New, very low ISO film for anyone interested

Huss · Jul 24, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
@Huss: very nice results! Seems to be a film made for DF96.

Thanks! Yeah I was really pleasantly surprised and gambled the test roll in it, just to see.

I have an update on Ilford Pan F 50 - not good in DF96. I've developed a few rolls now, and they all have come back very thin. These were taken in different cameras (that work perfectly) so it is not an exposure issue.

Donald Qualls · Jul 24, 2020

Huss said:
I have an update on Ilford Pan F 50 - not good in DF96. I've developed a few rolls now, and they all have come back very thin. These were taken in different cameras (that work perfectly) so it is not an exposure issue.

Because of the way a monobath balances development against fixing, it's very possible for some films to lose effective speed where others do fine (or even gain speed, a little). My experience has been that .EDU Ultra 100 (Fomapan 100) seems to lose a stop or more in Df96 -- rolls from the same batch and camera that look very good in Xtol-R. Pan F might be another film that "fixes faster than it develops" and hence might require increased temperature and minimal agitation (but watch out, even with agitation every minute, I've seen bromide drag in Df96 about halfway through its capacity).

Huss · Jul 24, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
.. (but watch out, even with agitation every minute, I've seen bromide drag in Df96 about halfway through its capacity).

Yep, seen that too. I have now switched my agitation to on the minute, and one inversion at the 30 second mark. I do a twist/rotate and that has taken care of it.

Paul Howell · Jul 24, 2020

It's Eastman duplicating film, use to be in 4X5 as well as 35mm, used to copy photographs and I know that some used to make a positive slide from a negative. Folks also made a copy of 35mm on 4X5 then copied the 4X5 copy which was then printed. Freestyle sells it along with other Eastman specialty films. I bought a roll have not gotten around to shooting it, I guess I will shoot it at ISO 10.

Paul Howell · Jul 24, 2020

Here is a link to the Kodak data sheet.

https://www.kodak.com/content/produ...anchromatic-Negative-Film-2234-data-sheet.pdf

Huss · Jul 24, 2020

Paul Howell said:
It's Eastman duplicating film, use to be in 4X5 as well as 35mm, used to copy photographs and I know that some used to make a positive slide from a negative. Folks also made a copy of 35mm on 4X5 then copied the 4X5 copy which was then printed. Freestyle sells it along with other Eastman specialty films. I bought a roll have not gotten around to shooting it, I guess I will shoot it at ISO 10.

Can you provide a link? I cannot find anything on Freestylephoto.biz

Paul Howell · Jul 24, 2020

https://www.ultrafineonline.com/ko52blwhfi352.html

Look under Black and White Film, Kodak, at the bottom of the page.

Huss · Jul 24, 2020

I found this:

https://www.ultrafineonline.com/ko52blwhfi352.html

It could well be this, but rated at ISO 8 instead of 6.

Huss · Jul 24, 2020

p.s. thanks for the heads up! Others were claiming it was Orwo film. I'll give this a shot.

Paul Howell · Jul 24, 2020

This is what I see

Kodak 5234 Black & White Film 35mm Pan Fine Grain Duplicating ISO 6

Paul Howell · Jul 24, 2020

BTW I'm going to develop in Formulary D3 a clone of Ilford ID3 which can be used as a divided developer, figure I wont need to guess about a developer and developer.

Huss · Jul 24, 2020

Paul Howell said:
This is what I see

Kodak 5234 Black & White Film 35mm Pan Fine Grain Duplicating ISO 6

Yes and I just bought some to compare. It looks like this is the film that Lomo has repackaged, but I will report back once I get my hands on it.

markjwyatt · Jul 24, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
@Huss: very nice results! Seems to be a film made for DF96.

If you look at the link from the OP, see the series of the young lady developed in different developers, D96 is the only one that shows a more full tonal range (maybe derates ISO?). It is also the developer that Lomography recommended for this film.

Paul Howell · Jul 24, 2020

It's also the developer listed by Kodak on the data sheet. But, I don't have D96 so an experiment with a divided developer.

Donald Qualls · Jul 24, 2020

FWIW, D96 is a published formula and doesn't contain anything exotic -- phenidone and hydroquinone, carbonate alkali, some sulfite, a little bromide restrainer, as I recall. It's active enough to work well with a rapid fixer as a monobath -- which is approximately what Df96 is.

That said, you could probably get excellent results with Parodinal (or one of the commercial Rodinal clones) at 1:100 and agitating every third to fifth minute over around 18-20 minutes. That film's grain is so fine Rodinal won't make it visible.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jul 24, 2020

markjwyatt said:
If you look at the link from the OP, see the series of the young lady developed in different developers, D96 is the only one that shows a more full tonal range (maybe derates ISO?). It is also the developer that Lomography recommended for this film.

Paul Howell said:
It's also the developer listed by Kodak on the data sheet. But, I don't have D96 so an experiment with a divided developer.

But @Huss used Cinestill DF96 and not Kodak D96. They are not one and the same. DF96 is a monobath with a PQ develper formulation. D96 is a regular developer with a MQ formulation and is not a monobath.

pentaxuser · Jul 25, 2020

Does anyone have a comparison between this ISO 8 film and CMS20? My question is prompted by my thinking as follows: You pay a heavy price in film speed such that while on a reasonably bright day an ISO 20 film is handholdable, an ISO 8 is not. So for the sacrifice of speed you really do have to gain something that shows up in a print of "normal size" and not have to wait until you are into the realms of prints appreciably over say 20" x 24" before any difference becomes apparent

Thanks

pentaxuser

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jul 25, 2020

pentaxuser said:
You pay a heavy price in film speed such that while on a reasonably bright day an ISO 20 film is handholdable, an ISO 8 is not.

Adox CMS 20 ii requires a special developer to give full speed. Most users who use other developers have reported a speed of about 6.

Paul Howell · Jul 25, 2020

I have shot films like CMS20 which is a microfiche, tones were very different, as I understand it if you use the matching developer with CMS20 you better results. With a microfiche film you also get high resolution, I think CMS20 is 260 LPMM while Tmax 100 is 200 LPMM. less grain more detail, and good acuity, and a tripod what more do you need. I don't know is how either film will work with filters. ISO 6 and a orange filter, or polarizer?

Donald Qualls · Jul 25, 2020

I haven't used Fine Grain Release Positive, but I have shot CMS20 (the original version). CMS20 is repurposed microfilm stock, designed to produce a two-value image: clear film, or full Dmax black. Getting a good gray scale out of it requires exposing accurately and using a special low-contrast developer. In some ways, it's similar to Tech Pan. Fine Grain Release Positive is intended to provide a full range of gray tones, with approximately normal processing in cine developers (D96 and similar). With the correct development time, FGRP will produce a good range of gray tones in almost any common black and white developer, though like most films, some will produce more pleasing results than others. It's made very slow because light is readily available (it's easier to give lots of light than less, in the process of printing a film like P.30 or XX Negative to produce a positive for projection), and it needs to have the finest grain possible to avoid artifacting that can make a negative that isn't terribly grainy seem like sand and gravel on the screen (at 100:1 or larger magnification).

So, completely different original design criteria: highest possible resolution at contrast that favors text and line drawings (and, due to resolution, tolerates half-tone well) vs. gray scale that matches or exceeds that of the negative film used in camera, with fine enough grain not to produce artifacts and tractable in common cine developers. Both can produce excellent, even stunning results -- but comparing them is comparing apples and aubergines.

Spotmatic SP, Super Takumar 50/1.4, Adox CMS20 (original), EI 20, Caffenol LC+C, scan from 8x10 print

Henning Serger · Jul 25, 2020

ADOX CMS 20 II, ISO 20/14°, handheld, developed in dedicated ADOX Adotech developer:

Tom Kershaw · Jul 25, 2020

Impressive Henning; you must have a steady hand. Is this from one of your Nikon cameras?

Paul Howell · Jul 25, 2020

Great photo, might have to give CMS 20 with matching developer a whirl.

pentaxuser · Jul 25, 2020

Thanks for the photo, Henning. Judging by it I'd have to say that CMS 20 II doesn't see to have lost any gray scale which I think Donald seems to warn of. |I think he is saying that the Fantome film which is what the tread is about is intrinsically better at capturing the full range of gray scale whereas the likes of CMS 20 II is not and to get anywhere close to Fine Grain Release Positive which is what I assume the Fantome film to be you have to be more careful. It may be faster in its own tailor-made developer but it is more difficult to get the same quality of shots unless you are very careful

Have I got this correct Donald?

Then we move to examples and so far we have Donald's and yours. Frankly both look better to me than what Huss has shown us of Fantome in a variety of developers. So in a limited comparison using pictures I cannot see what advantages there are in this very slow Fantome film

Raghu has said that most users of CMS 20 II report its speed as being closer to 6 in other than the Adotech developer and yet Donald shot his CMS 20 II in Caffenol at 20 with no loss of film speed or problem with grayscale either. The problem I have is while there may be something special in the dedicated Adotech developer a speed boost of nearly 2 stop makes me a little sceptical about a speed of 6

It may be that Donald is much better/more careful over exposure than the average user which might suggest that CMS 20 II is much less forgiving than Fantome so Donald and Henning can I ask what you have to do in terms of exposure with CMS 20 II that is not required with say TMax or D100 and how difficult is it to achieve a full range of tones?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Henning Serger · Jul 25, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
Impressive Henning; you must have a steady hand. Is this from one of your Nikon cameras?

Thanks Paul and Tom.
No, unfortunately I don't have a steady hand (anymore). But that is one of the numerous reasons why I like the F6 so much: Its weight, excellent balance, excellent ergonomics and especially its perfectly dampend mirror and shutter mechanism (best mechanics I have ever experiencend in any camera) allow me to use significantly slower shutter speeds compared to all my other cameras.
Yes, this shot was made with the F6. But not with slow shutter speed. In the summer outdoors you can use shutter speeds of 1/125 to 1/250 and apertures from 2.8 to 5.6 with ISO 20/14°.

Best regards,
Henning

New, very low ISO film for anyone interested

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