New Kodak Film in 2021?

[Prest_400]

Interesting speculation.
TMZ in 120 is something that was talkrd about since its reintroduction and did not really exist.
Gold 200 in 120 would fill a gap as a more economical film tier now that Ektar and Portra are more $, and come to think how people actually like the lower grade Kodacolor 200 films plus the general interest with medium format. And then, color neg has a big demnd nowadays.
Plus-X and Tri-X 320, the latter is quite niche but it was here in 120 and 220.

Shall see.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

It would be nice for KA to get their act together before jumping onto any new introductions. It sounds more like a flailing shampoo factory trying to convince market they have a new one coming that will reverse hair loss.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

You might be both happy and unhappy, because I would guess that 35mm only is a real possibility.

I'll be very happy even with 35mm, because there then could be the possibility of 4x5. If not, I'll shoot 35!

 

[LeftCoastKid]

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The only “new” film that would interest me would be Ektachrome 400. 200 doesn’t seem to offer any clear advantage over 100 for me.
Snip

+1. The return of either of either E400 or something resembling (but improving, obviously) P800/1600 would allow me to retire my D800. I'd almost be willing to give up a kidney for either.
And, of course, I'd love to have the opportunity to shoot some HIE.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

If KA is looking to launch another film, why don't they launch current films in more variety of formats? No matter how we slice it, it is not any harder to different slit an already produced emulsion vs. getting a new one out.

New or "new" film means they are looking for another group of interest they think may not have yet bough into film, as in attempt to expand customer base. If this is the idea, then it is an utterly stupid one. Film shooters are primarily lacking format choice, and if this gets better coverage, demand for another emulsion would likely rise by itself. I'm of course implying that "getting their act together" means some sanity in pricing as well.

But I see a new plastic camera from KA before anything logical happens.

 

[MattKing]

If KA is looking to launch another film, why don't they launch current films in more variety of formats? No matter how we slice it, it is not any harder to different slit an already produced emulsion vs. getting a new one out.

With the exception of sheet film formats, adding new formats frequently involves significant development work, because any change of substrate - e.g. from 135 to 120 and/or 4x5 - requires re-formulation of the coatings themselves.
If you are speaking of some of the discontinued film formats like 110, 126 or 127, they require entirely new equipment for confectioning, along with manufacture of cartridges, spools and backing paper, all of which mean substantial capital investments and/or minimum order costs. The likely volumes for those would be unlikely to support those costs.
Offering a greater variety of 35mm roll lengths would be fairly simple, if retailers believe they would sell.
220 is a non-starter, because of the capital cost of the confectioning equipment, and the minimum order requirements of the supplier of the leaders and trailers.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

@MattKing I'm not discounting challenges, yet cannot see coating new emulsion as any less challenging or costly, while going into the unknown. And I was getting at coated film without even changing substrate (what s passable to different format), Confectioning outside of making it all work, is still hardware not chemistry and coating challenges. And main point still being KA appears to have lost touch with products they try to sell and getting new out is not an indication of improved market understanding.

 

[MattKing]

And main point still being KA appears to have lost touch with products they try to sell

In what way have they lost touch with the films they sell - the remaining part of their photographic business (after the sale of the Kodak branded colour paper and photo chemical business to Sino Promise Group).?

 

[Deleted member 88956]

I'll leave it at that. When prices stop making sense, it is typically the first indicator of being lost. And current pricing out of KA is already in that territory, more coming. We can be happy all we want for some of their great films still being on the market. I'm not buying price increases as being anything but troubled management not knowing what tomorrow brings. Rumors of "new" product, when you cannot show current line up makes it stand, is not good PR.

 

[NB23]

... that moment when a photo forum transforms into a boring “business management” forum.

I couldn’t care less about the machinery and coating costs/format. Who cares?

We want new films, we want good films. That’s all. How they come up with them is frankly unimportant.

 

[Bikerider]

Someone had to do it...

There is ALWAYS one!

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Do you think it´s not worth engaging with? Not meant in any attacking way, I´m just curious. I mean, it´s the only magazine of its kind currently, and it´s a lot of work and comittment publishing a quarterly 100+ page print mag like that, that´s not only filled with portfolios but proper articles, documentaries from all over the world with a perspective on the bigger picture.

I absolutely think it is worth engaging with. I'm a subscriber, and appreciate the broad range of content, from the high quality portfolios (helped by your print quality), to camera articles, and even subjects that I'm not directly involved with like Super8 cine film.

My point is that manufacturers or distributors make choices about what platforms to engage with, whether social media, print magazines, or this web forum. Seeing full page Kodak adverts in Silvergrain Classics gives a sense of optimism about the future of film and darkroom products.

 

[Bikerider]

One film that has not been mentioned is the ultra fine grain (but high contrast) Kodak Technical Pan. Slow, if I recall only 20 ISO but with the right low contrast developer it was absolutely superb. Uprate the ISO to 50 but retain as much of the attributes of the original as possible. That won't happen I think because it will be a limited market, likewise with HIE and if they are not going to make profit making sales of these specialist films - it just isn't going to materialise. Much the same as the reintroduction of Kodachrome in whatever shape. There will be no vast market for it so again not a winner.

Kodak do not have a 'old technology' medium speed B&W film, which is why a successor to Plus X to run alongside their current superb 100iso T Max, may be in the running in all formats. Ilford have them in the shape of Delta 100 and FP4+ and both sell very well..

The biggest investment they could make is to reduce the retail price of their films to a more reasonable level which would simulate more sales. The cost of TriX is just one step away from pricing itself out of the market. How can it be more expensive to make than other B&W films or indeed colour negative film. Buying in bulk rolls used to be the cheaper option. but a 30m roll costs the same or more than the same number of 36 exp cassettes you could self reload.

Company Accountants have a lot to answer for. They know the cost of everything, but the true value of none!

 

[ludwighagelstein]

More accurately, worked for Eastman or one of its international subsidiaries, like Kodak Limited (UK) or Kodak Canada or ...

Yes, of course. The larger business structures are complicated though, and in the end it doesnt really matter if it was Kodak Ltd in England or the subsidiary in Canada or Mexico or wherever. The important thing is that people who do care are still working in both companies and the whole affair is a bit more complicated than often pointed out in discussions like these. Simply saying Alaris don´t care is simply a lie. The same applies for the notion that KA were moneygrabbers of some sort. The fact that production and distribution is spread over two companies creates a whole batteries of problems in its own right, and simply saying Alaris would unilaterally just ramp up prices because of greed is not only an oversimplification, but just not true either. Good people who care work in both companies and are proud what they´ve achieved. I bet both companies have employees who don´t give a flying f*ck either, but that´s just the nature of human beings being employed in any company. Complaining about prices is another thing as well: With pro-film, especially slide, prices aren´t so high in relation: In 2003 a 135-36 roll of E100 GX cost around 13 USD as listed in the Kodak Catalog. In today´s money and corrected for inflation that´s about 17 USD. While 120/220 was generally less expensive than pro 135 because of insane volumes and the need to compete in a highly dynamic market with a de-facto duopoly between Kodak and Fuji and the latter continuously trying to undercut EKC pricing to the point of unsustainabilty. The realities of producing film sustainably today, however, are different than 2000 and 2005, when in an effort to secure dwindling market share both companies reduced prices, gave huge discounts to large retailers etc just to stay competitive a little longer. The mass market with the insane volumes of the early 2000 is gone though, and in order to remain in business, they have to be able to produce cost effective. Alone in 2020 the silver price increased quite a lot, and with investment in man and machine adjusted pricing is a sad necessity. For those people constantly whining about film prices: Go develop a time machine, travel back to 2009 and buy a whole pallet of slightly expired film from a retailer otherwise discarding it for 10 bucks and then resell it for double the original price on ebay as "something super rare". Go on, that´s where the moneygrabbers in this little niche of ours are, just to give an example.

 

[ludwighagelstein]

I absolutely think it is worth engaging with. I'm a subscriber, and appreciate the broad range of content, from the high quality portfolios (helped by your print quality), to camera articles, and even subjects that I'm not directly involved with like Super8 cine film.

My point is that manufacturers or distributors make choices about what platforms to engage with, whether social media, print magazines, or this web forum. Seeing full page Kodak adverts in Silvergrain Classics gives a sense of optimism about the future of film and darkroom products.

Thanks for the thumbs up regarding the magazine. Very much appreciated.

 

[MattKing]

Yes, of course. The larger business structures are complicated though, and in the end it doesnt really matter if it was Kodak Ltd in England or the subsidiary in Canada or Mexico or wherever

The reason it does matter, is that the distribution system has real problems, which results in retail prices and availability being really inconsistent, depending on geography. Despite being right next to the US, and having a duty free trade agreement in place, the availability and cost of Kodak film is terrible when compared with the US.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

The cost of TriX is just one step away from pricing itself out of the market

Based on what? Show us some sales data.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The reason it does matter, is that the distribution system has real problems, which results in retail prices and availability being really inconsistent, depending on geography. Despite being right next to the US, and having a duty free trade agreement in place, the availability and cost of Kodak film is terrible when compared with the US.

Move here and become a citizen.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The cost of TriX is just one step away from pricing itself out of the market.

How can that be? I am on a fixed income and I buy ten or twenty at a time, regularly. What did you have for breakfast? That is where your comment must have come from.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

I think they've been working on getting P3200 to 120 for a while. It may be news to some but the speculation is that the Lomo 100, 400, and 800 films are rebranded and specially cut Kodak consumer films. Shouldn't be hard to brand them as Gold and put them to market at a price lower than Portra, but then again they may not wish to be selling lower cost alternatives to the pro stocks.

How about that Super 8 camera? The Super 8 processing service? E6 chemistry? Promises not kept. I love big K but they need to tighten up their QC at this current moment and keep their promises.

 

[ludwighagelstein]

The reason it does matter, is that the distribution system has real problems, which results in retail prices and availability being really inconsistent, depending on geography. Despite being right next to the US, and having a duty free trade agreement in place, the availability and cost of Kodak film is terrible when compared with the US.

I think we got it wrong: I meant that it doesn´t matter for which former Kodak subsidiary a current Alaris employee has worked before the chapter 11. That was about them being comitted to film. I fully agree with your point though, the current distribution is unfortunate as there are vast regional differences.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

How about that Super 8 camera? The Super 8 processing service? E6 chemistry? Promises not kept. I love big K but they need to tighten up their QC at this current moment and keep their promises.

On the E6 chemisty. The Fuji Hunt 6/7 bath 5L kit is excellent quality and keeps reasonably well.

 

[ludwighagelstein]

I think they've been working on getting P3200 to 120 for a while. It may be news to some but the speculation is that the Lomo 100, 400, and 800 films are rebranded and specially cut Kodak consumer films. Shouldn't be hard to brand them as Gold and put them to market at a price lower than Portra, but then again they may not wish to be selling lower cost alternatives to the pro stocks.

How about that Super 8 camera? The Super 8 processing service? E6 chemistry? Promises not kept. I love big K but they need to tighten up their QC at this current moment and keep their promises.

The Super 8 Camera and the Super 8 Processing Service are Eastman Kodak and not Kodak Alaris things though. In terms of the camera, the pandemic did quite a bit there, and we actually had the prototype on hands early this year. As far as I understand the pandemic halted the mass production of the camera since the prototypes were made in the EU and the final camera will be made in the US. In terms of E6 chemistry, I figure the Tetenal bancrupcy and the MBO caused an issue there too, since Kokak Alaris chemistry isn´t made by Kodak but several other manufacturers and since the sale of the paper and photochemicals division not even their thing anymore.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

The Super 8 Camera and the Super 8 Processing Service are Eastman Kodak and not Kodak Alaris things though. In terms of the camera, the pandemic did quite a bit there, and we actually had the prototype on hands early this year. As far as I understand the pandemic halted the mass production of the camera since the prototypes were made in the EU and the final camera will be made in the US. In terms of E6 chemistry, I figure the Tetenal bancrupcy and the MBO caused an issue there too, since Kokak Alaris chemistry isn´t made by Kodak but several other manufacturers and since the sale of the paper and photochemicals division not even their thing anymore.

True though since Kodak and KA goes hand in hand to some extent I can't help but conflate the two. Good news on the camera, I really hope it comes to market. It's not likely to pull me away from my Beaulieu 4008 ZM, but Super 8 is a wonderful format I wish more people were able to work with.

 

[mshchem]

That business, or at least support for it, is now owned by Sino Promise Group - Kodak Alaris just sold it.
Eastman Kodak has had nothing to do with anything other than movie labs since the bankruptcy settlement.

I was referring to, in the USA, the 1950's 60's 70's when EKCo.had 2 labs in California, 1 in Chicago, Rochester, I can't remember, but I believe there were 6 total. This was before EKCo spun off the processing in the United States to Qualex or whatever it was called. Canada didn't ruin the customer experience by banning processing included with film purchase. The prints I have that were processed in Chicago from Ektacolor-S film were perfect. After Kodak spun off their processing in the USA it was a roll of the dice as to what came back. Even if you used so called pro labs. 3 rolls shot under same conditions, came back looking noticeably different. Today the lack of optical printing with color,you are better off using an inkjet than RA4 commercial printing. MHOFWIW