New Reflex camera

[summicron1]

what was the name of that wizz-bang 4 by 5 lightweight camera, the one you supplied the lens/shutter for?

Took a cupla years longer than expected and left the makers hating life, hating kickstarter, hating their customers and themselves and the world in general and vowing never to have anything to do with the whole idea ever again?

On the other hand, ya never know. This one, however, strikes me as rather challenging, given the price point and stated technological abilities.

Is there a format for kickstarted videos? They all seem to be the same: dreamy music, close-ups of someone drawing something on paper, someone else doing cool stuff with computer graphics, pretty girls smiling at the alleged product which sure looks ready to go in the video even though it's just a plastic mock-up.

And so on.

 

[farmersteve]

what was the name of that wizz-bang 4 by 5 lightweight camera, the one you supplied the lens/shutter for?

Took a cupla years longer than expected and left the makers hating life, hating kickstarter, hating their customers and themselves and the world in general and vowing never to have anything to do with the whole idea ever again?

Travelwide Wanderlust camera. I remember how late to deliver and overworked they were. So much so, they delivered all the cameras they had promised to deliver and walked away from it. They promised to bring it to retail, but never did...

https://wanderlustcameras.com/

 

[summicron1]

Travelwide Wanderlust camera. I remember how late to deliver and overworked they were. So much so, they delivered all the cameras they had promised to deliver and walked away from it. They promised to bring it to retail, but never did...

https://wanderlustcameras.com/

yeah, they ran into a solid wall of production problems, material problems and logistical nightmares. Poor sods.

 

[AgX]

Surprisingly, as there hardly is to imagine a more simple LF camera.

 

[etn]

interchangable lens mount plate AND film back? Good luck with focus and registration issues with all those tolerances.

Probably doable from a technical point of view, but certainly not for a resale price of $300 (or whatever their target is).

 

[farmersteve]

Probably doable from a technical point of view, but certainly not for a resale price of $300 (or whatever their target is).

It was £350 for the beta camera and £399 for the "retail". Which around $500

 

[MattKing]

It looks like they are using an Arduino for the prototype, with intention to use a customized processor for production.
Which is attractive as an idea. If they can develop modification and customization ideas/prototypes with this sort of approach, and then incorporate the ones that work relatively easily into actual production, then you may very well have a viable product.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

... they have to work backwards from fully auto everything to fully manual - manual cameras are very hard especially when you are used to cameras doing everything for you.

There was an older guy at work once, mid 60's, who used a D800. Every week he'd tell me of a new "discovery" he had found on some website, such as setting a manual lens for hyperfocal distance. At one point I brought in an old photo magazine from the 1950's to show him all his discoveries were just basic photographic principles.

By age eleven I knew how to set aperture, shutter speed, and focus settings properly. I tell people that, aside from composition, those settings are all there is to play with. All the "modes" on their camera just adjust those parameters.

I really wish this Reflex camera were totally mechanical. I don't like the idea of non-replaceable batteries.

 

[etn]

It was £350 for the beta camera and £399 for the "retail". Which around $500

Still, this indicates a max bill of material and manufacturing costs of max $200. In my opinion, the target cost vs target spec/features is probably too aggressive to make a high quality product. I hope I will be proven wrong.

 

[Billy Axeman]

In the Comments section on the Kickstarter page are some interesting tidbits.
(last questions and answers are added on top).

One question (from mistral75) is about full aperture metering and stopped-down metering related to the removable lens plate:

Q (mistral75) - "Will Reflex and its I-Plates allow for automatic aperture preselection and full aperture metering or only for stopped-down metering, without any coupling between the camera and the lens's aperture?"

A (Reflex) - "@mistral75 good question, the only way for us to go around the specifics of each lens-system's aperture release control was to think in reverse. Each mount has an inverted DOF preview button, in other words, you dilate when you focus."
"@mistral75 to further answer your question, they are not coupled."

Of course when the lens is stopped down you cannot focus because there is not enough light, and it seems the inverted DOF preview button is on the left side so a follow-up question from Mistral75 is how you can open up your aperture and at the same time focus your lens.
(No answer yet).

EDIT: Is this the answer?
A (Reflex) - "@Mistral75 Yes, once we accepted that this was going to have to be a feature due to the nature of having to deal with brand-specific designs, it actually becomes quite a intuitive way of working as you have the correct DOF to start out with."

 

[Craig75]

There was an older guy at work once, mid 60's, who used a D800. Every week he'd tell me of a new "discovery" he had found on some website, such as setting a manual lens for hyperfocal distance. At one point I brought in an old photo magazine from the 1950's to show him all his discoveries were just basic photographic principles.

By age eleven I knew how to set aperture, shutter speed, and focus settings properly. I tell people that, aside from composition, those settings are all there is to play with. All the "modes" on their camera just adjust those parameters.

I really wish this Reflex camera were totally mechanical. I don't like the idea of non-replaceable batteries.

Totally agree. The number of permutations of settings on a camera is small so its pretty hard to go wrong especially compared to 300 or 400 page manuals of a digital camera.

But actually trying to get a clear explanation of those permutations and controls is bizarrely not so easy. Personally i think most books let their readers down massively.

 

[EdSawyer]

Maybe so from a technical point of view, but you would need the manufacturing quality & tolerances of say an RZ67 at the least (and that doesn't have an interchangable lens mount, just a back). That seems doubtful from them, no matter the price. Simply not enough talent there, from the looks of it.

RE: the "features":

Changing film mid-roll? Easily done with many cameras. Late-model EOS can leave the leader out if desired, automatically.

Using various brands of lenses on a single body? Easily done already. Almost everything can mount to an EOS body, including Canon FD even, with the right adapter. (Leica R, OM, Minolta SR (with mount conversion), Nikon F, Canon FD (with mount conversion), etc.)

built-in flash? Done already on many cameras.

Built-in LED? That would be the answer to the question no one is asking.

Probably doable from a technical point of view, but certainly not for a resale price of $300 (or whatever their target is).

 

[Ces1um]

The removable film back is an interesting concept. Being able to remove the film back mid roll and swapping out for a second film back with another type of film in it could be useful. Frankly though, I have enough film slr's. Can't see me backing this one even if the concept behind it is intriguing.

 

[Meyer Trioplan]

A 1/4000 top speed on an M42 SLR is something which I believe is unprecedented. I recall some Fujicas (ST801) hitting a 1/2000 speed, so this is a neat feature for those with M42 lenses that they want to shoot wide open.

 

[Arbitrarium]

Of course when the lens is stopped down you cannot focus because there is not enough light, and it seems the inverted DOF preview button is on the left side so a follow-up question from Mistral75 is how you can open up your aperture and at the same time focus your lens.

If the DOF button was on the right, under the shutter button, that would make sense and be infinitely more ergonomic than on the left. You'd naturally hold it down as you gripped the camera, so it wouldn't feel like you're missing anything. But on the left... unless you have very muscular fingers with extra joints, you have to swap between opening the aperture and focusing.

EDIT: They've just replied to a comment on their Kickstarter saying the photos are from an early iteration and the final model will have the DOF button on the right.

In terms of it being a camera for students who aren't allowed used gear (as their promo spiel says), or for newcomers to film photography, surely they should be learning on a camera with a normal control layout and shooting process? Learning on this means re-learning when they move on to use literally any other film SLR.

And as others have said, if it's dependent on a non-removable rechargeable battery, if it runs out while you're on a hike, it becomes a paperweight.

But it's drawing people in, and if it helps keep film alive then that can only be a good thing.

 

[Arbitrarium]

A 1/4000 top speed on an M42 SLR is something which I believe is unprecedented. I recall some Fujicas (ST801) hitting a 1/2000 speed, so this is a neat feature for those with M42 lenses that they want to shoot wide open.

Get yourself a Chinon CE II Memotron. M42 with aperture priority, up to 1/2000th, double exposure switch, exposure lock. Ridiculous camera. Mine has a meter that's off so I can't use anything faster than 400 film but that's fine.

 

[Billy Axeman]

.....
EDIT: They've just replied to a comment on their Kickstarter saying the photos are from an early iteration and the final model will have the DOF button on the right.....

It is still very awkward to have the lens always stopped down unless you open it. Every camera in the world must be stopped down for a good reason, it is ill-advised to do it otherwise. They are a bit vague saying "the position and function (push/slide) changes according to the lens".
As it looks now this camera has compromised ergonomics because they have a technical problem, which always wrong. A good design is characterized by elegant technical solutions AND good ergonomics.

 

[farmersteve]

The removable film back is an interesting concept. Being able to remove the film back mid roll and swapping out for a second film back with another type of film in it could be useful. Frankly though, I have enough film slr's. Can't see me backing this one even if the concept behind it is intriguing.

I smell a digital back at some point in the future if they can really pull off this thing.

 

[sbattert]

I smell a digital back at some point in the future if they can really pull off this thing.

+1

Not sure why there's any negative response to the kickstarter. I can understand the "not for me" response but it can only be good for film photography. I'm intrigued.

 

[andy_shoots_]

I don't believe the Reflex is the right direction to funnel resources and time into, It looks overly complicated. This camera cost the same as the Intrepid 8x10 camera, which looks to have simpler material and manufacturing. I would have liked to see a revamped Fuji GF670 or Makina 67 at a slightly more affordable price point ~$1000-$1500

 

[blockend]

Modular 35mm cameras don't have a convincing history, from the Contarex to the Rollei. It's easier to take a couple of small bodies than lens panels and backs. The Reflex looks like a solution to a non-existent problem. Pointing out its conceptual or practical shortcomings shouldn't be interpreted as being a killjoy and spoilsport.

It looks to be aimed at the use twice market, people who'll buy it as a talking point and return to their favourite cameras. The future of analogue is better assured by spending £350 on film.

 

[faberryman]

Pointing out its conceptual or practical shortcomings shouldn't be interpreted as being a killjoy and spoilsport.

Exactly.

 

[aleckurgan]

Modular 35mm cameras don't have a convincing history, from the Contarex to the Rollei.
The future of analogue is better assured by spending £350 on film.

Even better, spend it on photo paper!
As for the interchangable lens mounts and film backs, I think it's their idea of up-selling to increase the revenues. Kind of like the Yashica's crappy digifilm canisters.

 

[Richard Man]

Reliable shutter is a tough problem to solve. Reliable mirror return mechanism is a tough problem to solve. Precision manufacturing of tight tolerance (with 0.1mm? or whatever) body parts is a tough problem to solve. Good viewfinder is a tough problem to solve. And so on...

Arduino prototype, lithium rechargeable battery, USB-C etc. are noise.

They worked on the simple non-issues and ignore the bugaboos that will kill PRODUCTION quality. The BOM cost is typically about 1/3 to 1/4 of retail. There is no way anyone will see a working production quality camera from this effort. Not unless they add at least two zeroes to the KickStarter goal.

 

[blockend]

There is no way anyone will see a working production quality camera from this effort. Not unless they add at least two zeroes to the KickStarter goal.

That was my first thought.