit and the resulting platinum prints. There is no support for the driver from HP or anyone else, nor is their likely to be in the future, as such I find it hard to recommend this unit for either beginners or advanced users interested in creating digital negatives.

 

[jimcollum]

thanks for responding so quickly!

That's too bad.. i was hoping on something similar to the QTR solution, but for HP. For all other printing, I've found my time with the 3100 to be much better than with my Epson's (3000, 7000, 9000, 9500, 7600). I've had the 3100 since they were released, and have never had a head clog (sometimes months have gone by without printing). I've been able to use it for digital negatives, using a combination of Mark's PDN, ChartThrob to get the curve. The problem with the Photoshop curve solution is that the curves are so extreme, that getting any sort of precision is difficult. From what I've read of the QTR method, this isn't the case.

Using the PDN/Chartthrob method, you'd still be using a minimal # of inks. I suspect having the linearization done in the printer rather than photoshop would still be more precise.

(and i don't think i'll be holding my breath for QTR type software for the HP.. and getting an Epson for negs is more an issue of 'where would i possibly put *2* printers that size

thanks again Dave!

 

[Davec101]

thanks for responding so quickly!

That's too bad.. i was hoping on something similar to the QTR solution, but for HP. For all other printing, I've found my time with the 3100 to be much better than with my Epson's (3000, 7000, 9000, 9500, 7600). I've had the 3100 since they were released, and have never had a head clog (sometimes months have gone by without printing). I've been able to use it for digital negatives, using a combination of Mark's PDN, ChartThrob to get the curve. The problem with the Photoshop curve solution is that the curves are so extreme, that getting any sort of precision is difficult. From what I've read of the QTR method, this isn't the case.

Using the PDN/Chartthrob method, you'd still be using a minimal # of inks. I suspect having the linearization done in the printer rather than photoshop would still be more precise.

(and i don't think i'll be holding my breath for QTR type software for the HP.. and getting an Epson for negs is more an issue of 'where would i possibly put *2* printers that size

thanks again Dave!

Its a shame really as the unit on paper sounded like a good idea. If a printer manufacturer is going to do something similar in the future they should attempt to get fully behind the project rather putting it out there with no support and little testing in the real world. Unfortunately Angel no longer works for HP or even uses the z3200 with the digital negative software, so it is unlikely there will ever be an update, however he should be commended for the work that he has done in raising the awareness of digital negative creation with a leading printer manufacturer.

 

[jimcollum]

i sent a mail thru Angel's web site, but haven't heard back. After doing a bunch of research tonight, it appears that the Color Calibration dialog only appears if you're connecting the HP Utility to a z3200 printer... so getting his preset converted to the 3100 wouldn't help much

wonder if there's a better ('accurate') plugin for curves.. what I get after calibration is: